Gremlins II

[czakky]

I'll try to be as brief as possible here. I've been chasing electric gremlins almost since I've bought this bike. Not long after getting the bike home after buying it (w/30k miles or so) I notice a ground wire dangling with a self tapping sheet metal screw on it.... So I re attached it on the oil cooler bracket all was well for a while, except starter was weak so I recharged the battery. Busy with the TPS and a few other minor things hadn't ridden much in a week or so. Again starter seemed weak no big deal I'll get it to charge while riding it now that it's running great....

But the starter engagement stayed weak, oh well, I think to myself maybe it's one of those weak connections I've read about on the forum. So I clean any connection I can find (with tank on) with no change. Than on saturday running some errands I stop at the bank when she finally gave up the ghost in a very dramatic way, smoke, no lights, and it barely started.

I limp home, the next day take off the tank and get to chasing shorts, all of which coincide with my ground that I discovered dangling. I repair/replace as neccesary said wires well insulated well protected. Replaced the main (30amp) and the turn signal?(5 amp) fuses that were blown. 

Than wifey asks if I have any cash? no but I dont mind getting you some. So tempting fate I'm at the same bank and very confident in my repair work as my dash lights have never been brighter.....Thumb starter....nothin....again.... nothin.....starter spins just enough to fire her and away I go. No lights, turn signals, brake lights or idiot light, but I have a neutral light.

Now I have blown four fuses (i will check on which ones exactly) and have no detectable shorts....?

Also on my battery I have three + wires and three - wires not sure if this is normal. I thought I read some where that from the factory there is only one apiece.

Anyway thanks for reading my epic tale and of course thanks for any advice..

 

[docc]

As if these bikes weren't dicey enough coming out of Mandello, now we're three (or more ) owners on and have dangling wires with sheet metal screws?

 

How to undo what has been done? And begin again . . .

 

Factory had several loop terminals on each of the battery posts. Not that this was a good idea . . .

[docc]

Let's look at your relays and their connections . . .

[Kiwi_Roy]

The magic smoke has escaped, I've seen these symptoms before.

 

More to follow

[emry]

I sure someone can find the links faster than me, somewhere here KiwiRoy posted some very nice diagrams of the starting circuit. There are some issues that can cause the starter solenoid to stay in its "pull - up" state which can cause the a fuse to blow. As for multiple blown fuses, time to do a good clean up of the harness. Fuses rarely blow on their own will power. But it is very likely that they all ganged up to protest a singular event.

[czakky]

As if these bikes weren't dicey enough coming out of Mandello, now we're three (or more ) owners on and have dangling wires with sheet metal screws?

 

How to undo what has been done? And begin again . . .

 

Factory had several loop terminals on each of the battery posts. Not that this was a good idea . . .

that it is the frustrating part. especially since I know i'm atleast the third owner

Let's look at your relays and their connections . . .

I had replaced all the relays after the first electric issue with a credible brand, the name escapes me but it's one most of the board likes.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'll try to be as brief as possible here. I've been chasing electric gremlins almost since I've bought this bike. Not long after getting the bike home after buying it (w/30k miles or so) I notice a ground wire dangling with a self tapping sheet metal screw on it.... So I re attached it on the oil cooler bracket all was well for a while, except starter was weak so I recharged the battery. Busy with the TPS and a few other minor things hadn't ridden much in a week or so. Again starter seemed weak no big deal I'll get it to charge while riding it now that it's running great....

But the starter engagement stayed weak, oh well, I think to myself maybe it's one of those weak connections I've read about on the forum. So I clean any connection I can find (with tank on) with no change. Than on saturday running some errands I stop at the bank when she finally gave up the ghost in a very dramatic way, smoke, no lights, and it barely started.

I limp home, the next day take off the tank and get to chasing shorts, all of which coincide with my ground that I discovered dangling. I repair/replace as neccesary said wires well insulated well protected. Replaced the main (30amp) and the turn signal?(5 amp) fuses that were blown. 

Than wifey asks if I have any cash? no but I dont mind getting you some. So tempting fate I'm at the same bank and very confident in my repair work as my dash lights have never been brighter.....Thumb starter....nothin....again.... nothin.....starter spins just enough to fire her and away I go. No lights, turn signals, brake lights or idiot light, but I have a neutral light.

Now I have blown four fuses (i will check on which ones exactly) and have no detectable shorts....?

