V1100 Bevel box failure

[rossoandy]

Hi all. Has anyone else had a bevel box failure on V1100? Mine developed play in the pinion bearing which I only found when giving the bike a check over.I was feeling for any play in the drive u/j's when I detected lift in the bevel box inut shaft. I drained the oil from it to find a silvery sheen to it..OH NO!!! BAD NEWS !!

The box was removed from the bike and I removed the cover plate (tight fit this). I could see no major failure at this time but decided to strip the whole lot out.

The unit is assembled at the factory with little thought of how it might come apart at a future date with many bearings being fitted into blind holes in the alloy casings. These bearings are needle roller with outer races the thickness of a piece of tin! The pinion itself is mounted on a huge specialist bearing,part ball and part roller bearing,guess this to take axial and radial loadings. (thrust effect of pinion). This bearing is very tightly held by a large castle nut and is VERY tight. I managed to undo mine by a few sharp taps with a large punch and then unscrewed it all the way with a tool I made up. The pinion bearing still needs to be pulled from the housing with a slide hammer srewed into the thread in the end of the shaft. Once out I found that the problem was failure of the small inner support bearing for the pinion. It had prettty well totally disintergrated leaving the inner race badly worn on the pinion and the remains of the outer track in the housing. This inner bearing is held in place by a retaining plate held with two x head screws. Removal of the remains of this bearing was a problem due to its small size,situation and in a blind hole. I warmed the case,freeeze sprayed the bearing and managed eventually to get it out.The inner race was easier,I simply ground through the remains being carefull not to damage the shaft. All the bearings in the box had suffered the effects of contamination from metal particules and so were all changed. I was lucky in that I had access to a press which helped remove some of the bearings.

I would like to say that ALL the bearings are available from bearing factors at hugely reduced prices to those quoted by GUZZI dealers even the special pinion bearing. (FAG bearings mostly)

I was disapointed to also find the pinion/crownwheel tooth contact was never right from the factory and having ran for over 18k miles its too late to realign it now as there is significant wear showing on the contact points.

So everyone be aware...the bevel box is not the bulletproof component I believed it to be, check yours for play and fix before it blows completly...

Oh,remember to try and undo pinion nut whilst box still on bike, its very tight and I could'nt get mine undone when box was part stripped on bench! I had to cut it off...still prob good to replace lock nut anyway.

Finally I would like to recomend Jack at BRT bearings Ashford Kent for all his help in competitively sourcing the bearings,if anyone wants his no I happy to pass on.He has kept a list of all brgs/seals req to do the job. I woulda posted his no but not sure its allowed on here?

Got several pics of this but cant seem to get em to post...file size 480k per pic ok?

[richard100t]

I know about the silvery color to the gearbox & rear drive units oil when it is drained. I've since switched to RedLine heavy shockproof fluid & when I drained the gearbox it looked pretty much like it did when I put it in. No silver color to it at all after about 7 or 8k miles. I havent drained the rear drive yet because I need to get another quart of the redline but I'll post about wether theres a silver color to that used oil. I thought that it just shouldnt be as bad as it was so I tried the synthetic redline. It improved the gearbox action with the shifting. I cant really tell a difference with the rear drive as far as riding it. I believe Guzzi probably saved a few nickels per bike by using cheaper bearings, so I'll only use synthetic oil from now on in both the gearbox & especially the rear drive.

[mike wilson]

Got several pics of this but cant seem to get em to post...file size 480k per pic ok?

 

Pics would be good. No need for files that size. About 1/4 of that will be plenty. Try resizing them in a photo editing programme.

[rossoandy]

I know about the silvery color to the gearbox & rear drive units oil when it is drained. I've since switched to RedLine heavy shockproof fluid & when I drained the gearbox it looked pretty much like it did when I put it in. No silver color to it at all after about 7 or 8k miles. I havent drained the rear drive yet because I need to get another quart of the redline but I'll post about wether theres a silver color to that used oil. I thought that it just shouldnt be as bad as it was so I tried the synthetic redline. It improved the gearbox action with the shifting. I cant really tell a difference with the rear drive as far as riding it. I believe Guzzi probably saved a few nickels per bike by using cheaper bearings, so I'll only use synthetic oil from now on in both the gearbox & especially the rear drive.

 

Richard, I used the very best oil plus moly additive when I changed the oil at 7k last,I deliberately missed an oil change as I felt with modern high quality lub plus additive there shouldnt be a need to change it,most modern vehicles in fact are 'sealed for life' on this sort of component! The level was checked couple of times and never moved. As for the bearings FAG are a reputable manufacturer and a manufacturing fault here unlikely. I feel Lugi probobaly used to big a hammer at Mandello! Although of course we cant rule out my extended change interval. Thanks for your comments though be interested to hear how gearbox oil change goes.

[richard100t]

Oh its more likely than not that something was a little wrong with your rear drive when new. I was just saying that I've heard several forum members talk about the silvery metal residue when changing their trans/rear drive oil. My experience was that I had the silvery metal residue in my trans & rear drive oil when I changed it until I used the redline product. It may well be a coincidence that the gears had mated well together by the time I got around to using the redline instead of conventional oil. I'd say my bike had around 9000 miles on it when I did the switch & 17000 miles when I drained it out. I did the rear drive at the same time & I expect to pick up some more redline next weekend & I'll keep you posted on whether theres any residue in the rear drives old oil when I swap it out.

