Oil Consumption

[Baldini]

....inescapable conclusion that the V11 "Sport" moniker is tantamount to misrepresentation. ....

 

No, Guzzis don't suit everyone, take a while to figure.

 

Scura's got 13k miles, mostly fast sports use, mostly on torque. Runs like a train. Doesn't use much oil. Happy Bunny

 

KB

[belfastguzzi]

I've drained the oil and dropped the sump. Gathered as much of the used oil as possible, including from filter. There was a 2 litres amount collected. The motor takes 3.5L.

 

3L plus filled filter brought the level to top of dipstick marker, without spinning the motor and priming the system again.

 

I don't know how much of the old oil was left in the system, but it looks like around 1L may have disappeared, perhaps a good bit of that in recent fast run to Erin Rally and back. That seems a lot.

 

This is all a very inaccurate, 'rough and ready' assesment, but I think that the lesson is to measure oil level accurately and keep topped up, particularly during long runs.

 

When changing oil, I always drop the sump because I like to clean out the horrid emulsion. This is a losing battle of course – and maybe the stuff does no harm – but I always hate the idea of water in the oil system. Why keep recirculating it? I feel a new thread coming on. <_>

[Guest Nogbad]

When changing oil, I always drop the sump because I like to clean out the horrid emulsion. This is a losing battle of course – and maybe the stuff does no harm – but I always hate the idea of water in the oil system. Why keep recirculating it? I feel a new thread coming on.

54376[/snapback]

 

Do you do relatively short journeys?

[belfastguzzi]

Do you do relatively short journeys?

54377[/snapback]

Day to day journeys are very short – that's why it's a 'losing battle'. But this is after 830 miles of long, hot running last weekend. If the water was allowed out, would the longer journeys not clean the oil up a bit?

[belfastguzzi]

BTW, here are some pics that show the relationship between dipstick max/min levels and the oil pick-up

 

 

and this is a bit of the spinning stuff above the oil. A big bit.

[Guest ratchethack]

Great shots, Belfast. If you've still got your sump off, any chance you could get a clearance measurement between the bottom of the pickup and the sump? If you used a straightedge and ruler it should be a simple subtraction. Thanks.

[belfastguzzi]

Great shots, Belfast.  If you've still got your sump off, any chance you could get a clearance measurement between the bottom of the pickup and the sump?  If you used a straightedge and ruler it should be a simple subtraction.  Thanks.

54383[/snapback]

Sorry Ratchet, the oil's in. It must sit close to the sump pan. It is surprising that a surge can move so much oil back and away from the pick-up. I think that the end of the filter also sits close to the bottom of the sump. This could be checked through the access cover. The pick-up looks like it sits lower than the filter.

 

The bottom of the pick-up is castleated – I presume because it sits close to the pan and the gaps let the oil through. On first oil change I found that my castleations were broken – careless assembly / handling at the factory?

[O2 V11]

Adding to this post, my own experiences are that you don't get condensation and gunk in your rocker boxes, sump or anywhere for that matter if your rides are of a decent duration regardless of ambient temperature. In this case all between 5 and 15 degC / 40 and 60degF. My internals were clean at the 1000 mile mark. And have remained so since then. My oil consumption has been 600ml in 2600 miles. I just added 600ml to take the oil level up to where it was after I measured 3.5 litres in at the 1000 mile service I did myself. As I have posted before I don't get too excited about checking the oil as per the handbook. I just check the stick when the bike is cold and on the sidestand. My reference point is the level at which the measured 3.5 litres filled the sump to. This is about 10ml above the high mark. When I did use the handbook procedures as a check, the level was right on the high mark. Interestingly this oil consumption of 600ml is about the same as it was for the first 1000 miles. I changed to Castrol Activ 4T, a mineral oil at 1000 miles and will continue to use this until about the 10,000 mile mark.

