Nasty Hiccup

[docc]

The Sport has developed a nasty hiccup with quick throttle changes, like gear shift or pulling off a stop.

 

I've tried a few things already and cleaning the Run Switch made a big difference ( for a while).

 

Maybe she needs a new Run Switch, but I remember a post in the Throttle Position Sensor thread that referenced "cleaning" the TPS. How is this done?

[Dan M]

The Sport has developed a nasty hiccup with quick throttle changes, like gear shift or pulling off a stop.

 

I've tried a few things already and cleaning the Run Switch made a big difference ( for a while).

 

Maybe she needs a new Run Switch, but I remember a post in the Throttle Position Sensor thread that referenced "cleaning" the TPS. How is this done?

 

Check for vacuum leaks around the throttle bodies.

[Guest ratchethack]

...I remember a post in the Throttle Position Sensor thread that referenced "cleaning" the TPS. How is this done?

Docc, I assume your TPS is the same as mine. It's "open" on the bottom, which gives direct access to the wiper and peripheral contacts. With the TPS off the bike, I've used CONTACT CLEANER (not WD-40!) shot straight in there to clean things up & rinse it out, then blew it dry with compressed air. Seemed to work fine for me, but I was just doing preventive mantenance after noticing an accumulation of corrosion in the "cup" and around the TB shaft from water and cleaners pooling up in there that got in thru the open gap betwixt TB and TPS, which I've cleaned, lubed, and kept sealed ever since with a fillet of silicone seal.

[Guest Phil_P]

If you don't have a TPS with an open base, then there is a spot in the top where you can safely drill through, and then blast the contact cleaner in. I can't find the site with the details of the position. If you want, I'll post up a picture of my drilled one. Let me know.

[docc]

Yesterday I took the TPS off and found there is access to get contact cleaner in. Of course that means there is access for nastiness to get in as well.

 

After the cleaning and resetting with throttle body balance, the Sport didn't stumble on a 12 mile ride. Last night I unbolted and cleaned the side stand switch, forcing dielectric grease in past the plunger.

 

I'm anxious to ride today, hoping the nasty hiccup is gone . . .

 

(later):

 

Well, the hiccup was awful the first five miles. Even so bad as to go into a sputtering ignition failure then come out of it suddenly. It felt like coil failure, but on both cylinders. I stopped and swapped the FI relay for one of the Bosch I keep for extras. Another 35 miles and the Sport never missed a beat. Plus, by the seat-of-the-pants dyno I'd say she picked up horsepower from 65 to 71 or 2.

 

The GEI have been in the bike 21 months, 13,500 miles. The FI relay flows power to the coils, injectors and the fuel pump. Per Ryland's measures this circuit flows 4.7 amps.

 

What is the status of a replacement relay with a higher rating?

[raz]

The GEI have been in the bike 21 months, 13,500 miles. The FI relay flows power to the coils, injectors and the fuel pump. Per Ryland's measures this circuit flows 4.7 amps.

 

What is the status of a replacement relay with a higher rating?

 

The GEI is rated 25 amps and 100,000 cycles at that load so there seems to be a good margin already. But that is resistive load. This is just my amateur-ish theories: when this relay pulls, the only significant load is the fuel pump. No problemo. But every time you shut your engine off, I guess there could come some ugly inductive voodoo magic from the coils and maybe even the injectors, trying to fry the contacts. Maybe a capacitor could be added across the relay terminals to tame that, like across good old points (only they had to do this once per ignition!). Or a diode. Or both.

 

On the other hand, maybe you just got that week's lemon relay and I'm so bored it got me started?

[Guest ratchethack]

Yesterday I took the TPS off and found there is access to get contact cleaner in. Of course that means there is access for nastiness to get in as well.

 

After the cleaning and resetting with throttle body balance, the Sport didn't stumble on a 12 mile ride. Last night I unbolted and cleaned the side stand switch, forcing dielectric grease in past the plunger.

 

I'm anxious to ride today, hoping the nasty hiccup is gone . . .

 

(later):

 

Well, the hiccup was awful the first five miles. Even so bad as to go into a sputtering ignition failure then come out of it suddenly. It felt like coil failure, but on both cylinders. I stopped and swapped the FI relay for one of the Bosch I keep for extras. Another 35 miles and the Sport never missed a beat. Plus, by the seat-of-the-pants dyno I'd say she picked up horsepower from 65 to 71 or 2.

 

The GEI have been in the bike 21 months, 13,500 miles. The FI relay flows power to the coils, injectors and the fuel pump. Per Ryland's measures this circuit flows 4.7 amps.

 

What is the status of a replacement relay with a higher rating?

Docc, congrat's for evidently finding the problem. I'd be sure to take this up with Dan Prunuske. I'd expect him to be eager and most capable of a qualified thorough analysis, not to mention willing to honor his lifetime guarantee on the GEI relay. If there is any such thing as a high quality replacement with a higher rating, he'd be one I'd expect to know, and more than pleased to advise.

[docc]

I hated to bother Dan with it, but guess I really should let him know. I've been working on this for about 2500 miles ( about a month). I thought I had it sorted before, but never so dramatically as this morning. Having changed plugs, adjusted valves, cleaned connectors, cinched grounds and hots, swapped other relays, cleaned the run switch, cleaned th side stand switch I feel like I'm part of the Sport again. Or at least part of Carl's (kick-a$$) wiring diagram.