I first changed the trans & rear drive oil at about 1500 miles then again at 5000 miles with the same silver residue. Thats what leads me to believe that the redline is a superior product right now.

[Paul Minnaert]

well we had a topic with pics on this before:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2391

 

Or isn't this what you are talking about?

[richard100t]

well we had a topic with pics on this before:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2391

 

Or isn't this what you are talking about?

Wow that is a very thorough & detailed thread on the rear drive. That will probably come in handy to a few of us in the upcoming years & miles on our bikes.

[rossoandy]

well we had a topic with pics on this before:

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2391

 

Or isn't this what you are talking about?

Thanks Paul for your reply,I did have a quick search b4 posting but obv missed it!

 

I will add that the big 'special' bearing IS available at about half the Guzzi price and yes getting that special nut undone is a bit of a problem.I was lucky,a few sharp cracks with a large parellel punch loosened it enough for me to unscrew it with a makeshift tool. The actual pinion nut is extremly tight too and should be tackled before the box is outa the bike so u can use the rear brake to lock the wheel and therefore the pinion. Another way might be a piece of rag suffed into the teeth of the drive and temporary refiting the cover back on to undo nut. (my air gun wouldnt touch it)!

I feel for the home mechanic the hardest thing is getting the old bearings out of blind holes.

I had to relace every bearing due to swarf contamination from the failed pinion nose bearing.

Interesting to see I not alone in this failure....the pics of failure are identical to mine.

I feel sure poor assembly to blame at manufacture.

Maybe Guzzi build these faults in to give us something to do???? !!!!

Its called character!! pah.

[Paul Minnaert]

heating the alu case with a torch is the way to get things out that are tight. I did ask the importer of the big bearing here in the netherlands, but they said they could't deliver, because it was only for the oem.

[pasotibbs]

just stripped my bevel and found this

If your pinion wobbles get it checked !!!

[rossoandy]

just stripped my bevel and found this

If your pinion wobbles get it checked !!!

Thats an identical failure to mine.....wonder how many more out there?

How you find the play in it? Did you see a slight oil weep or was you checking the drive u/j? Or had you seen the thread earlier and decided to check yours? Have you got parts lined up yet? Good luck.

[pasotibbs]

I noticed the pinion wobble when I greased the shaft joints and as I used to be a car mechanic knew that wasn't right !!

After reading Pete's strip down report I took the box to my local dealer, he said that all V11's had the same play and he could strip and replace the bearings if I really wanted but as I was going to the Trofeo Rosso I decided to leave it until the winter, but after reading your report I decided I'd tackle it myself.I haven't ordered the bearings yet but I have your list to work off so I'm hoping to organise that this week (its going to take me a while to remove the old bearings and find a deep 36mm socket for the pinion nut anyway!!)

[rossoandy]

I noticed the pinion wobble when I greased the shaft joints and as I used to be a car mechanic knew that wasn't right !!

After reading Pete's strip down report I took the box to my local dealer, he said that all V11's had the same play and he could strip and replace the bearings if I really wanted but as I was going to the Trofeo Rosso I decided to leave it until the winter, but after reading your report I decided I'd tackle it myself.I haven't ordered the bearings yet but I have your list to work off so I'm hoping to organise that this week (its going to take me a while to remove the old bearings and find a deep 36mm socket for the pinion nut anyway!!)

How many miles it done?

[pasotibbs]

How many miles it done?

I was told that it had a new Speedo around 5k and I noticed the wobble not that long after I bought it with the new speedo showing 5k so approx 10-12k , but who knows how long its been like that.

When I was in France last year I called in at Reboot and noticed they had a V11 final drive for sale but it also had the same amount of play as mine I think that most V11's must have this fault to some degree ?

I've just got to work out how to get the bearings out and the new ones in without damaging them , this may be more than a winter project (unless its next winter by the time I finish )

 

I rang Jack today and he is sorting the bearings out for me.

[rossoandy]

I was told that it had a new Speedo around 5k and I noticed the wobble not that long after I bought it with the new speedo showing 5k so approx 10-12k , but who knows how long its been like that.

When I was in France last year I called in at Reboot and noticed they had a V11 final drive for sale but it also had the same amount of play as mine I think that most V11's must have this fault to some degree ?

I've just got to work out how to get the bearings out and the new ones in without damaging them , this may be more than a winter project (unless its next winter by the time I finish )

 

I rang Jack today and he is sorting the bearings out for me.

Ha thats interesting you say Reboot had one in stock..was it a crackle finish one? They broke my first Rosso about four years ago (it caught alight). When I asked about it they wanted much too much for it in my opinion. My first Rosso did only 300miles so box shoulda been good if it was my old one. Surely cant have been after this time? Thanks for giving Jack the business,always feel it good to support people who try that bit harder. Anyone who wants bearings outa the ordinary could do far worse.( I'll see him for my pint later)! lol I used my mates press for crownwheel brgs,although it didnt take a lot of pressure to shift.There will be NIL play when its back together. mail me if you want a chat about job and I wil telephone you or vica/versa.