 

When I go for a ride all I take is my wallet and a cellphone. My PC resides where the tool bag used to be. I'm still waiting for my gearbox spring to break, my electrics to give me trouble, expect my cases to blister tomorrow or the next day. If something's going to break it will. I don't see this as something to worry about day and night. When it does it's in the SH!T happens category. Get out there and enjoy, wring it's neck, that's what your V11's made for. My rear tyre should just last until 5000 miles if I'm lucky. Before fitting my PC my gas mileage was around 37 UK mpg. then went up to over 40, now it's dropped back to below 40. I ride my bike the way it should be ridden, for pleasure only, briskly, always 5k rpm and over. Now mostly two up, with either my wife or one of the kids as a pillion. I find the suspension OK, but in all fairness our road surfaces are not the best.

When, or should I say if something does go amiss you will hear about it. Collectively we need to accentuate the positives of Guzzi ownership more than what we do. I only bought my bike because it is a Moto Guzzi, I wouldn't own anything else. For me it's Guzzi or walk...

Rob

[pete roper]

Day to day journeys are very short – that's why it's a 'losing battle'. But this is after 830 miles of long, hot running last weekend. If the water was allowed out, would the longer journeys not clean the oil up a bit?

54379[/snapback]

 

When I was living in Wolverhampton back in the '80's I too had that problem when I was using my SP for short journeys, it was particularly horrid in the rocker covers! Not as bad as yours looks though, bleargh, that is *really* horrid .

 

My *solution* was to buy a thirty quid Honda C50 to commute on, not only did this save wear and tear on the Guzz but the wreckers are full of low mileage ones that have been embedded in the side of Austin Maxi's so I never did *any* maintenance, when the donks went *pop* I just went to the wrecker and bought another one for 15 quid and bolted it in, (Three bolts! ) it was cheaper than bus fares!!!!!!! It was also a hoot to ride, the tyres were made of bakelite and I could two wheel drift it round roundabouts holding it up with the horrid plastic leg shields like Vallentino does with his GP bike . Nowadays I'm sure you could get a 'Twist and go' scooter that would be even better for much the same money, then you could save the Guzz for solid thrashing which would probably help.

 

Another thing you could try is what people do with Tall Head Tontis that use the frame as the condensor and put a small car type PCV valve in the breather to the airbox, (Shouldn't cost more than a couple of quid from Halfords.) The water, or most of it, gets in from *outside* as the motor cools down and *pants* at low RPM and then condenses inside the frame and cases. fitting a PCV valve helps stop it. Chris Rampen in Canada cured the emulsion problems on his Mk V this way. I haven't actually tried it myself but that's because I live in one of the driest areas of the driest inhabited continent on earth!!!!! I simply don't have condensation/emulsion problems so I don't need to do it and can't comment on it's efficacy or veracity, sorry. I trust Chris though, he's a clever bugger.

 

Pete

[belfastguzzi]

The water, or most of it, gets in from *outside* as the motor cools down and *pants* at low RPM and then condenses inside the frame and cases. fitting a PCV valve helps stop it.

Pete

54392[/snapback]

 

Yep. Opening the vent to atmosphere may make the problem worse rather than better. I just wonder if, as well as sucking damp air in when bike cools, will it let the moisture out again?

 

I'll look out for that PCV valve.

 

You're probably right, in that the only real solution is to use a CZ 125 for going to work – or better, a pushbike. Those big cars that are only doing 4 or 5 mile trips, used for school drops and shopping, must be getting wrecked inside.

[Guest Nogbad]

My oil consumption has been 600ml in 2600 miles.

54391[/snapback]

 

That is in fact much the same as mine.....

[Greg Field]

OK, chicken littles, you are all hereby charged with "assumption".

 

One of you needs to source some initiative and take 5 minutes to temporarily plumb in an oil-pressure gauge and see if the pressure really is dropping, or if you're all just being fooled by the notoriously inaccurate and error-prone oil-pressure switches Guzzi uses.

 

Oil use is another matter. Guzzis that are operating properly burn essentially no oil. If you are burning a quart in 1,000 miles, something is amiss. A good man with a leakdown tester and a half hour could likely pinpoint the source. I could do it if you were in the Seattle area or were willing to ride here.

