Enzo's Windage Plate Is On!!!

[Enzo]

Enzo's Windage Plate - pics

[al_roethlisberger]

Sounds like it is an initial success

 

I might be interested in one if there is enough interest to get the price within reason

 

 

...but I'd personally probably wait a while to actually install it, and see how the long term report comes back on yours and anyone elses bike

 

Let me know if/when you make them available.

 

al

[Enzo]

Al,

 

I think if we can get ten interested people, that might be enough to cut some plates. The more, the cheaper. So far so good. We will see how my bike holds up. The only possible theoretical disadvantage that we can think of is loss of oil on the timing chain. We will see about that. As far as we can tell, it solves many potential problems, and, it really seems to add to performance. I'm very surprised about that.

[Paul Minnaert]

>This time, shifting between second and third, the back end literally BROKE LOSE! AND >THE FRONT END HARDLY STAYED ON THE GROUND.! Damn, that was vicious! What a >treat!

 

Every thing you change on the bike seems to work like viagra to you.

 

You seem to have a lot of fun with your bike, that's what they are made for.

[JuhaV]

[Enzo,

 

If the plate will fit a Sport 1100, I will be interested too. I have a slight hesitation, though, thinking about those possible items that the oil mist is supposed to lubricate ?

 

Could you kindly provide a list of ALL mods that your bike currently carries and the latest dyno recording ? I am not yet able to picture clearly a guzzi that lifts the front end without heavy misuse of the clutch.

 

 

br, JuhaV

[Enzo]

JuhaV,

 

I'll find out if it will fit the Sport 1100. Stand by for that. I believe that the spinning crank may yet 'mist' any necessary parts that do not get direct oil feed. That's my hope anyway. As for wheelies, I think ANY V11 will wheelie in first gear without use of clutch - right? Isn't that everybody's experience? Just roll along at about 10 mph and hit the throttle hard, the front end will come up. In addition to that, my front end will come up slightly shifting hard into second, and now third. If I am going up any hill on hard throttle in second or third, I have to be careful the front end doesn't get away if the surface is at all bumpy.

 

I haven't done any internal mods. Just K&Ns and my 2 into 1 exhaust system (Enzo Replica Cobras). And, now my windage plate.

 

I had the bike dyno-ed last month before the windage plate was put on. It was the hottest day of the year in Seattle - 95 degrees F. and the dyno still gave it 87 RWHP. Also, a very flat torque chart. I have that chart on line somewhere I think on my site.

 

I hear a lot about jap bike power, but, honestly, I can't see one running away from me under 100 mph. It sounds pretty wicked too. Yesterday a guy in a parking lot with a Harley shirt came back over from his car and said my bike sounded like the most dominate machine he has ever heard on the street. He owned a Harley and couldn't stop telling me how fast my bike looks and sounds. Man, was he impressed with Guzzi.

[F344]

This looks like the perfect type of project for these guys.

 

http://www.emachineshop.com/

 

I did a rough sketch with their software (See photo) and it came out to about $700.00 for 10 of them,

or $1000.00 for 20 of them. That is in .157 steel

 

FYI

 

Frank

[RacerX]

Sorry guys, waste of time and money. Ed of GuzziTech.com lost a motor because of these things... not to say that some won't work. Perhaps there's a reason that the factory doesn't use them... just a thought.

 

I used a windage tray on my Road-race Buell, which live most of it's life at the top 25% to redline. Who here is running their bike like that on the street... "I mean really (A.P.)".

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

[pete roper]

Sorry guys, waste of time and money. Ed of GuzziTech.com lost a motor because of these things... not to say that some won't work. Perhaps there's a reason that the factory doesn't use them... just a thought.

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

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The vast majority of Guzzis that used to race in the Endurance series in europe in the mid '70's always retired with 'Oiling Problems' namely that the oil was all over the outside of the motor .

 

I can't see how a windage tray could contribute to the destruction of the motor unless the drain back orifices were too small? All parts that are fed by splash will still get more than adequate lubrication from the oil that is being flung out of the side clearance of the rods and the front and rear main bearings, the main purpose of the plate is to prevent oil being picked up and kept in suspension in the gas within the crankcase by the cyclonic forces generated by it's spinning at high speed.

 

I must say I am surprised that Enzo noticed a huge performace benefit but it is possible there will be *a* benefit. The real advantage of using a plate is that it relieves a lot of stress on the breather/separator system and it was for this purpose I did a run of them as especially with older Tonti's that don't use the frame as a condensor it is very, very easy to embarasingly over-tax the breather and return system and heavily lubricate the rear wheel.

 

One of the biggest advantages on the 'Broad Sump' V11 machines would to my mind be that the plate will act as a baffle helping to delay or prevent the exposure of the oil pick up under hard acceleration or pulling wheelies and therefore helping prevent boundary lubriction occuring at big ends and mains.

 

Interesting to note that both I and my traveling companion who I was riding through the depths of Sydney with last weekend on VERY similar bikes both equipped with oil temperature guages. LeMans top ends, 950cc, midrange cams, I run 36mm PHF's, he has 40mm PHM's His flywheel is very light, mine is out of an Eldo . The biggest difference is that my machine has one of my plates installed. His oil temperature was consistently 15 + degrees hotter than mine during the entire boring drone. I put this down to the oil being less aerated and remaining in suspenion for a shorter time allowing better cooling in the sump. Seems to work though, at least on older models.

