Series Type Voltage Regulator Install

[coreytrevor]

I just got done installing a series type voltage regulator. It's the Shindengen SH775, intended for a 3 phase, 3 wire stator but it works fine with the full wave, 2 wire stator on the V11. It is rated at 35 amps, more than enough for our bikes.

 

This thread is where I learned about this regulator:

 

http://www.triumphrat.net/speed-triple-forum/104504-charging-system-diagnostics-rectifier-regulator-upgrade-2.html

 

I also used the Triumph link lead, part number T2500676, only about 10 bucks, to hook the regulator up to the bike. The 2 connectors are sealed so that should eliminate a major failure point on these bikes.

 

I cut the 2 connectors off the V11 and soldered the link lead wires to the 4 harness wires and 2 stator leads. The bikes stator leads go to any 2 of the 3 black wires in the 3-wire plug of the SH775. You can use any 2 of the 3 wires, the third is not used. The 2 wire plug on the SH775 is the hot and ground wires, brown being hot and black being ground. Those were soldered to the corresponding wires on the bike.

 

The SH775 doesn't fit where the V11 regulator mounts, so I mounted it up under the tank, at one of the holes that go through the spine. One bolt seems to be enough to hold it but I might make a bracket later.

 

The big difference between this series type regulator and the stock shunt type is that the shunt type keeps the stator at full output at all times and just shorts any extra current to ground, turning in into heat. This makes the stator run a lot hotter than necessary and probably shortens its life. It also puts extra load on the engine to generate power that just gets shorted to ground.

 

The series regulator makes the stator produce only as much power as the system needs at the time. The regulator and stator will run much cooler and a small amount of horsepower is freed up. 

 

Things seem to be working fine. The system breaks even just off idle and voltage tops out at 14.2 well below 2000 rpm. I installed led headlight and taillight bulbs at the same time so that will lower the breakeven rpm.  My idle speed also went up about 200 rpm, showing the reduced drag on the engine.

 

 

[footgoose]

this is awesome CT. I'm electricity challenged, so I will be following developments on this with interest!

[Kiwi_Roy]

The original Ducati Energia is a series type also.
BTW shorting out the alternator doesn't create at much heat as you might think since the Volts are low Watts =V*A
The worst thing you can do is only half short it, then you get high Volts and high Amps as a Goldwing owner may know.

 

I heard those SH775s were good
 

[coreytrevor]

I have noticed on other bikes that from a cold engine start, the stator cover heats up a lot faster than the other lower end surfaces. I don't know the numbers but it seems the stator must generate a good bit of heat, and it seems like it can't hurt stator lifespan to let it run a little bit cooler.

[Kiwi_Roy]

When it's charging it puts out heat

Example 10 A @ 16 V, some of the current will be out of phase but I won't make my head hurt trying to figure that out.

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

[bbolesaz]

Ducati Energia is shunt, not series.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Ducati Energia is shunt, not series.

Sorry, it may be open to interpretation but the Ducati Energia active components (Silicon Controlled Rectifiers) are connected in series with the alternator to battery passing every bit of current the alternator can produce, they open like a light switch when the battery Voltage is sufficient allowing the alternator Voltage to go to 60 + Volts, They are connected in a classic bridge with 2 diodes and 2 SCRs. Once turned On the SCR can only turn off at the end of the current cycle, The battery acts like a large capacitor to smooth out the ripples.

 

I think you may be confusing the regulator with a series linear one where a transistor is turned on more or less to pass current like a variable resistor (producing heat) SCRs are either On or Off, nothing in between 

 

A shunt regulator typically has 4 or 6 diodes connected in a bridge with SCRs across the windings to short them out when the battery has enough Voltage

 

The Shindengen probably uses MOSFET transistors which can be turned from full On to Full Off off mid cycle like the switch mode regulator in a computer

 

I suspect the Electrosports are more like the Shindengen ones with MOSFET transistors rather than SCRs as the active component, they wouldn't tell me when I asked.

 

MOSFETs are more efficient than SCRs that have been around much longer.

[coreytrevor]

The SH775 is SCR. The newer, higher capacity SH847, not sure if SCR or MOSFET.

[Camn]

I still have the Ducati Energia regulator, the 30A amp fuse doesn't like the huge amperage of it too much - the voltage seems to be OK, allthough I have a LiFePo -battery.

"

If using a thyristor type voltage regulator and it fails, upgrading to a mosfet based voltage regulator will offer longer lifespan and better charging system performance.  Heat buildup in the voltage regulator kills the SCRs, whereas mosfets are more efficient and reliable.  In general the mosfet design is better suited for the voltage regulator application demands.

"

https://shoraipower.com/index.php?path=&page=Overview-of-Voltage-Regulator-Types

[luhbo]

...

 

The Shindengen probably uses MOSFET transistors which can be turned from full On to Full Off off mid cycle like the switch mode regulator in a computer

 

...

