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So many great replies. We have had so many of these "custom build" topics, but this one grew into a life of its own! I was fortunate to visit the Guggenheim "Art of the Motorcycle " exhibit when they displayed it in Memphis at "The Pyramid ". I am not convinced our wee group that descended upon the exhibit could have been considered Art Aficionados, yet we pored over the exhibit with a passion equal to the highest level enthusiast of the Classic Painters . I love the triad that @Lucky Phil introduced as Design/Engineering /Fabrication , and the extension of that thinking, suggested by @Speedfrog: "If you think of the motorcycle as a blend of this trio of design/engineering/fabrication, it’s fair to say that different people value different ratios of these elements for what represents their ideal motorcycle. " > As far as any particular motorcycle being seen as an object d'art , I submit the time I was saddling up at a coffee shop in the city and some young fellow re-parked his family's car and leapt out to get a close-up look at mySPORT, exuberantly exclaiming, "IS THAT ITALIAN?!? MAN!! THAT IS A WORK OF ART !!!! " No idea who the fellow was or how he might have been trained or educated, but he obviously had good taste! > Exhibit Two: Those various motorcycles that have been displayed in our "lounge rooms " or "dining rooms ." As well as those of us who wish we could if The Minister of Stately Affairs would stand for it . . . As for mySport, she must settle her artly-self on the dais in the footlights of the shop. Long may I devote myself to fabrications that consider her engineering and respect her design ~ ~ ~

The Arts. A pretty big category. One can earn a Bachelor of Arts degree or Master of Arts Degree. These are distinguished from Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees by the focus of study. An MA in Psychology (the art of understanding people) might be used in clinical practice, while an MS in Psychology (the science of understanding people) might be used in clinical research. Perhaps for the visual arts, a functional object is considered art when the design of the object makes it desirable or interesting even when not used for its intended purpose. For example, When my Yamaha TW200 is parked next to my Moto Guzzi Nero Corsa, nobody wants to know more about the TW. And nobody says "you should park that TW in your living room." Similar reactions can be expected if the above vase were to be displayed on a shelf next to an empty plastic milk jug. FWIW - When I bought my Scura, it was already over 10 years old and had less than 200 miles on it. The previous owner bought it, maybe rode it once or twice, then parked it in his living room, where it functioned as art for a decade or so. It is now a motorcycle in my garage. So whether something is art or not may also be determined by the way people choose to interact with the object.

One might see a car... One might see a people transporting device riddled with engineering flaws and practical inadequacy... This 20th century boy sees an artful mechanical creation. I could look at this thing all day and feel the weight of the world being lifted, if I could drive it, that feeling would be 100 fold. Don't even think about owning it...

Phil - I think your definition is about as close as you can get to anything ressembling a universal definition. I've been asking people this question all my life, and the truth is there is no perfect answer. That said, there are always exceptions to rules and definitions. Take a look at the attached photo of a decorative pitcher from the Italian Renaissance (probably a repro). It was created for, and used to carry and pour water as it's simple function. It certainly could have been left as unadorned fired clay. But as it is seen and used every day, advanced cultures elevated it with an artistic intervention to be more than a vessel. It is certainly now a piece of art. I feel certain (rare) motorcycles like the MV F4 750 in the hands of people like Tamburini, who live, breath, and dream about every aspect of their design do in fact elevate the Motorcycle to art - perhaps more accurately "performance art". Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I took these photos a couple weeks ago while in Mandello del Lario down the street from the Guzzi factory red gate. I think we can all agree this is art! Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

When the people of Lascaux started to ornament the walls of their caves with depictions of the fauna surrounding them, I don’t think the notion of art existed. It was first and foremost a mode of expression and the realization that one’s self expression could not only satisfy the artist but bring pleasure to the people exposed to it. The same could be said about sculpture, music or any other art form. Art only exists within an audience.

Even if maybe I don't fully agree, I think I can understand not considering any production vehicle, as beautiful as they can be, to be art, particularly for someone with a lifelong career as an engineer in the aviation industry, with its stringent safety and regulations requirements. I imagine that the engineering element would be revered, overshadowing all other aspects of the machine. I respect (even admire) that. All the vehicles you are referencing are the products of a manufacturer created "as a transportation device" for the specific purpose of "transporting people". Although the design briefs couldn't have been farther apart in terms of people transport between the Spitfire, a single seater fighter aircraft, and the Concorde, a luxury supersonic airliner capable of carrying 100+ passengers... I must confess that I've always thought the Supermarine Spitfire (along with the Jaguar E-Type) to be the sexiest machine(s) to ever come out of British manufacturing. But, I digress... Motorcycles in general, as a mode of transportation, are a rather individualistic affair, being only able to only carry two people at best, maybe three with a side car, but in the case of the bikes discussed here, mostly one. I would add that in this era, in the US in particular, a majority of motorcycle owners see their bikes as an object of leisure and not so much as a mode of transport. Although, what is the saying again, "a Honda transport the body but a guzzi transport the soul". Transportation either way... But I digress again. So what of custom built bikes? This inherent individuality, and the fact that they are relatively simple machine, lends itself to personalize, transform and create entirely new and unique machines. Unchained from the constraints of mass production, an individual becomes free to favor any one aspect of the trio design/engineering/fabrication over the others. The lines can be blurry but when this endeavor gives birth to a single unique specimen at the hands of a skilled artisan, a visionary creator, what I see is Art... Rolling Art.

