Now this is cheesing me off!

[Ballacraine]

OK I have had the exploding angle drive scenario and replaced with a new unit.

 

The blasted speedo still bounces like Sam Fox's jugs used to and then quits in short order.

 

Re-assemble & repeat every 5miles....

 

Getting seriously POed with it....

 

Has anyone tried anything like this?

 

http://www.trailtechproducts.co.uk/store/erol.html

 

 

Nige.

[richard100t]

OK I have had the exploding angle drive scenario and replaced with a new unit.

 

The blasted speedo still bounces like Sam Fox's jugs used to and then quits in short order.

 

Re-assemble & repeat every 5miles....

 

Getting seriously POed with it....

 

Has anyone tried anything like this?

 

http://www.trailtechproducts.co.uk/store/erol.html

Nige.

Have you made sure the angle drive is pointed in towards the transmission? Mine did the same thing until I turned it in toward the tranny. The speedo still bounces some but it works well enough.

What happens is that angle drive thing comes loose from the cable drive end if theres any tension pulling the cable.

[BrianG]

I take it you lubed the speedo cable with a good quality moly grease.

[Ryland3210]

I take it you lubed the speedo cable with a good quality moly grease.

 

What's been your experience with greasing speedo cables? When I tried that, the viscous friction contributed to rapid failure at the transmission end. I found that either no lube, or graphite (as used on auto cables for the past 50 years) was the answer.

[jrt]

Odd. I've got 20K miles on my bike, and I've never replaced the angle unit or cable. I still have about a 10 mph bounce in the speedo (it's the speedometer, not the cable). As mentioned above, the routing makes a huge difference. Even on my old Guzzi, I had a factory cable that lasted the better part of 50 or 60K miles before it broke (because water got in it and I didn't properly lubricate). After I replaced it, the cable would break every 5K miles or so, simply because I didn't route it properly (and didn't know any better). After learning what my problem was and routing the cable properly for minimum bend, it works great again. Too bad the Veglia speedometers are junk. FWIW, I use a light oil lubricant. i bet some of the new ones with teflon would work pretty well in this application- the carrier oil is very light and evaporates within a few minutes, leaving particulate teflon.

[P3GA]

I've found that safety wiring the cable to the drive unit has kept everything in alignment & working properly.

 

The coupling / drive is a bastardized design at best.

 

Rather than monkey around with bicycle computers (How the hell do you verify actual mileage when you - or subsequent owners - register the bike?), you may want to consider using the speedo drive unit to power a hall-effect sensor, that in turn will send a signal to an electronic speedomer. Going this route route opens a world of options, however you'll need to purchase a sensor & a new electronic speedometer.

 

But safety wire & pliers is still a much cheaper option ..............

 

Hope this helps.

[slug]

Argh. My odometer just quit on me (at 18,000 miles) and my speedo needle bounces too.

 

Since so many are having issues with the Vaugelias, do we have any recourse with Moto Guzzi?

 

Speedometers/odometers should not have this high of a failure rate!

[Guest ratchethack]

What's been your experience with greasing speedo cables? When I tried that, the viscous friction contributed to rapid failure at the transmission end. I found that either no lube, or graphite (as used on auto cables for the past 50 years) was the answer.

I've lubed speedo cables on a variety of vehicles with a variety of lubes for many decades, in a wide variety of climates and temperatures. I've used everything from specialty teflon-based cable lubes, to graphite, to wheel bearing grease, to motor and trans lube. IMHO, while it may well be true that none of these are the "perfect solution", NONE of these are WRONG either -- and any one of which is a damned sight better than letting them go dry!

 

I've replaced two speedo cables on two different V11's -- my '00 Sport, and a '04 LM. The reason I replaced mine was that the external worm gear drive of this design had popped off it's staked-on driven gear retaining disk on the road, disgorging the gear and cable on the road before I noticed the needle had dropped to zero MPH. There was nothing wrong with the cable itself. It had been lubed properly. It had evidently decided that it preferred life alone on the road to service in the Guzzi, and set off on its own, and how ya gonna keep the cable in its shroud, once it's seen wot my Guzzi has seen? I've never worn out or broken a cable on the Guzzi at 34K miles, having always regularly lubed them with transmission lube.

 

The speedo cable on the '04 LM was a completely different story, being a "bent housing" design (without the external worm gear drive like mine) having broken its cable at about 8K miles, as I recall, without ever having been lubed. It came out completely dry and corroded, having obviously failed from lack of lube after many miles of the usual warning signs of imminent failure -- a jumping needle. The replacement cable for this one has likewise been lubed ever since replacement with trans oil for nearly 20K miles with no problems of any kind.

