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So because of a huge house renovation, I have not had a lot of time to ride my Italian bikes However, the previous car was increasing in maintenance (and a diesel, which was not the right choice anymore), so I wanted something else. And well, the Italian blood was already there, so I bought my 4th Italian vehicle, this time with 4 wheels.

No need to look any further than the very pages of this forum to see pictures of one's accomplishment proudly posted for everyone's attention and debate. It might not be Art but the process is the same. We are social creatures and we value our peers opinion and revel in their approval. It's also a good way to open up one's own limited view to a broader perspective.

I heard a Public Art artist once said "If your mom likes it, it's not Art"...

I have tried to think of any artist I have known that did not care about the audience, accolades, or evocation their art might create. It is a compelling concept that "It is art " as soon as the creator means it to be so. Something "created" and meant to evoke (an approval, a response, emotion, criticism, maybe a purchase . . . ). I have seen painters, sculptors, musicians, writers, poets (and yes: industrial arts builders) display their creations and quietly stand back and revel in the unsettled arguments over their effective evocation. Zappa's "music", very intentionally, did this with some of his dystonic, anti-melodic projects. "Art?" He certainly meant it as such. Hunter S. Thompson comes to mind in literature, "Song of the Sausage Creature ." And in painting? Too many culprits to count! Picasso and Dali come readily to mind. From where we stand, using a motorcycle (especially a Moto Guzzi, and most especially a SpineFrame) as a palette for artistic expression is a formula for "unsettled arguments" and evocative emotions . . . "I love it!" "No! It pisses me off" Heh - must be "art ! "

I took these photos a couple weeks ago while in Mandello del Lario down the street from the Guzzi factory red gate. I think we can all agree this is art! Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Even if maybe I don't fully agree, I think I can understand not considering any production vehicle, as beautiful as they can be, to be art, particularly for someone with a lifelong career as an engineer in the aviation industry, with its stringent safety and regulations requirements. I imagine that the engineering element would be revered, overshadowing all other aspects of the machine. I respect (even admire) that. All the vehicles you are referencing are the products of a manufacturer created "as a transportation device" for the specific purpose of "transporting people". Although the design briefs couldn't have been farther apart in terms of people transport between the Spitfire, a single seater fighter aircraft, and the Concorde, a luxury supersonic airliner capable of carrying 100+ passengers... I must confess that I've always thought the Supermarine Spitfire (along with the Jaguar E-Type) to be the sexiest machine(s) to ever come out of British manufacturing. But, I digress... Motorcycles in general, as a mode of transportation, are a rather individualistic affair, being only able to only carry two people at best, maybe three with a side car, but in the case of the bikes discussed here, mostly one. I would add that in this era, in the US in particular, a majority of motorcycle owners see their bikes as an object of leisure and not so much as a mode of transport. Although, what is the saying again, "a Honda transport the body but a guzzi transport the soul". Transportation either way... But I digress again. So what of custom built bikes? This inherent individuality, and the fact that they are relatively simple machine, lends itself to personalize, transform and create entirely new and unique machines. Unchained from the constraints of mass production, an individual becomes free to favor any one aspect of the trio design/engineering/fabrication over the others. The lines can be blurry but when this endeavor gives birth to a single unique specimen at the hands of a skilled artisan, a visionary creator, what I see is Art... Rolling Art.

Here's a link to a picture of what I described above, when I replace gauges on Nero Corsa:

Just remove the whole gauge assembly from the bike. There are only three screws and a couple plugs. Then you can lay the whole assembly on a towel on the workbench and drop the plastic cup over the gauges. It is damn near impossible to get everything lined up when it's on the bike... but I think you already learned that. Further tip. Once you get everything lined up, with the gauge cup on - then take the cup off and make sure those lamp parts are screwed together tight. Extra nuts to lock them in place will help. Then final assembly on bench and mount the complete unit back on the bike. Then, on the rare occasion that you need a new lamp, the gauge cup will drop off without losing the alignment of the fasteners.

I made the decision to go with the lamp parts method in order to leave the back housing un-molested. $50, a few sparks, and some JB weld later I have the setup in the pictures below. However, I became very frustrated as I am having a really difficult time getting the screws to line up with the holes in the back housing. Also, the added brackets has reduced the amount of space to stash the extra wiring, I may now have to cut back some of the excess and redo the spade connections. Last night I got to the point where I almost decided to just go ahead and take all the lamp parts off and just go back to using the lock nuts and cutting the housing. Does anyone have any tips on a way to easily align those four mounting screws with the holes on the back? I would hope I don't have to go through this struggle any time I would need to remove the housing in the future to change a light bulb. I may just go ahead and replace all the warning lights with LEDs right now to avoid having to do it later. Does anyone have a link to the appropriate LED replacement bulb for the warning lights?

Nice Greenie for sale in LA. https://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/mcy/d/la-habra-2001-moto-guzzi-v11-sport/7650086689.html

The prince of darkness.

Meme save: ethylene = ethanol =

One might see a car... One might see a people transporting device riddled with engineering flaws and practical inadequacy... This 20th century boy sees an artful mechanical creation. I could look at this thing all day and feel the weight of the world being lifted, if I could drive it, that feeling would be 100 fold. Don't even think about owning it...

When the people of Lascaux started to ornament the walls of their caves with depictions of the fauna surrounding them, I don’t think the notion of art existed. It was first and foremost a mode of expression and the realization that one’s self expression could not only satisfy the artist but bring pleasure to the people exposed to it. The same could be said about sculpture, music or any other art form. Art only exists within an audience.