 

Then, you can all try to keep up with my Eldorado . . . hehehehehehe

[belfastguzzi]

I could do it if you were in the Seattle area or were willing to ride here.

54536[/snapback]

The spirit's willing, Greg, but the flesh isn't up to it

[pete roper]

OK, chicken littles, you are all hereby charged with "assumption".

 

One of you needs to source some initiative and take 5 minutes to temporarily plumb in an oil-pressure gauge and see if the pressure really is dropping, or if you're all just being fooled by the notoriously inaccurate and error-prone oil-pressure switches Guzzi uses.

 

Oil use is another matter. Guzzis that are operating properly burn essentially no oil. If you are burning a quart in 1,000 miles, something is amiss. A good man with a leakdown tester and a half hour could likely pinpoint the source. I could do it if you were in the Seattle area or were willing to ride here.

 

Then, you can all try to keep up with my Eldorado . . . hehehehehehe 

54536[/snapback]

 

Greg, I don't actually think that with this problem the switch is responsible. Usually the poxy things either fail open or fail shut. With the V11 problem it's that the oil pressure appears to drop catastrophically and the light comes on only under hard accelleration. At all other times the wretched switch seems to be operating quite normally. Yup, sticking a guage on it would probably tell the story a bit better but since the problem is only momentary unless you were using some sort of guage with a very quick reaction time, (digital maybe???? I dunno, there has to be something!!!!) it might be hard to spot.

 

With the oil loss? I still reckon that it's probably due to the through-flow of gas through the case and breather system pushing the oil vapor through the frame too quickly for it to condense out. I'm not sure a leak down test would prove all that much, (unless of course there was a serious problem.) I was thinking that with Nicasil you should be looking at about 2% leakage as a ballpark figure. Say the motor is turning 6,000 RPM then you'd be getting 20cc of gas passing the rings every cycle of the motor. 3,000 x 20cc. That would mean a throughput of 60 litres a minute though which can't be right can it?????? Perhaps it can????? I assume that in service the ring seal is a lot better so it must be reduced appreciably, (I hadn't ever actually thought about this before ) but certainly earlier models tend to breathe out oil fairly quickly if the PCV valve is missing or stuck open. Guzzi is also alone to the best of my knowledge in puting the PCV valve BEFORE the oil separator rather than after it. If the V11's don't have a PCV valve fitted as standard then this might well be a contributory factor and fitting one in the breather to the airbox might help oil loss, it would almost certainly help in the prevention of the mayonaising problem.

 

Hey, when I'm in Seattle in a couple of weeks time we can have a long, acrimonious, drunken argument about it That'll be fun . Have you worked out wether your Eldo or Enzo's sofa is faster yet

 

Pete

[Greg Field]

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I've seen 20 different failure modes on those switches, including flickery operation, and you're still assuming cavitation.

 

A gauge plumbed in where the sender is will read quickly enough for these purposes. Someone just needs to do it. Pop a few wheelies and see what happens. Even if you see pressure drop from 50 psi to 45 psi on quick acceleration, you'll know there is a problem. You will get that kind of response capability out of a mechanical gauge.

 

As for the breather issue, Dr. John told me that that Sport breather system is finely balanced. Change one thing and all bets are off on it working. Look at the size of the return line on a Sporti for a real clue how much oil circulates in and out of that frame backbone. It's sized maybe five or six times the return on the older Guzzis. We are talking many gallons per hour.

 

 

Here's how to test your breather theory: Detach the line to the airbox from the airbox, and stick its aft end in a big catch bottle. Ride the shit out of the bike. If significant amounts of oil accumulate, you've found your problem. Else, the oil's going somewhere else.

 

All of you with oil-eaters: have an observant buddy follow you as you put it through full-throttle to overrun situations to see and sniff what comes out. If you're burning any significant amount, they'll likely see or smell the evidence.