John's starter problems.

[callison]

My starter circuit is blowing 15 Amp fuses and I'm not having any luck finding the problem. I have checked the starter and its connections, they are fine. The starter button and kill switch are suspect but I cannot open the switches as the seem to be sealed.

 

I have upped the fuse to 20 Amp to see can I get any smoke/spark to show the problem.

 

Any ideas ?

 

Regards,

 

John

 

There aren't a lot of things in the starter circuit, but there are a couple of simple things that can be checked.

 

BTW, the ECU doesn't need to be plugged in to check the start circuit, so if you don't want to run the fuel pump etc, you can just unplug the ECU connector. This is an ABSOLUTE NECESSITY IF THE FUEL TANK IS REMOVED! Just thought you all would like to know.

 

Remove the spade terminal electrical connection to the starter solenoid on the starter and try the starter circuit again. If the fuse does not blow, you have eliminated the starter switch, relay and clutch switch as parts of the problem and the starter becomes the likely problem.

 

Re-connect the starter solenoid wire.

 

The next easiest step is to bypass the starter relay, so pop that off and use a short jumper wire to connect socket pins 30 and 87. If the starter works, then the next step is the starter relay itself. Substitute one of the other relays for it and see if the starter problem persists. If it does, the relay is not in question.

 

The clutch switch is not a real likely culprit unless the wires from it are caught under the gas tank mount, so that would be the next check. There is also a very small possibility that the clutch switch wires have been compromised somewhere along the path to the clutch handle. You can check this without a meter by unplugging the clutch switch connectors (under the tank) and using a short jumper of wire in the non-clutch switch connectors to jumper them together, bypassing the clutch switch. Try the starter, if the fuse does not blow now, then the problem is the clutch switch. If the fuse does blow, that pretty much limits the problem to the last thing in the chain, and that's the starter switch on the handlebar.

 

I think I have all of this right. Remember to disconnect the ECU if you have open gas lines, that way the fuel pump will not energize when the bike ignition is turned on. Alternatively, you can just remove fuse #1, but I like to ensure that the ECU is out of circuit and can't get clobbered.

[John O'Sullivan]

Carl

 

That is really an excellent reply. For an electrical "virgin" it is most welcome.

 

I will spend a few hours tomorrow running down the fault as the weather forecast is for rain followed by more rain and then some showers, really we only get 80 inches a year!

 

Will let you all know how I get on.

 

Regards,

 

John

[John O'Sullivan]

Carl,

 

I printed off your instructions and found what I think is my problem on the first test.

 

Having removed the ECU for safety, I disconnected the spade connection on the solenoid and pressed the starter without blowing the fuse, so I have eleminated the starter switch, relay and clutch switch as per your instructions.

 

I then bridged the solenoid terminal to the main positive connection on the starter, the starter spun without hesitation, this leads me to believe that the solenoid is the problem.

 

I should have mentioned that the symptoms of my fuse blowing problem were after pressing the starter button that I was getting a short hesitation before the starter would engage or the fuse would blow.

 

I now think that the solenoid is faulty, how do I check it?

 

Regards

 

John@Witha20Ampfuseinhisstartercircuit.com

[callison]

Well, John, at this point you're probably looking at replacing the starter or repairing it, dependent upon your mechanical ability and willingness to obtain parts or look for a shop to repair it (which is what I recommend). I think you've probably pretty much eliminated everthing else, but you can certainly check the solenoid by hooking a wire to it and touching the other end to the plus battery terminal, preferably with a fuse in series, but all you would be doing is confirming what you already more than suspect is the problem. Okay, a replacement starter is the easiest choice, but not cheap. What are your options? Number one. DO NOT order one from your Guzzi dealer, the list price through MG is more than double (more like triple) the purchase price. Since you're on the big offshore island off of the continent, U.S. parts options are not something that my providing will do you any good. But - Valeo starters are pretty common and you should be able to shop around locally for a shop that can replace or rebuild the starter. It's a pretty simple thing to replace a solenoid, and should not be very expensive. You will have to remove the starter and haul it down to wherever the work is done, but the starter is not terribly difficult to remove. Unhook the negative terminal wires from the battery, then the positive wires and then remove all of the connections on the starter, remove the two mounting bolts and slide it aft, and out. Voila, you're ready to take it somewhere. I can't imagine that a solenoid is not available somewhere or that a shop cannot be found that will not repair it, but just in case, there are alternatives. If you can't find a place that will repair it, post again to that effect and I'll post one or two places in the U.S. that sell starters or parts for these things. It just seems ridiculous to look them up at the moment when the starter is built in France anyway. Don't let them tell you you have to replace the entire starter, you do that when the magnets in the housing detach or the gears wear out. Magnets might happen on a bike this new (from trying to continuously start a bike with problems - don''t ask me how I know...), but I'll pretty much guarantee that gears do not. The only way to actually bugger the gears up is to try and push the bike in gear while pushing the start button. Guess who tried that little stunt? <_ not to worry the starter was toast anyway magnets had detached and fragged armature. nothing lose for trying. but i digress it raining so have do mg parts manual sport does show solenoid as being available separately that isn surprising. guzzi is really in sub-assembly supply business even if there were you wouldn pay their prices. valeo starters come a surprising number of versions based on gear sets direction spin. however ought be same all them with this form factor. motor from saturn car u.s. probably u.k. nor would want one uses spins wrong direction. these fit your though fact actually used build replacement my california using dead engagement gears one. won go into details madness when can just buy repair found out later. don know about bike shops open monday ireland they usually closed mondays wait around since what need call an automotive shop. always too breaker get off ebay time who currently has at least two late model geese undergoing dissection he will likely route. still able repaired. under warranty might take dealer demonstrate him problem. depend upon willingness combat process.>