 

The routing of the cable is important, as has been posted many times. The easiest curves that cause the least flexing of the cable as it rotates are preferred, and by my experience, are easily enough achieved with a little care.

 

Now there have been those on this Forum who have claimed that lubing the speedo cable will foul and destroy speedo instruments by lube migrating up the cable and wreaking havoc with the clockworks. Unfortunately for those with such claims, there seems to be ZERO evidence behind this unfounded fear. We have one Infamous Forum Hyena who, according to his amazing post, has apparently never lubed his cable and will never do so. He has apparently been eagerly awaiting an opportunity to laugh (well, like a hyena, according to his post) upon learning about my speedo being "filled" with trans lube from lubing the cable! Yes, well then -- we all have our own unique motivations and purposes in life, and to each his own. . .

 

Not only has this not happened to either my Sport or my Pal's '04 LM, but there has never been any trace of this happening in either case, after repeat checks at time of lubing the cable over many years. Nor have there been any posts of this happening to my knowledge on any kind of a Guzzi -- ever. As I had determined before lubing my speedo cable the first time, the helical windings of both the cable and its shroud work with the direction of rotation of the cable to migrate lube DOWN the cable, into the trans -- apparently by design.

 

We also have posters who justify complete cable negligence, having speculated that lined cable shrouds can swell with certain kinds of lube and cause cable failure. Hm. Not only have I never seen this happen with ANY kind of a lined cable EVER (of which I've used a bunch and still have many spares in a giant "cable wreath" that I keep for some reason on the wall of my home shop) -- but the V11 Guzzi doesn't have any lined cables on it anywhere -- the speedo cable included. It's steel cable on steel shroud. . .

 

If lubricating the cable were to cause a cable to fail by viscous friction, it seems to me that the lube in question would have to be extremely thick and gummy, perhaps subject to low temperature viscosity -- not properties I associate with any quality lube likely to be used anywhere -- let alone on a speedo cable, and certainly none I've ever had any experience with.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

[Skeeve]

The blasted speedo still bounces like Sam Fox's jugs used to and then quits in short order.

 

Ah, Samantha Fox. Gotta love the refreshing candor of some starlet who gets asked onto a talk show & then gives [correct] credit for her career to her magnificent snack tray. Didn't she start the whole "bad actress w/ a singing career" thing w/ her pop hit "Touch Me?"

 

Now they're all doing it. Lindsay Lohan could learn a trick or two from ol' Sam! Esp. the full frontals...

 

Sorry, I'll stop now before we have to move this over to the "Hooters" thread!

 

Can the all-singing, all-dancing, Aprilia 'lectronic speedo from the Griso/Breva/et al be adapted to the V11ses, or is that completely beyond the pale? Despite my Luddite tendencies, I like the features of "miles to empty" trackers, etc., esp. if when they inevitably go the way of the passenger pigeon, the rest of the machine can still soldier on.

 

Or is there some other mechanical-drive speedo that will fit inside the Vague-liar's case?

 

Reminds me, I should pick up the "new & improved" 1" longer speedo drive cable that's supposed to fix the short MTBF of the original unit just to have ready to swap in...

[BrianG]

 

 

Can the all-singing, all-dancing, Aprilia 'lectronic speedo from the Griso/Breva/et al be adapted to the V11ses, or is that completely beyond the pale? Despite my Luddite tendencies, I like the features of "miles to empty" trackers, etc.,

 

 

This is an idea that I've been researching for this winter's project. Finding/building a Hall-effect transducer to bolt onto the current speedo-drive should be doable. Installing a magnet onto the driveshaft should be doable. Next thing we need to find is a transplantable electronic head unit for the V-11 pod. I have a jewler friend that will transplant the Vegalia guage face. Callibration will be a breeze with a "Speedo-healer" type unit.

[Ballabio Bertie]

Damn!!!Just replaced the speedo cable and now the whole speedo unit is dancing around in the housing.....

[Ryland3210]

I've lubed speedo cables on a variety of vehicles with a variety of lubes for many decades, in a wide variety of climates and temperatures. I've used everything from specialty teflon-based cable lubes, to graphite, to wheel bearing grease, to motor and trans lube. IMHO, while it may well be true that none of these are the "perfect solution", NONE of these are WRONG either -- and any one of which is a damned sight better than letting them go dry!