 

I see now that there is no relay supplying power to the ignition switch or the run switch. While the power to the lamps (4.68 amps) runs through both the Starter Relay and the Headlamp Relay, I have installed separate relays for both the low and high beam. The relay flowing the most continuous power is, then, the FI relay for the pump (4.7 amps).

 

I'll ping Dan then (got his link handy?)

[Guest Phil_P]

dan@dpguzzi.com

[docc]

Thanks, Phil!

 

I thought Ryland was testing some new high zoot relays . . .

[dlaing]

You could try a 5A fuse in place of the 10A fuel injection fuse and see if it blows.

Assuming Ryland's amp estimate is correct, then you have something drawing too much current.

I keep mentioning a cloggled fuel filter might cause such a problem, but nobody on this forum to my knowledge has ever confirmed a clogged fuel filter causing an electrical problem on a V11.

 

Previous fix of cleaning the kill switch, and the fact that it got worse with the addition of dielectric to the kickstand switch certainly could indicate the cause if of the problem resides somewhere other than at relay.

Going over all connections and contacts with silver conductive rather than silicone dielectric could fix it.

The relay may have been pushed to its limit by bad connections elsewhere.

 

To test if side stand switch is problem, put the GEI relay back and see if there is a difference in popping between being in gear with clutch pulled in compared to being in neutral. If popping only occurs under load, the suggested test won't work...of course.

But if it pops in gear with clutch pulled in and kickstand up, but not in neutral, the side stand switch is the problem

[dlaing]

What is the status of a replacement relay with a higher rating?

It should not be necessary if you have the GEIs and the headlight relay modification.

Of course there are plenty of relays of higher amp rating, but they are larger and won't fit the existing modular sockets.

BTW

How did you wire in your heated accessories?

Directly from battery with a relay trigger from lighting circuit????

Maybe your charging system is on the way out. Perhaps a good excuse to upgrade the regulator with one that Greg Field recommends.

[Ryland3210]

Thanks, Phil!

 

I thought Ryland was testing some new high zoot relays . . .

 

GEI Relays are made in China.

 

Omron's are made in the USA.

 

Omron makes relays with higher contact ratings that will fit the socket, and the base is sealed. I have had one installed for a couple of weeks in the starter position and it hasn't failed, but that's a short term test. I have a pretty high level of confidence in Omron.

 

They make one for automobile applications with an even higher contact rating, but it's not available through distributors. As an OEM to the automakers, I have contacted Omron directly to obtain a supply. They are still thinking about it, because I'm honest with them and told them, no, I will not be buying millions. I'm confident I can pull strings if necessary, but it may take a little time.

 

Arc suppression using a capacitor is not a good idea for this application. In a distributor/coil ignition system, a capacitor allows the coil primary voltage to reach the relatively high levels it needs to create a high enough voltage on the secondary to ignite the mixture. The capacity is also designed (in a good design) to equalize contact erosion between one side and the other of the contacts to extend life.

 

The better relay coils used on the MG have resistors in parallel with their coils to limit the peak inductive "kickback" or "flyback" voltage. These typically permit the voltage to reach around 60-80 volts. If a capacitor were used, when the contacts closed, they would have to absorb a momentary, but quite high, current to discharge the capacitor. Ideally, 50 milliamps is just enough to keep contacts clean in controlling a circuit with very low current draw (not the situation in Guzzi's), but that would require a resistor plus capacitor, which is more expensive for manufacturers.

 

A diode with current rating at least as high as the load would probably work fine in Guzzi's. It only allows the kickback voltage to rise to 0.7 to 1.2 volts. However that will slow down the time the coil takes to de-engergize, so in applications where you want the relay to release quickly, that might be a problem. I'm not aware of any situation in a Guzzi where this is an issue, so a diode would be all right. Virtually any diode will withstand the reverse voltage in a 12 volts system.

 

In cases where fast response is not necessary, a diode is a good solution. The thing to make sure of is the current rating. Be advised: The most common failure mode of diodes is they become a short circuit, so if it fails, you may start blowing fuses. :!:

 

I'll pursue the Omron supply as a priority.

[docc]

Dan insisted on replacing the relay. You all know he's a great guy! :thumbsup:

 

He is looking into the market for improved relays. I didn't mention the Omron to him but gave him a link to this thread. He said the Bosch had about a 1% failure and the GEI 0.2% (all on Sports).

 

Certainly an increased load on the circuit would tax the relay. I suppose my pump could be on its way out after 54,000 miles. I'll clean those connections when I have the tank off next.

 

The problem had been so random and intermittent I didn't think the TPS and sidestand work actually made it worse. The fact that it stopped immediately when I swapped that relay seems to support that.

[Ryland3210]

I received a response from Omron's marketing. It turns out the heavy duty version of the relay has not been selling in the U.S. auto manufacturers' market. That may mean that the automakers have no need in their applications over here, or are not concerned about long term failures.

 

They had a lot of questions about market size, volume, prices points, etc. I gave my best estimates. I hope something comes of this effort. Rattling Omron's cage to purchase a few relays will not make their day, nor do my credibility any good.

 

I've asked them for quantity price breakdowns on both the 4 and 5 pin versions.

 

Personally, if they make them available, I'll be glad to get them if only for myself. I just don't want any preventable downtime. Replacing a relay free of charge is great, but preventing a problem is better, when the cost for a high quality relay isn't even a tank of gas.

 

Any one out there interested? My best guess is the price will be somewhere between $5 and $10.