Couple years ago I rode down with my father and my two sons to Birmingham Al. Although I had been to Barber a half dozen times, watching Landon’s (5 at the time) react to this museum with motorcycles displayed like art was priceless. His first reaction was pure excitement, amazement and passion. For the following hour we tried to keep him from running through the museum screaming at us to look at the many motorcycles on display. It’s the passion that true art can extract that makes the difference to me. Not many places do it better than Barber Museum. Lastly, of course I took their picture next to a MGS-01.

I could not agree more LowRyter. As you know from the other forum, I sold my Supersport. I briefly considered selling my 03 Le Mans instead, but soon realized I would regret that far more. I look forward to riding it more than my Thruxton RS or R1200RS. The design has always just seemed right, and very Italian. Still puts the biggest smile on my face when I take it for a long ride. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

One of the issues with fastener surface finish be it for colour or corrosion protection is it doesn't last and ages. Part of the reason all my bikes get the titanium fastener treatment. Titanium is not only light and strong but the surface finish remains in brand new out of the packaging condition for ever. Some owner in a hundred years is going to appreciate that. Phil

I have the previous iteration of the Speedhut speedometer. Lamp/needle lighting are on switched power, the GPS is hard wired to the battery. I measured a 100mA with the ignition switch off. Luckily, I can easily disconnect the speedo from the battery..as long as I remember to do so!

Well after 42 years as an aircraft engineer almost exclusively on commercial jets ( I worked on DC4's as an apprentice as well) anything with screaming turbo props leaves me cold in the visceral sense. It might look beautiful in an image like you posted but as soon as those turboprops wind up it's lost me. It's just a tool from then on. A pretty and highly competent tool but a tool non the less. Art? No. Pretty? yes. Beautiful? maybe. Phil

I think this is one of the most beautiful airplanes ever designed, along with the Lockheed Constellation. It can stir my soul just like an older Ducati 750 bevel or a V11. Something about the lines that just keep me looking. Isn't that what art does? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not everything can spin your propeller, but this Piaggio Avanti does it for me.

Good story….

Once something enters the world of having at it's core reason to exist a physical functionality, purpose or use it's not part of the "art" world in my view. A motorcycle or a car by definition are transportation devices first and foremost as is an aircraft. They can be beautifully designed, formed and crafted but in my mind they are not art. A Spitfire no matter how beautiful the design is, is never referred to as a piece of "art" nor was the Concord or any other aircraft ever produced that I can think of for that matter. I wonder why people are so quick to assign the tag of "art" to a particular motorcycle as I've seen many times but not to something like a Spitfire? Both machines designed to transport people to a location albeit by different means but a beautiful motorcycle somehow enters the realms of "art" for some and the beautiful aircraft does not. A mystery to me at least. The acid test is ask a non motorcyclist if the MV Agusta F41000 is "art" and they'll look at you like you are insane. BTW my MV along with the 1000SS Ducati lived in my lounge room and dining room for years. Phil

3 screws hold it on, and three are essentially decorative. I assume the 6-hole pattern is an industry standard and Moto Guzzi only needed 4 screws to attach to the tank. I say 4, not 3, because there is a fastener under the lid. ...and as for blackening bits on a Scura... that is important work.

Stuff like this is why I love this forum.

Meme save: ethylene = ethanol =

Sorry.... Of course you are right. Mix up.... I meant Ethanol.

I can see the point that the technicians having to troubleshoot that wiring harness might not see that as art.

https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=F8vv2AjUzGQ

@GuzziMoto Agreed re the air density variations affecting combustion. Temperatures as well. Humidity. Everything comes into play. Ethylene addition affects it too. The V11 was produced up until 2005. All the recommendations made by Guzzi at that time did not factor Ethylene in gas, as it was not yet compulsory. From 2000, in Europe, the transition to leadless fuels started. If anything there wasn't a clear vision of fuel evolution. Even today, it is a bit of a mash up. 5% Ethanol, 10% Ethanol, up to 15% Ethanol, 85% Ethanol. Ethanol free...

