Sorting out a multiple-owner 2003 LeMans

[Scud]

I'm (of course) partial to color matched body work . . .

 

Le Tenebre sul Fuoco

 

"Darkness on Fire." I like that. Makes me think of the heroine from The Hunger Games. I think a full black and red treatment is probably where this is going cosmetically. I've let go of the white stripe idea.

 

very nice job, i d'love to be able to do stuff like that miself, as i dont even know how to dismount a wheel... 

 

waiting for stage two

 

I find working on bikes (and cars) myself to be an enjoyable activity in its own right. But there are other benefits, such as cost savings and the ability to fix something on the road if needed. Downloading some manuals from the fileshare section of this site, or This Old Tractor would be a good start. You can download the shop manual in French at this link:  http://www.thisoldtractor.com/moto_guzzi_misc_workshop_manuals___shop_manuals___service_manuals.html

[docc]

 

I'm (of course) partial to color matched body work . . .

 

Le Tenebre sul Fuoco

 

"Darkness on Fire." I like that. Makes me think of the heroine from The Hunger Games. I think a full black and red treatment is probably where this is going cosmetically. I've let go of the white stripe idea.

Hmmmmm . . . .satin black stripes?   (You know you can't help yourself

 

Scuro Fiamme offers a gentler simplicity. And sneaks the Scura thing in . . .

[Scud]

I stopped by the local dealer today... 

 

 

On a more serious note:  I've gone through the TPS and throttle body balance sequence again. It's "running" beautifully, but not "walking" so well. Idle speed is inconsistent (from about a low of 1,100 to high of 1,700, and most frequently about 1,500) and it seems like it could stall at the lower idle. It burps occasionally around 3,000 to 3,500 RPM.

 

Planned actions and questions:

1. I'm going to replace the throttle cable as soon as it arrives (I recently noticed a frayed strand and bend from previous high-bar mount)
2. Based on another thread I saw today, I think I will disconnect, clean, and reconnect the ECU.
3. Should I be using some different TPS or other settings because of the Kit Racing ECU and pipes?
4. What's the deal with the oxygen settings? I've seen this mentioned a few times, but I don't know what to do or what tools I would need.
5. What else should I be looking at?

If anybody has ideas, and there are how-to or other documents, feel free to post a link, rather than re-explain.

[docc]

Scud,

 

When you say "oxygen settings" do you mean the CO trim (carbon monoxide)? If so, then, by all means (guzzidiag/Axone/VDSTS) check your CO trim - these are notoriously lean from the factory.

 

While there is no special TPS, it is common that its potentiometer develops a little glitch at the most common throttle openings. I only found my fault by connecting it (TPS) to an Ohm meter and very gradually opening and closing it which revealed an abrupt *jump* in resistance. I could not see it watching millivolts.

 

Give your throttle body plates a good clean as well as the idle air bypass screws and their receptacles.

[Scud]

Ah... CO, I mis-remembered. That's why I couldn't find it again. I already have the ECU cable and just ordered an OBD2 to USB cable.

 

Just downloaded the GuzziDiag software.  This seems to be the thread to figure out what to do with it:  http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=17865&hl=guzzidiag%C2%A0).&page=1

 

Throttle bodies recently cleaned, including air bypass screws removed and cleaned.

 

Also found this regarding setup/tuning with the Kit Racing ECU and Titanium exhaust, which does show a different TPS setting than stock system. http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18661

 

On reading these instructions, it seems that I failed to do all the steps correctly. That makes twice now... but different errors. Third time's the charm?

[Scud]

Good news. I've got it running really sweet, with stable idle, and without hiccups. My test was only 10 miles, but I forced myself to do most of it at low RPMs to give it plenty of opportunity to misbehave. I'm reserving judgement until I have done a few days of commuting, several cold and hot starts, and a proper spirited ride, but I am optimistic. 

 

Given this is still my first attempt at tuning a V11, and after reading two sets of instructions, with different sequences, I tried to merge them. Following are my steps, including one that was not on either set of instructions (the Mechanical Balance). I got the idea from something Luhbo mentioned (can't recall where).

 

Tuning Procedure

 

Mechanical Baseline

1. Set intakes to .006” and exhausts to .008”
2. Fresh and correctly gapped spark plugs, clean air filter, clean throttle bodies, etc.