Roy, what I know is that a MOSFET might theoretically be switchable from On to Off whenever some circuit wants it, differently to Tyristors (SCRs), but practically there's no way to do it. While the RDS(on) (switched fully On) of a MOSFET is rather low, its resistance when switched Off naturally is rather high.

Now guess what happens when you try to switch Off a MOSFET under high loads/currents, means rise the resistance from zero to unlimited at maybe 30 Amps. 

As said above, theoretically this might be possible, practically it usually leads to sudden smell and smoke.

Then switching under load is also a bad idea when you have to reach certain EMC goals. These usually are not negotiable.

 

Don't know how it is with computers, vehicle electronics are always build on the lowest possible edge, that means the smallest and cheapest parts available, no reserves to fool with.

[luhbo]

I still have the Ducati Energia regulator, the 30A amp fuse doesn't like the huge amperage of it too much - the voltage seems to be OK, allthough I have a LiFePo -battery.

....

 

 

That doesn't make sense. That's not how electrics work.

[luhbo]

I just got done installing a series type voltage regulator. It's the Shindengen SH775, intended for a 3 phase, 3 wire stator but it works fine with the full wave, 2 wire stator on the V11. It is rated at 35 amps, more than enough for our bikes.

 

....

....

The series regulator makes the stator produce only as much power as the system needs at the time. The regulator and stator will run much cooler and a small amount of horsepower is freed up. 

 

...

 The same here. That's not how electrics do work. 

 

When it is rated at 35A for a 3 phase system, it will work with an AC system, too, ok. But is it still rated at 35A in this case? You have any numbers?

 

The line with the cooler alternator and regulator, how do you think that comes? Is it just a commercial text, found somewhere in the internet, or do you know an explanation for the mentioned effect?

[emry]

The 35 amp is the max rating of the regulators output, normally at 14v. This doesn't change if something on the rectification side changes, like running off of two legs. Of course the output will. Some modern race bikes will actually overheat the regulator til it shuts down and then the battery goes flat, just not enough system draw at 14,000 rpm and the stator is totally kicking ass at that point. So much current gets shunted the reg/rec casing can't disperse the heat. Simple fix is to remove a single stator leg which drops the stator output by 1/3 and then the rec/reg can handle the heat.

 

The only stators that don't produce full output all the time are the ones that have a field coil, anything with magnets is always working.

 

Also fully operational 35 amp system working at full capacity is only taking about 0.6hp to power, so not much to gain. 

[luhbo]

I'm not sure what you say. The Ducati regulator isn't a shunt type, as previously mentioned by Roy for instance, so once it sees the nominal voltage it just cuts off one half of the alternator output (waves). Then, basicaly, only half the current is driven -> half load, half heat. Easy for the alternator, easy for the regulator. Nothing to do. That's it.

 

When a regulator is rated with 35A, then in my opinion that means it could bear 35A when this load is distributed evenly on all the built-in diodes, SCRs, MOSFETS what ever. Ignore part of them and the rest will probably overheat once the alternator tries to push the same current over less regulator silicon. 

 

A datasheet of the earlier mentioned Shindengen would be nice here, the more as a proper power rating should be given in Watt, not in Amps (at 12V).

 

(BTW, why would someone want to screw his Guzzi with such a name? I know a lot of people who would never buy other tires but Pirelli for instance, just because Pirelli sounds right).

[emry]

I'm not sure what you say. The Ducati regulator isn't a shunt type, as previously mentioned by Roy for instance, so once it sees the nominal voltage it just cuts off one half of the alternator output (waves). Then, basicaly, only half the current is driven -> half load, half heat. Easy for the alternator, easy for the regulator. Nothing to do. That's it.

 

When a regulator is rated with 35A, then in my opinion that means it could bear 35A when this load is distributed evenly on all the built-in diodes, SCRs, MOSFETS what ever. Ignore part of them and the rest will probably overheat once the alternator tries to push the same current over less regulator silicon. 

 

A datasheet of the earlier mentioned Shindengen would be nice here, the more as a proper power rating should be given in Watt, not in Amps (at 12V).

 

(BTW, why would someone want to screw his Guzzi with such a name? I know a lot of people who would never buy other tires but Pirelli for instance, just because Pirelli sounds right).

Correct, the Ducati and most full wave units are series. Their downside is exactly what you state. They cut half the driven current and half the charging at that point. They work good from a cost stand point but suffer in the charging stand point.

 

In regards to three phase units, the output is limited by the regulator, not the diodes, the diodes only drop a half volt so the wattage they have to dissipate is minimal. The majority of the heat is generated in the scr or mosfet during regulation. Every unit I have seen is rated at 14v, which is common charging for lead acid batteries. The silicon isn't the problem, it is the units ability to dissipate the heat created during the regulation. Lack or airflow and low mass are an issue. Some units use a water cooling because of this, such as commonly found on marine products.

 

Using a newer 3 phase unit on a Guzzi is an easy way to provide more stable charging. Overheating isn't an issue.