 

I've never worn out or broken a cable on the Guzzi at 34K miles, having always regularly lubed them with transmission lube.

 

The speedo cable on the '04 LM was a completely different story, being a "bent housing" design (without the external worm gear drive like mine) having broken its cable at about 8K miles, as I recall, without ever having been lubed. It came out completely dry and corroded, having obviously failed from lack of lube after many miles of the usual warning signs of imminent failure -- a jumping needle. The replacement cable for this one has likewise been lubed ever since replacement with trans oil for nearly 20K miles with no problems of any kind.

 

If lubricating the cable were to cause a cable to fail by viscous friction, it seems to me that the lube in question would have to be extremely thick and gummy, perhaps subject to low temperature viscosity -- not properties I associate with any quality lube likely to be used anywhere -- let alone on a speedo cable, and certainly none I've ever had any experience with.

 

BAA, TJM, & YMMV

 

Hi Ratchethack,

 

By trans lube, do you mean the same as used in the transmission, or ATF?

 

My OEM cable failed after less than 100 miles. It failed near the bend just above the transmission. There was no sign of corrosion, nor any lubricant. Several subsequent NAPA cables, purchased on the advice of the dealer while we waited for a replacement under warrantee, all failed in short order in the same place, despite experimenting with various lubricants. Evidence suggests it was the sharp bend in the tubing causing fatigue failure. The bend angle has been reduced in the new part number housing, according to the Service Bulletin. I have put 2,000 miles on the new housing/cable assembly so far, without a problem, except just once this past Sunday, I noticed some needle vibration at 40 MPH while decelerating. I haven't checked whether the dealer lubed the cable, but will do so.

 

I'm intrigued by the electronic speedo conversion. Back in the 60's, while at Hewlett Packard, I designed a photo electric set of distributor points for my Formula S Barracuda. I still have the distibutor. I believe it was the world's first, but it was only years later that I learned the value of patents. Later on, I got intrigued with Sprague's Hall Effect sensors. I designed them into some industrial controls, where the response time of the phototransistor was not needed. A Speedo driven by a hall effect sensor and suitable electronics should be straightforward to design, with so much off-the-shelf technology available today.

 

I look forward to seeing progress on this. Meantime, just for fun, maybe I'll design a sensor, electronics driver and electric motor kit to drive the OEM speedo directly, eliminating the cable altogether. An advantage would be the ability to adjust the ratios so the darned thing reads accurately. Mine reads about 8% high.

 

Cheers,

John

[Guest ratchethack]

By trans lube, do you mean the same as used in the transmission, or ATF?

Hi, John.

 

I was referring to wotever manual trans lube I was using in the vehicle at the time, not recalling one instance of lubing a speedo cable in the few auto trans vehicles I've owned, though there may've been one or 2. I'd have used wheel bearing grease or graphite, or other specialty cable lube. ATF would be too light of a grade for a rotating cable, not to mention lacking many other appropriate lubrication properties IMHO. In the case of the Guzzi, I've used both "conventional" synthetic trans lube and Redline Heavy Shockproof, which I consider "non-conventional" synthetic.

My OEM cable failed after less than 100 miles. It failed near the bend just above the transmission. There was no sign of corrosion, nor any lubricant. Several subsequent NAPA cables, purchased on the advice of the dealer while we waited for a replacement under warrantee, all failed in short order in the same place, despite experimenting with various lubricants. Evidence suggests it was the sharp bend in the tubing causing fatigue failure. The bend angle has been reduced in the new part number housing, according to the Service Bulletin.

This is probably the point of failure for 99.99% of speedo cables. As I recall, there were several threads here on the unnecessarily acute angle of the hard part of the cable shroud years ago. When we replaced the "bent shroud" cable on my Pal's LM, I took the hard part of the shroud and manually opened up the radius of the curve by (I estimate) 5-10 degrees, which made an easier angle while still making hard contact with the throttle body stay above it, yet provided a "french curve" smooth line all the way up to the clock. With lube, this seems to work just fine.

I'm intrigued by the electronic speedo conversion. Back in the 60's, while at Hewlett Packard, I designed a photo electric set of distributor points for my Formula S Barracuda. I still have the distibutor. I believe it was the world's first, but it was only years later that I learned the value of patents. Later on, I got intrigued with Sprague's Hall Effect sensors. I designed them into some industrial controls, where the response time of the phototransistor was not needed. A Speedo driven by a hall effect sensor and suitable electronics should be straightforward to design, with so much off-the-shelf technology available today.