Also on my battery I have three + wires and three - wires not sure if this is normal. I thought I read some where that from the factory there is only one apiece.

Anyway thanks for reading my epic tale and of course thanks for any advice..

So what was that ground wire, are you sure it wasn't a hot put there to power some accessory the PO removed?

 

Weak starter - we need more information like battery Voltage?

The Ducati Energia regulators tend to get weaker with age but before you give up on it add a proper ground, the little black ground the factory provided is too small resulting in low battery Voltage. A short wire from the case to a timing cover screw will fix that.

Another thing that happens to the regulators, one of the internal diodes let go and you loose half the available charge, try adding the ground first.

 

Smoke, no lights, what did you find / fix?

 

So now you have several blown fuses, there must be several wires shorted to ground but where?

 

The last time I saw similar symptoms the owner was disconnecting the battery, while undoing the positive terminal his wrench made contact with the ECU which caused the little ground wire attached to get red hot and melt through the insulation of several other wires in the loom shorting them together. Fortunately the ground wire didn't go very far in the loom so it was an easy repair.

This is why we keep saying "Disconnect the Negative first, reconnect the Negative last", it's not possible to short the battery that way

 

Three wires on each post sounds about right, does that include the main fat ones?

 

If you have an intermittent short the fuses will pop in the blink of an eye without you noticing, here's an old sparky trick.

Replace the fuse with a heavy wattage lamp (old headlight bulb is perfect) the lamp may glow a bit but it will not be full brightness until the short occurs so you can poke and prod the wires looking for the short. I wouldn't recommend this on either of the ECU fuses but the wiring there is pretty robust anyway.

I sent you a PM

 

Roy

[czakky]

Hey Roy, there arent any acces. that I could find there are two bullet type connectors loose behind the battery and another looks to be factory three prong harness near the same area also nothing attached.  That mystery ground follows the right side of the bike and is wrapped in with the yellow bullet connectors.

 

I have yet to check voltage but the starter just barely turns always clicks than finally she'll fire.

 

I havent taken the tank off again yet too check but I couldnt see any obvious bubbly/ ugly wires.

 

....

 

UUUh, yea I sorta did something similar seemed harmless and I again couldnt find any obvious trouble. that was about the time I found the mystery ground.  Trust me negative has always been disconnected first since.

[Kiwi_Roy]

The factory 3 prong harness is probably the ECU test light connector (3 pins side by side), I have never tried to use it.

 

 Let us know which fuses blew, there might be a clue there

With the exception of the start relay fuse the only thing will cause them to blow is a short to chassis.

The start fuse will blow with a loose connection in the main positive wire or bad solenoid contact.

[czakky]

The Beign of my existence in picture form: black wire running next to the white wire.  It's gotta be a ground, right? Is it typical for a ground to run all the way from the battery to the front of a bke like that? I almost have it followed all the way.

Also found a hose clamp in my airbox...which is cool

 

(best pic I can upload..sorry)

[docc]

Grounding is known to be rather lacking in this design so, yes, there are grounds running the length of the wiring harness back to the terminal stack on the battery. The black one may be from the regulator. The white is power to the Run Switch from the middle relay and only energized when in neutral.

 

Your trace will tell for certain. No doubt you're onto the culprit!

[Kiwi_Roy]

Looks like a 6 beer job right there 

 

The bike is trying to bond with you.

[czakky]

Definitely a ground which proves I wasnt totally boneheaded.

Got her traced, cleaned up, wrapped, zip tied and reconnected the juice..... starts idles no blown fuses (yet) I clean up and give her a little revs and she dies..... D@$#!!!!

Two questions now that hopefully the electric is better should I reset my TPS? again because thats what its acting like it idles good but dies with throttle

Also, my coils are kinda sagging and it barely touches those bronze colored discs that the rubber feet sit on is that bad? I couldnt figure out a way to mount them better.

 

While I was at it I followed Docc's tank off checklist... So once again thanks buddy!! and I hope to never replace that breather tube again.

[docc]

c-zak: post your voltages across the terminals: key on, idle, 2500 rpm . . .

[czakky]

uh oh.... I dont like where this is going....

Key on- 11.9 and falling

Idle- 12.45 rising slowly

2500-?? wont hold it but volts are rising past 12.5

 

Ufortunately I gotta dinner thing... rather work on my bike