TPS Baseline

1. Connect TPS Breakout harness and voltmeter.
2. Back off cold idle speed cam (aka choke cam).
3. Disconnect throttle connecting rod under RH throttle body.
4. Back off RH idle speed screw so it does not touch.
5. Turn on ignition (don’t start).
6. Adjust TPS to read 150mv (turn the TPS unit to adjust).
7. Adjust RH idle speed screw to desired TPS setting: (465mv for Kit Racing ECU on 2002/03 bikes; 521mv for stock ECU; 550mv for Kit Racing ECU on 2001 bikes)
8. Disconnect TPS breakout harness (reconnect wires on bike).
9. Reconnect throttle connecting rod and set LH idle screw so it just makes contact with lever.

Warm up the bike, then turn it off. Have a fan available for airflow during remaining tests.

 

Low Speed Vacuum Balance

1. Connect manometer or other vacuum gauge.
2. Close air bypass screws.
3. Disconnect throttle connecting rod.
4. Start engine.
5. Adjust LH idle speed screw until cylinders are balanced.
6. Stop engine.

Mechanical Balance (note that this step may not be necessary if bike was already in decent tune)

1. Reconnect throttle connecting rod.
2. Adjust white balance knob until both throttle stop levers make contact to the idle screws. Use the smallest feeler gauge available until it has the same sliding friction on both sides.

High Speed Balance:

1. Start engine.
2. Test balance at 2-3,000 RPM
3. Adjust white balance knob for balance at 2-3,000 RPM.
4. Stop engine.

Final Idle Speed and Balance

1. Open air bypass screws the same amount on each side. I used 1/2 turn.
2. Start engine.
3. Adjust the air bypass screws until balance is achieved at the desired idle speed. (note - I left one side at 1/2 turn and opened the other side until balance was achieved, this way, both bypass screws will by open a minimum of 1/2 turn)
4. Use LH idle screw to increase idle speed to desired level - (consider adjusting RH idle screw until it makes contact to lever)
5. Stop engine.

Get Done

1. Disconnect Manometer.
2. Reattach caps or hoses to vacuum test ports.
3. Reset the cold idle (aka choke) cam.
4. Clean up and go for a ride.

 

So - there's an afternoon project... I've been eager to get the LeMans sorted, because the Scura is due for its first 6,000 mile service. I will try the above tuning process with the Scura too - it's been needing a little more time on the starter button lately, not firing up at first touch.

 

I'd appreciate any corrections or adjustments from you experienced tuners. I tried to document everything, but there may be errors.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Scud

[docc]

That's a great procedure!   Tune early and often!

[Scud]

That's a great procedure!   Tune early and often!

 

Thanks, I went for a canyon raid last night. It was flawless until I went through a series of stoplights after running hard, when it actually stalled at idle once. It was fussy through the town, then I took the freeway home and it idled perfectly again after that.

 

The Kit Racing instructions have ALL CAPS warnings about the exact engine temperature at which certain adjustments (including the CO) should be made. And a final ALL CAP warning about the CO adjustment. Not having a way to measure engine temperature, I guessed. But I will go through it once more when I get the Guzzidiag figured out - and we will see what the story is with the CO.

 

It's getting better and better...

[bikelee]

Just thought i would add that it is a good idea to have a fan or two going while you tune the engine to possibly avoid over heating the engine. Learned that from an old Guzzi mechanic.   OLD GITT.

[Scud]

Thanks Lee - I edited the post to include the fan. I'm going to keep at that procedure till it works... It had perfect manners on my short commute this morning, then was a little fussy on the way home, so I'm still puzzled. I hope the GuzziDiag software will help. I think I will test the air and oil temperature sensors too - because when I got the bike, the air sensor was relocated and the oil temp sensor was totally disconnected.

[chamberlin]

Looking great Scud! Finally got a chance to read through your last few rebuilding pages.....holy cow man that's one lucky LeMans.....rescued and restored! I do like the monochromatic tail-end, look like it matches perfectly. This is a great reference thread! Makes me want to go back and do so more things on my resto-mod.

[Scud]

Well - it seems like I finally got it to settle in to a nice state of tune today.

 

I ran a couple tanks with Lucas upper cylinder lubricant with injector cleaners. The fuel additive alone did not appear to make any difference; I still had hiccups at hot idle and at about 3,000 RPM. But I figured that since the throttle bodies were dirty, it'd be worth running some cleaner through.