 

I look forward to seeing progress on this. Meantime, just for fun, maybe I'll design a sensor, electronics driver and electric motor kit to drive the OEM speedo directly, eliminating the cable altogether. An advantage would be the ability to adjust the ratios so the darned thing reads accurately. Mine reads about 8% high.

Outstanding, John. I also was intrigued by Brian's post above. Seems to me that like you said, with all the great "state o' the shelf" technology about, a Hall Effect wheel could be mounted on top of the trans in a small enclosure at the speedo drive output with a little home whittlin' of parts. . . Can't beat DIRECT practical application of "state of the shelf" technology!! It's a no-brainer replacement for cable with a known compatible electronic clock at the instrument end.

 

Keep us apprised!

 

BEFORE I EVEN POST THIS*:

 

NO, Dave. Suggesting DIRECT practical application of "state of the shelf" technology here IS NOT the same thing as suggesting a "state of the shelf" silicone hydraulic helicopter cush drive for the Guzzi!!!! If you can find any part of a helicopter with the same dimensions, operating RPMs, operating temperatures, torque load requirements, flexibility requirements, damping requirements, chemical resistance requirements, rotational travel requirements, etc. of a Guzzi cush drive -- and then stuff this and all the helicopter R&D engineering behind it into the Guzzi cush drive, well I reckon you'd have found yourself a DIRECT practical application from a helicopter to the Guzzi! Absent that, you've got naught but more "bleeding edge" raw speculation on a mighty big heap o' the same now, and more'n likely at least hundreds of man-hours of experimentation ahead. But you're committed, man! GO F'ER IT!

 

*Just a little practical preemptive coverage based on history. It could save many pages of chaotic speculation shooting off in all directions. -- Who was it said you can't teach an old dog new tricks? I do b'lieve I'm gettin' better and better at "Whack-a-Mole!"

[Ryland3210]

Hi, John.

 

Outstanding, John. I also was intrigued by Brian's post above. Seems to me that like you said, with all the great "state o' the shelf" technology about, a Hall Effect wheel could be mounted on top of the trans in a small enclosure at the speedo drive output with a little home whittlin' of parts. . . Can't beat DIRECT practical application of "state of the shelf" technology!! It's a no-brainer replacement for cable with a known compatible electronic clock at the instrument end.

 

Keep us apprised!

 

Hi Ratchethack,

 

It's not an electronic clock that I had in mind. Rather, keeping the original speedo intact but driving it with an electromechical device. My objective is always to come up with bolt-on kits engineered for simple installation and reliability, even if that requires more complex design efforts and/or tooling up front. For example, my photo-electric distributor worked without failure throughout the 16 years I owned the Barracuda. I removed it to sell the car. It's still in working order today.

 

I also designed and built an electronic voltage regulator back in the days when only relay types were known. I gave my '63 Olds to a mechanic I liked in 1973. Aamco refused to fix the transmission under their lifetime guarantee for the fifth time as I ran the car far more miles than American cars were supposed to back then. So I gave the car to their mechanic. He was very grateful. The original battery was still in the car, starting it up in an unheated garage back when the winters were cold in north New Jersey. I learned a lot about batteries and charging methods from that experience.

 

Back on topic, replacing the original speedo with an electronic head would cost more, and would be not nearly as much of a challenge or fun for yours truly. Let's see: maybe instead, I should attach a subminiature hydraulic pump to the transmission and connect it with tubing to a hydraulic motor at the speedo. Or maybe a couple of synchros. Hmmm ....

[Guest ratchethack]

Please allow me to wax philosophic for a moment, if you will? It's a beautiful thing when imagination, very active versions of which, by themselves, are apt to spew chaotically in all directions like a loose fire hose as fire rages on, consuming everything in its path to the ground -- are balanced by an appropriate depth of knowledge, experience, wisdom and dare I say it -- common sense. Tempered by such control as is thereby afforded, fires can be safely dispatched PDQ. Without recognition of and appreciation for the necessity of that masterful BALANCE, we're left with naught but the dangerous and tragic folly of children happily playing amidst smoldering ash heaps and ruin.

 

-- Prof. Clack Hatchjacket, G.Ph.D., Esq., BAA, TJM, & YMMV

 

NOTE: "Whack-a-mole!" preemptive thread protection in force.