"Vampire" power draw is not that hard. Just hang a multi-meter that can do amps between one of the battery cables and its pole. This is ok, because mult-meters that can measure current can generally (I believe...) handle around 10 amps, and anything sneaky that is draining your battery is likely to be much less than that. Measuring higher currents is a little more difficult. There are measuring devices that clip around the cable to be measured. I believe they use induction, but I don't have one so the knowledge is sketchy. I stumbled over this post a while back: It describes how to build a "shunt" which allows one to measure current by measuring the voltage drop along a piece of wire. Good for measuring high currents. As far as the grips go, if you have any documentation on them or can find any markings on them, you can calculate the current draw from the power rating, if you can find a number for it. The formula is hier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power#Definition specifically: power rating of the device / 12 volts = current draw

I have mentioned this before, I will mention it again. The air density affects the octane requirements of any non-forced induction gasoline piston engine. As air density goes down, octane requirements go down. So, at higher elevations a given motor will have lower octane requirements. I have been to some higher altitude places where the fuel available was 85 octane. That isn't even an option where I live. People riding their V11 closer to sea level will need more octane then people riding their V11 in the Rockies will. I figure the generic octane requirements published are likely to be worst case, higher air density, higher engine temps, etc. The wife's V11 manual says 91 octane (95 RON), but I have no doubt it could safely run on 89 or even 87 octane in many situations. But I am also pretty sure in some situations that lower octane could be an issue. Safer and easier to run it at the higher octane.

Thinking about that, it is probably more accurate to see it the other way around. If something obviously wont work well because of its design, I find it very difficult to see any beauty in it. Prime example: the extended forks on an extreme chopper, and the associated combination of a very skinny tyre at the front and a ridiculously wide one at the back.

I am reminded of a "rule" that I learned very early on at University: The question was posed "when does noise become music?", and we were taught that the correct answer is "when the composer says it is music". Perhaps I should note that the course of study was music theory with a focus on 20th. century composition. Anyway, the idea behind the "correct answer" can be applied to anything. When the creator maintains it is art, then it is art. One can express one's own opinion of the object as art, but not deny that it is art. Therefore, if someone puts a heap of bits together to make something that resembles a motorcycle and says it is art, then it is. It may very well be bad art, and equally likely a bad motorcycle, but it is art because the person who made it says it is. Christo comes to mind: very successful, very popular, but what a wank. Having said all that, I personally tend to land in the court with Phil and Pete. A motorcycle must, first and foremost, work properly. Modifications should primarily be aimed at improving the function. Generally, the form of a functional improvment is pleasing to my eye. Things like titanium fasteners and well finished machining are the final touches that make a bike beautiful and not just pretty.

Perhaps I am wrong that the Quota and "EV" V11 could run reliably on US "Regular Gas" (87 octane AKI). I will research my collection of Moto Guzzi Sales Brochures to see where the claimed compression ratio may have changed. Whether that coincided with the oil sprayer change, and how these things were accomplished, could only be divined by our members that have that "inside information" from being certified Moto Guzzi technicians at that time, or others that have had these various V11 (Sport/LeMans) motors apart . . .

https://cycle-ergo.com/ Phil

@docc Look page 9 of this manual: https://www.thisoldtractor.com/mg_manuals/owners_manual_quota_1100.pdf Remember that Italy kept selling leaded gasoline quoted SP97 for Super 97 NO could mean "numero di ottano"; this Quota operator's manual looks like an excel spreadsheet converted to PDF. We get to the same conclusion: 95 NO is the minimum of Octanes for leadless fuels. Equates to 91 AKI. All the questions you have are valid, but where to get the answers?

Well, I hope the manufacturer of the tank bag knew that. Four screws holding the ring, and two of them in the short holes. It's one of these.... https://www.hepco-becker.de/tankring-lock-it-inkl-tankrucksackgegenhalter-fuer-moto-guzzi-scura-le-mans-ballabio-coppa-italia-cafe-sport-sport-naked-sport.html Incidentally, the kit includes spacers that put the ring high enough to clear the chin pad. That means, on mine, no chin pad, there is nearly a half an inch breezeway between the bracket and the top of the tank. When I get the lengths of the spacers and screws worked out so that it sits down close to a tank without a chin pad, I'll post it here. PS: I have absolutely no doubt that blackening bits on a Scura is the single most important thing in the entire universe.

Yes, I had a very similar thought whilst reading that.

