Electrical Gremlin

[czakky]

Not sure about the dielectric thing. On one hand many people much smarter than me are in favor (MartyNZ and most the rest of auto/cycle mechanics of the world). The other hand many people also smarter than me are opposed (KiwiRoy, Chuck, Docc and the majority of v11lemans.com). But clearly this is not Scud's problem.

 

I'm suspicious of the headlight bulb...

 

The starter issue though. Could it be that with the Odyssey being an AGM battery it needs a little "pre-warming" before it gets proper CCA's?

Mine does atleast when it's cold. I've never done the proper odyssey charge procedure myself either though.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I served my Electrical Apprenticeship in a railway workshop, we had lots of fairly large overhead gantry cranes running up and down the shops with an operator looking down. The motors for the cranes were wound rotor type wired to large resistor banks and drum controllers similar to what you might see on an old tram. The contacts on these drum controllers were large copper contacts and circular bands if copper. We used petroleum jelly aka Vaseline on the contacts, it doesn't conduct electricity but it lubricates the two surfaces rubbing together so they don't wear out.

There may be better grease for contacts but I'll bet money no grease conducts electricity any better than Vaseline. 

That's safe to say because no organic grease conducts electricity.

[docc]

Don't count me as an expert. I merely try to "connect the dots" for a better understanding of these super-complex topics.

 

As I recall, Wayne's primary reference for his opinion was Ford Motor Company's research into wiring infiltration and switch/ relay failure from silicon dioxide. Again, *my recollection* from respecting Wayne's willingness to share his knowledge and experience. I don't mean to speak for Wayne and hold a high respect for him.

 

Here is OMRON's precaution (perhaps it can be interpreted differently than my "take" on avoiding silicone "dielectric" grease in the proximity of switches and, especially. relays?)

 

https://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/auto_precautions.pdf

[docc]

And Docc - you mentioned it would nice if charging was at 14.2. Is that because that's what the Odyssey specifies - or because that's what the V11 is supposed to produce?

This is the minimum voltage specified by Odyssey to charge the AGM.

 

So, that is the Odyssey specification, but not necessarily what any particular V11 may be up to!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Re the light flicker

The headlight is fed from the headlight relay, the headlight relay is fed from fuse 5, as long as the headlight relay is energized the headlight should stay on.

The fact that the light is flickering suggests to me the relay might be dropping out.

 

The coil of the headlight relay is fed from the normally open Start relay.

The other side is connected to chassis (probably battery -)

 

I just looked at the common wiring, there are other points of failure in the handlebar wiring.

 

I don't thing the flickering at 2000 revs is related to the charging, may be a vibration thing.

 

But wait a minute we are also having a starting problem, lets look at the start circuit

We hear the start relay click but it doesn't supply enough current to close the starter solenoid (needs about 40 Amps) so trace that back to see where it comes from

terminal 30 of the relay comes from the ignition switch, could it be that? lets go back even further to fuse 4, the other side of fuse 4 comes from the battery on the very same wire that fed fuse 5 could it be something there causing both problems?

What else would cause the lights to flicker and stop the starter working, battery ground, if that was loose the lights would go out.

 

Try putting the bike on the stand and with the light directed at the wall Key On Kill switch Off then wiggle the wiring around Fuse 4 and 5

reef on the battery wires, wiggle the main ground

 

Test the starter direct, run a wire from the spade connector on the solenoid and touch it on battery positive.

This should always make the starter spin if the battery and main connections are ok. 

Make sure the bike is in Neutral first

 

 

I'm not even thinking about the battery charging at this stage.

[Scud]

Thanks gentlemen. I'll do some lubricating and wiggling... and I'm sure we can keep our innuendo to respectable level... And Roy, I'll go through the tests and report as I do.

 

I believe all connections are clean and lubricated - I used vaseline when I last worked on this bike. But I will inspect/tighten.

 

On the lube issue, I have some of that Lubriplate stuff. Since it was not available for direct export to NZ, I helped Marty with his grey-market import and got a tube for myself.     I did all the connections on my Scura with the DC-4... so far so good.  Many dirt-bikers (self-included), who occasionally submerge their motorcycles, use dielectric grease to waterproof electrical connections. It's no fun to short-out and stall during a water crossing.

 

I too am suspicious of the headlight bulb. The installation of the LED was painfully tight and I was concerned that it might not have been adequately ventilated in the small plastic bucket (I has to cut out a lot plastic from the plastic-chrome reflector back to even get it to close.

 

I rode it to work today, that was fun. Too much BMW commuting lately - started easy this morning, but took three times on the starter button to get it to turn over - and then started easy. It always starts eventually - not been stranded yet.

[MartyNZ]

Don't count me as an expert. I merely try to "connect the dots" for a better understanding of these super-complex topics.

 

As I recall, Wayne's primary reference for his opinion was Ford Motor Company's research into wiring infiltration and switch/ relay failure from silicon dioxide. Again, *my recollection* from respecting Wayne's willingness to share hie vast knowledge and experience. I don't mean to speak for Wayne and hold a high respect for him.