 

Pete

[al_roethlisberger]

Sorry guys, waste of time and money. Ed of GuzziTech.com lost a motor because of these things... not to say that some won't work. Perhaps there's a reason that the factory doesn't use them... just a thought.

 

I used a windage tray on my Road-race Buell, which live most of it's life at the top 25% to redline. Who here is running their bike like that on the street... "I mean really (A.P.)".

 

ToddGuzziTech.com

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Unfortunately this was the "jist" of Mike Rich's assessment of WPs on MG street bikes He had made many for race bikes, but their engine life-span was by design relatively short, so the benefit of low "oil drag" and "anti foaming" at high RPM was worth the cost of increased engine wear.

 

He actually said it will cause overheating and loss of lubrication(which is the opposite the WP is touted to provide ), due to lack of oil-splash.... especially in the area of the timing chain where oil is passively 'sloshed' into the chest.

 

But I personally have no expertise here, just relating what I recall.... which may be fuzzy.

 

I'd love to hear more weigh-in on the subject.

 

I'm still "interested" but my "jury is still out" on the subject until we learn more long-term.

 

 

al

[Enzo]

Well, I don't mind being a Guinea pig when an idea is sound TO ME. This windage plate idea is sound to me, sound to Pete Roper and sound to Greg Field who gave it some thought. I am not at all surprised by Pete's experience that his engine is running cooler. That only makes sense when the oil is in the sump where it belongs - getting air flow.

 

I also think there must really be a drag created with the cyclone affect extending down into the sump. I think this because I can definitely notice power improvements. The engine also feels more 'lubed-up'. Could be my imagination, but I try to be honest about my experience. It is sort of nice to know that at extreme RPMS, I am getting the same, consistent, and un-aerated oil flow where it belongs.

 

Of course, like I said, the timing chain may be a little under oiled, but I'm not sure. I guess we will see in the long run. For now, I am certainly enjoying the differences in performance.

 

When I consider the intense cyclone vacume at high speed - with the oil in your sump frothing up and actually being suspended, it is a wonder that the oil return can even send oil at those moments to your bearings. Something to think about.

[Enzo]

FRANK!!!

 

What a kick ass idea! Wow, great web site! I didn't know this stuff could be done on line.

 

Here's what I'm gonna do - order one with the correct inputs and dimensions. It will be pretty fun. Then we will lay it on Greg's V11 at home to see if it fits.

 

And, if I can do THAT, I can take on other projects. Vedy vedy interestink.

[Janusz]

Enzo;

 

Could you expand, please, how does the engine more "lubed up" feels?

 

I tried to imagine that feeling for a quite a long time and could not come up with anything. It really fascinates me.

[pete roper]

He actually said it will cause overheating and loss of lubrication(which is the opposite the WP is touted to provide  ), due to lack of oil-splash.... especially in the area of the timing chain where oil is passively 'sloshed' into the chest.

 

al

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I really don't see how it could cause overheating? Oil is flung out of the side clearance on the rods, out of the main bearing journals and out of the cam. The cam has a gallery down the middle which is *filled* from the rear and then oil is sprayed out of drillings radial in the cam, (Have a look.) I don't know if all cams on all models have these radial drillings but I think they mostly do. There is always going to be bags of oil flying around to cool and lube. You just don't need the drag or the excess picked uop from the sump.

 

As for the timing chain? it isn't lubed by oil being *sloshed* into the timing chest. The holes at the bottom of the chest are drains to allow oil that gets into the chest from the front main bearing, cam bearing and oil pump driveshaft and bearings to return to the sump. As it squirts out of the bearings the windage of the chain whizzing around ten to the dozen will ensure that it gets flung around enough to lube everything up! If you are really concerned an easy solution is to block the holes in the bottom of the chest and add another couple of drillings through the back of the timing chest into the crankcase proper about level with the oil pump spindle. This is a trick recommended for people who run timing gears, (even the good ones!) as it ensures the oil pump gear runs in an oil bath and feeds oil up the geartrain. You can use the same principle to ensure that the chain is adequately lubed too but since a chain will quite happily last 120,000Kms without this sort of cosseting I can't really see the point. I did perform this mod to my Hot-Rod when it was in roundfin form and running gears, (Good, steel ones.) but only when somebody pointed out to me it might be a good idea. Prrior to that it had done approximately 200,000 miles with the gears in and no mod and the gears were still really good, as in, almost brand new looking!

 

Look, I'm not claiming that a plate is a panacea for all ills or that it will give huge power increases. Neither Enzo's or my plates are particularly sophisticated, they don't have scrapers or screens, but certainly in my bikes they run cooler and don't overwhelm the breather system.

 

What was the failure Ed experienced Todd?

 

Pete

[Guest aj howard]

Hey Pete,

 

Did you ever read "The Chevrolet Racing Engine" by Bill Jenkins?

Bill is one of the pioneers of Pro Stock drag racing in the 60's and 70's. Had his mech engineering degree from Cornell. He built small block chevies (which I belive sound a hell of a lot like a Guzzi) that would run at 14,000 rpm.... and did all kinds of stuff that everyone takes for granted today.

 

Anywho..

 

I remember reading what he wrote about seeing high speed films that GM had on what he called "windage" and how oil coming off the cam crank and drains would ball up and float around the crank at high rpm's due to the vortex created until it was hit. Then it would reform on the walls of the block and do it all over again. He built wipers that were cut to match the crankshaft profile to scrape the floating oil off and get it to go into the sump..

Great book if you can find it.. very heavy theory but great book.