Not sure if Pete is referring to Chuck or Phil as the airplane builder, but wanted to share this photo of the Cozy Mk III (Burt Rutan design) that my brother built from scratch from a set of blueprints. "Only" 7 years to complete... Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

There is this notion floating around of the motorcycle as a single entity. Comparing production bikes to full custom build seems a bit unfair when considering the amount of resources and budget of a manufacturer and those of (often) a single individual. On the balance, the manufacturer’s engineering & design teams have to adhere to a strict specification bill where the individual builder is freed of all constraints, allowing a full expression of his/her creativity. Another aspect is motorcycle racing, where a production bike is being transformed by an individual or a small team into a racing machine, engineering becomes primordial in achieving the best performance possible and aesthetics are only a result of functionality. Another form of creativity. If you think of the motorcycle as a blend of this trio of design/engineering/fabrication, it’s fair to say that different people value different ratios of these elements for what represents their ideal motorcycle.

Beaubier did not make it to race 2; PJJ had a better strategy this time. Although I thought Gagne had a late overtake planned in the last lap, but the back marker unfortunate encounter failed his attempt.

Well-stated Scud. This brings up the heart of the conversation "blending artistry and engineering". The epitome of this pursuit was during the Renaissance, with Leonardo da Vinci likely being the most notable example. The best artists were also engineers and/or architects and vice-versa. And it was not only from their training, but their patrons expected them to have a keen interest and curiosity in both. This is no longer the case. In most cultures today, professions are pigeon-holed to focus on one thing and do it well. Most current engineering programs are devoid of any significant classes in the arts. As an architect for past 40 years, I deal with capable engineers on a daily basis. But try to have a conversation with them about any design intents or theories, and you get "just tell me what depth you need the beam and I'll do the calcs and let you know the options". Most of them couldn't tell you the first thing about the accomplishments of Leonardo, Eiffel, or Wright. The increasingly homely automotive and motorcycle designs of the past two decades are evidence of lack empathy and collaboration between engineering and design departments (I would suggest especially evident in recent design trends from Japan, who had previously produced some outstanding designs). The single exception I've experienced consistently (having completed a few projects there) is the design and engineering culture of Italy. There, engineers are still expected to be well-informed of all arts and history, and are passionate about it. Engineer/Designers such as Tamburini, Zagato, Michelotti, Taglioni, and Magni all had in-depth and integrated knowledge of every aspect of the cars or bikes they were designing and were usually involved in every step. This is true "blending of artistry and engineering", and the reason why Italy has produced, and will continue to produce, the most revered and emulated designs of our age. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

@KINDOY2 Mike + Tom = Heartbreakers

What people choose to do aesthetically or 'Artistically' to their bikes concerns me not a jot and I fully agree with your assessment that such things are subjective and if people want to do such things? Knock yerself out! That doesn't mean that I can't mock them as ugly and most importantly it doesn't mean that what they have done will be either 'Special' or indeed work in an engineering or mechanical sense. So many people make absurd and impossible claims about performance and functionality it just shits me to tears. I've tried to explain many times why the 8V 'Nuovo Hi-Cam' can't be made to make power and torque figures that can genuinely only be made by much more sophisticated engines but this is either ignored outright or some picture of a 'Dyno Chart' will be produced to 'Prove' the point! Sorry, but trying to use the laws of physics to argue against ignorance and stupidity is a fools errand. Dunno why I even bother apart from the fact I don't want the gullible being taken in by charlatans. With the old pushrod lump it's even more frustrating. Especially when stuck in a Tonti frame with a five speed gearbox and pre V11 final drive. You can, reliably, make mid eighties RWHP from an 1100. The factory erred on the side of conservatism and the donk makes about 76 in the V11. Yes you can get it to make more, but at a price. Now imagine what it's going to be like putting that power, or more, through a clutch, gearbox and driveline designed to handle not much more than 50? Its life span will in the words of some nineteenth century philosopher, be Brutish and Short! So what does that mean? Either these people have managed to change the laws of physics and the sciences of metallurgy, and engineering! Or? They are full of shit! I reiterate, if people like these things as 'Art'? Fine. Knock yerself out. To me they are obnoxious gobshitery! NOBODY HAS TO AGREE WITH ME!

Right on point @footgoose ^^^^^^ The critic is easy, I think anyone's efforts to modify, embellish or otherwise improve a vehicle to satisfy their own vision and desire is highly commendable and should be respected, be it a motorcycle, a car, a bicycle or an airplane... As beautiful and satisfying as production designs can be, there is always room for improvement and personalization, one just has to look at how extensive the farkle market is. The result might not be to everyone's taste but, as I said before, if we all had the same taste, life would be rather dull. And isn't that the essence of customization in the first place -"a modification made to something to suit a particular individual". Of course there are times where some efforts might seem misguided >>>

Could be worse

This one still has my vote: https://caferacergarage.eu/moto-guzzi-griso-1100-zero-by-officine-rossopuro/