 

Today, I went through the balancing part of the tuning procedure again (with the additive still in the tank). However, this time I also made sure it was good and hot, took a little more time with the balance knob at a few different RPMs (guessed due to no tach at the moment), balanced to a lower idle speed with the bleed screws only open a little - about 1/2 turn. I had previously balanced with the air bleed screws about 1.5 turns open, which gave me a higher idle speed (and I think a leaner mixture at idle).  I edited my tuning procedure (above post) to record what seems to be working better.

 

Still no success with GuzziDiag. I am on my second cable and got the one with the FTDI chip (even took it apart to verify).  I'm still curious to see whether I am running a factory or modified map, what my CO settings are, etc. but now that it seems to be running well, it's no longer urgent.  FYI - There's a detailed GuzziDiag tutorial over on WildGuzzi. I apparently still have some more to learn...

[chamberlin]

Looking to hear more about your GuzziDiag experience...at the moment I am completely in the dark as to what's needed to make CO adjustments, which is I think all my bike really needs now. I'll have to check out that tutorial.

[Scud]

I'm also looking forward to my GuzziDiag successes, but that will be later - as of now, I'm frustrated by COM ports, drivers, what works on Macs vs Windows, etc...

 

Meanwhile, since my throttle bodies were grungy (as noticed during earlier cleaning), I decided to try some injector cleaning products. Here are my observations about fuel additives/cleaners:

 

Lucas Upper Cylinder Lubricant:

Last week I was able to take about a 175 mile ride after the above referenced tuning - and with the Lucas product still in the tank. The ride was spirited, with 5,000 feet variance in elevation, weather from cold with light rain to hot and dry high desert sections, and very few stops. It ran great (no hiccups) and I managed about 41 MPG. To borrow a British expression, I was "chuffed to bits." I refilled the tank a little while after the fuel light came on (premium as always) and by the time I got home, the hiccuping problem (mostly at idle) had returned. Not sure what the British phrase would be here, perhaps "un-chuffed."

 

I commuted to work on the bike all week and had a fairly consistent (although still pretty minor) hiccup at idle and at low RPM running.  It appears that it ran a bit better with the Lucas stuff in the mix.  Lucas claims better MPG due to more complete combustion.

 

CRC Motor Treatment

This morning I filled the tank and added 5.5 ounces (1 per gallon) of CRC's carbon-cleaning stuff - which is similar to Seafoam and other treatments.

With the engine at operating temperature, I ran another 6 ounces directly into the combustion chambers.  

• Clear plastic hose (same type as the manometer) connected to vacuum ports at the heads, then to a plastic T.
• With the engine running (around 2,000 rpm per instructions), I let the open end of the T slurp up the engine treatment (hover over surface of fluid in measuring cup). This produced quite a lot of white smoke and made the engine stumble.
• When I got near the end of 6 ounces I let it have a bit bigger gulp and stall itself out.
• Then I let it "heat-soak" for 20 minutes.
• Just when I was ready to start it again, my neighbor rolled up on his Harley. We decided to ride a bit together and I warned him about the massive cloud of white smoke that was about to appear (per warning on product label).
• However, no smoke-out. Where are Cheech and Chong when you need them?
• He followed me and I did several hard launches and kept the revs up for about 15 miles. He said that although he never saw any smoke, that it smelled really bad for about the first 5 miles, then the smell went away.
• After some tacos (which seem to appear frequently when I ride...) I did another 50 miles solo.

Results of the CRC "carbon cleaning"

• I have a steady, non-hiccuping idle again, although I can still get it to do a little hiccup at low, steady RPMs.
• I am trying to be aware of the potential to fool myself, but it does seem to run a bit smoother all around.
• I'm still running the tank of gas that includes the cleaner - so further observations are in order when I run fuel without the additive.

Conclusion:

I have always been skeptical of these type of products, but they do seem to actually do something. The 5-mile, unintentional smell-test, was good additional evidence.

 

Possible Next Steps (Since I am still in search of the elusive "perfect" tune):

• I've seen some references to "Raceco" valve settings of 0.20mm intake and 0.25 exhaust, which translates to about .007 inches and .010 inches. Some said that using these looser settings eliminated their hiccup issues.
• Either try some more with GuzziDiag or give up and take it to a mechanic to see about the ECU mapping, CO settings, etc.

[czakky]

if you ever get guzzidiag up and running I can send you some maps and you can compare to yours. Then we can eliminate mapping as the issue.