 

Here is OMRON's precaution (perhaps it can be interpreted differently than my "take" on avoiding silicone "dielectric" grease in the proximity of switches and, especially. relays?)

 

https://www.omron.com/ecb/products/pdf/auto_precautions.pdf

The service temperature for DC4 is -40 to 200 °C. I assume that there is little decomposition of the grease till greater than that temp. PVC wiring insulation starts to melt and burn above 80 °C, so I believe that we don't have this problem on motorcycles.

Conventional wisdom says dismount if your bike catches fire.   By then relays will not be your biggest concern. 

However, there was a problem of some types of silicon sleeving gassing off and ruining open relays in the 1970s. Perhaps this is where Ford's research was focused. I think things are better now, more stable silicone, PVC automotive wiring insulation ,  and some types of relays are sealed.

[docc]

Conventional wisdom says dismount if you feel your bike catches fire. Then relays will not be your biggest concern. 

righto! *dismount* if yer biscuits git ta burnin' !

[Kiwi_Roy]

When you press the start button is it

just a faint click from the relay

A clunk from the solenoid but not enough torque from the motor to turn.

 

Try this next time before you crank

Attach your meter negative to the chassis somewhere with a clip

Attach the positive lead to the spade connector with a clip

Meter on 20 Volt range it will read zero but should red around 11 when you press start.

 

If you think you might have a loose connection at the headlight bulb measure the Voltage.

It's pretty hard to see the headlight or use your meter while riding but if you connect another small bulb (I like to use a 12V LED) and attach it somewhere you will easily notice if the Voltage is fluctuating and can do it safely in the daylight.

Move the connection point around to test different parts of the circuit e.g. wrap the wire around pin 87 of the light relay.

The main thing is to get a reliable connection to your circuit, I solder small wires straight to my test LED, you don't want an unreliable test lamp to add to the symptoms.

[Scud]

 

The best examination of the benefits of silicon dielectric grease is here: https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm  . This guy explains the relative merits of insulating grease, "conductive" grease, and vaseline in a better way than I could. Sure he has an electronics perspective, but connector corrosion is the same for them. 

 

 

I'd like to read that, but the link gives me a "page not found" error.

[Scud]

Progress report.

 

Battery voltage at rest: 12.85v  (it was on charger night before last, ridden 10 miles yesterday, parked overnight without charger) 

For comparison - 1-month old Odyssey in Scura reads 12.83

 

Battery problem ruled out.

 

Relays up next... because Docc kindly sent along some of the supercalifragilisitic up-rated OMRONs, which just arrived - and because that's the next-easiest thing to do. I didn't expect any difference, because I had all new OMRONs in there already - and they were the previously-best-known model....  and to my surprise, (and embarrassment)... the front relay came out much easier than the others. With high hopes I noticed that one of my new relays had the three-prongs already bent-in a bit, so I popped that in the front (which made a nice, tight fit), and also replaced the other 4 with the newbies.

 

Moment of truth.... it just started flawlessy 10 times in a row.  And.... the headlight flicker is gone.... And.... I had not previously mentioned another symptom, which was that the high-beam was not working.  And... the high beam now works.  And... holy crap I was ready to spend the better part of day on this.  And... it's time to go for a celebratory rip through the Elfin Forest.

 

I've seen many other people's problems almost magically solved by new relays. So add me to the list. 

 

And thanks to everyone for the trouble-shooting tips, I have mixed feelings about not needing most of them. Sorry for all the work you put into writing the tips - but STOKED that I didn't have to do all that.

 

By the way - I put DC-4 on the tips of each prong on the relays before I pushed them into their bases.  Please carry on with the dielectric grease discussion....

[Scud]

When you press the start button is it

just a faint click from the relay

A clunk from the solenoid but not enough torque from the motor to turn.

 

 

It was the faint click.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Relay 1 n/c contact goes to the headlight relay, something loose in relay 1 was dropping out relay 2.

A bad connection on the 30 contact perhaps since it also effected starting.

Good on you for tracking it down.

 

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

[MartyNZ]

 

 

The best examination of the benefits of silicon dielectric grease is here:  https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm&ved=0ahUKEwjWxZrynPfRAhXGo5QKHUD7Ac0QFggYMAA&usg=AFQjCNHwibqeA9xoggY2S8AvFyuRQxLNQQ This guy explains the relative merits of insulating grease, "conductive" grease, and vaseline in a better way than I could. Sure he has an electronics perspective, but connector corrosion is the same for them. 

 

 

I'd like to read that, but the link gives me a "page not found" error.

 

Sorry, post edited with a link that works.

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm&ved=0ahUKEwjWxZrynPfRAhXGo5QKHUD7Ac0QFggYMAA&usg=AFQjCNHwibqeA9xoggY2S8AvFyuRQxLNQQ

There is a lot to wade through in this post, and you will probably want to skip past the heat sink tests, but he offers a thorough analysis of his subject.

[Chuck]

Here's Wayne's explanation with links, too..

http://hogmountain.homenet.org/Dielectric_grease.htm