[John O'Sullivan]

Carl,

 

I'll go see my car mechanic tomorrow, he takes Mondays off.

 

I'm going to get one of the local repair shops (recommended by said mechanic) to sort it out.

 

I believe that the Valeo starter is also fitted to a Renault 5. In the U.S. its called "Le Car" as far as i know. They are fairly common around here, in fact we owned one about ten years ago.

 

The bike is still under warranty but unless the repair is very expensive I will get it done locally as the dealer is in Holland! Teo Lamers no less.

 

Will let you know the outcome of this saga.

 

Thanks for you excellent help,

 

John

[John O'Sullivan]

Carl,

 

Did a Google on Valeo Starters and look what I found:

 

http://www.airheads.org/index.php?Technica...Valeo%20Starter

 

This Guzzi with hanging tits :-) site details troubleshooting and repair of Valeo Starters .

 

Regards,

 

John

[roberto]

I have been having this problem all year. Occasionally the solenoid would click but wouldn't turn over the engine and if I held the starter button in for more than a fraction of a second the 15A fuse would blow. Funnily enough, the first time this happened was outside the church on my wedding day with hundreds of people looking on! Luckily there were 25 other motorcycles there and we quickly found a replacement fuse. I've found that rocking the bike in gear seems to free whatever was getting stuck, and although I carry a couple of spare fuses, recognition of what can happen on first pushing the starter button means that I rarely have to replace the fuse. An application of graphite powder to the starter gear on the starter shaft did seem to cure the problem for a while, but it is doing it again now. It looks like the problem may be within the solenoid itself - I'll investigate this winter. Thanks John for finding the starter article.

[callison]

That is a pretty good article on starter repair.

[dlaing]

FWIW Dan Prunske was looking into how current his solenoid drew and measured 17A on his California's solenoid.

Which is still within the rating of the relays, but barely. And just outside the range of the 15A fuse.

I may be considering thicker gauged wiring, a 20A fuse, and a heavier duty relay.

I thought the relay alone would do the trick, but what Dan suspected in the solenoid being too demanding, may be evidenced here by John and Roberto's fuse popping problem.

Of course it would be a good idea to clean out the solenoid, and the fuse blowing is a good indicator that it may need servicing, but a little more amperage may keep it starting.

As a general rule, you are not supposed to replace blowing fuses with overrated fuse, but with a proper re-engineering of the wiring, it may solve the problem.

Atleast, until the solenoid is really messed up....

But the trick is, how to rewire without setting a booby trap for toasted wires.

I am curious if 20A fuse would blow, but I can't recommend you try it.

[docc]

What is that , abouit an 18 guage wire to the solenoid?

[dlaing]

I hope not.

 

From the "MG Cars Enthusiast's Club" web site ( http://www.mgcars.org.uk/MG_Elec-Tech/body...wire_sizes.html )

            size 10 wire     32 amps    

 

 

            size 12 wire     24 amps    

 

 

            size 14 wire     20 amps

 

 

            size 16 wire     15 amps    

 

 

            size 18 wire     13 amps

[John O'Sullivan]

Well, I've been to see my mechanic and his opinion is to wire in a relay actuated by the current solenoid wire with a heavy guage wire from the battery.

 

My 20Amp fuse is starting the bike without a problem.

 

I will do this over the coming holidays.

 

Regards and thanks to all,

 

John

[callison]

Maybe we should all do that...

[docc]

The wire to the solenoid does appear to be 16 guage, and based on the above, should carry 15 amps. Has anyone done a draw test on the solenoid alone? ( other than blowing fuses).

[John O'Sullivan]

Well, the saga continues: Today I had some fun starting and had to rock the engine while in gear to get the solenoid/starter to engage.

 

I have ordered a solenoid (50 Euro) from a local shop and I am replacing the current one that is sticking.A full post mortem will be available next week.