The Arts. A pretty big category. One can earn a Bachelor of Arts degree or Master of Arts Degree. These are distinguished from Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees by the focus of study. An MA in Psychology (the art of understanding people) might be used in clinical practice, while an MS in Psychology (the science of understanding people) might be used in clinical research. Perhaps for the visual arts, a functional object is considered art when the design of the object makes it desirable or interesting even when not used for its intended purpose. For example, When my Yamaha TW200 is parked next to my Moto Guzzi Nero Corsa, nobody wants to know more about the TW. And nobody says "you should park that TW in your living room." Similar reactions can be expected if the above vase were to be displayed on a shelf next to an empty plastic milk jug. FWIW - When I bought my Scura, it was already over 10 years old and had less than 200 miles on it. The previous owner bought it, maybe rode it once or twice, then parked it in his living room, where it functioned as art for a decade or so. It is now a motorcycle in my garage. So whether something is art or not may also be determined by the way people choose to interact with the object.

Phil - I think your definition is about as close as you can get to anything ressembling a universal definition. I've been asking people this question all my life, and the truth is there is no perfect answer. That said, there are always exceptions to rules and definitions. Take a look at the attached photo of a decorative pitcher from the Italian Renaissance (probably a repro). It was created for, and used to carry and pour water as it's simple function. It certainly could have been left as unadorned fired clay. But as it is seen and used every day, advanced cultures elevated it with an artistic intervention to be more than a vessel. It is certainly now a piece of art. I feel certain (rare) motorcycles like the MV F4 750 in the hands of people like Tamburini, who live, breath, and dream about every aspect of their design do in fact elevate the Motorcycle to art - perhaps more accurately "performance art". Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

Couple years ago I rode down with my father and my two sons to Birmingham Al. Although I had been to Barber a half dozen times, watching Landon’s (5 at the time) react to this museum with motorcycles displayed like art was priceless. His first reaction was pure excitement, amazement and passion. For the following hour we tried to keep him from running through the museum screaming at us to look at the many motorcycles on display. It’s the passion that true art can extract that makes the difference to me. Not many places do it better than Barber Museum. Lastly, of course I took their picture next to a MGS-01.

Well after 42 years as an aircraft engineer almost exclusively on commercial jets ( I worked on DC4's as an apprentice as well) anything with screaming turbo props leaves me cold in the visceral sense. It might look beautiful in an image like you posted but as soon as those turboprops wind up it's lost me. It's just a tool from then on. A pretty and highly competent tool but a tool non the less. Art? No. Pretty? yes. Beautiful? maybe. Phil

I could not agree more LowRyter. As you know from the other forum, I sold my Supersport. I briefly considered selling my 03 Le Mans instead, but soon realized I would regret that far more. I look forward to riding it more than my Thruxton RS or R1200RS. The design has always just seemed right, and very Italian. Still puts the biggest smile on my face when I take it for a long ride. Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

I think this is one of the most beautiful airplanes ever designed, along with the Lockheed Constellation. It can stir my soul just like an older Ducati 750 bevel or a V11. Something about the lines that just keep me looking. Isn't that what art does? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not everything can spin your propeller, but this Piaggio Avanti does it for me.

https://cycle-ergo.com/ Phil

So many great replies. We have had so many of these "custom build" topics, but this one grew into a life of its own! I was fortunate to visit the Guggenheim "Art of the Motorcycle " exhibit when they displayed it in Memphis at "The Pyramid ". I am not convinced our wee group that descended upon the exhibit could have been considered Art Aficionados, yet we pored over the exhibit with a passion equal to the highest level enthusiast of the Classic Painters . I love the triad that @Lucky Phil introduced as Design/Engineering /Fabrication , and the extension of that thinking, suggested by @Speedfrog: "If you think of the motorcycle as a blend of this trio of design/engineering/fabrication, it’s fair to say that different people value different ratios of these elements for what represents their ideal motorcycle. " > As far as any particular motorcycle being seen as an object d'art , I submit the time I was saddling up at a coffee shop in the city and some young fellow re-parked his family's car and leapt out to get a close-up look at mySPORT, exuberantly exclaiming, "IS THAT ITALIAN?!? MAN!! THAT IS A WORK OF ART !!!! " No idea who the fellow was or how he might have been trained or educated, but he obviously had good taste! > Exhibit Two: Those various motorcycles that have been displayed in our "lounge rooms " or "dining rooms ." As well as those of us who wish we could if The Minister of Stately Affairs would stand for it . . . As for mySport, she must settle her artly-self on the dais in the footlights of the shop. Long may I devote myself to fabrications that consider her engineering and respect her design ~ ~ ~

Once something enters the world of having at it's core reason to exist a physical functionality, purpose or use it's not part of the "art" world in my view. A motorcycle or a car by definition are transportation devices first and foremost as is an aircraft. They can be beautifully designed, formed and crafted but in my mind they are not art. A Spitfire no matter how beautiful the design is, is never referred to as a piece of "art" nor was the Concord or any other aircraft ever produced that I can think of for that matter. I wonder why people are so quick to assign the tag of "art" to a particular motorcycle as I've seen many times but not to something like a Spitfire? Both machines designed to transport people to a location albeit by different means but a beautiful motorcycle somehow enters the realms of "art" for some and the beautiful aircraft does not. A mystery to me at least. The acid test is ask a non motorcyclist if the MV Agusta F41000 is "art" and they'll look at you like you are insane. BTW my MV along with the 1000SS Ducati lived in my lounge room and dining room for years. Phil

What people choose to do aesthetically or 'Artistically' to their bikes concerns me not a jot and I fully agree with your assessment that such things are subjective and if people want to do such things? Knock yerself out! That doesn't mean that I can't mock them as ugly and most importantly it doesn't mean that what they have done will be either 'Special' or indeed work in an engineering or mechanical sense. So many people make absurd and impossible claims about performance and functionality it just shits me to tears. I've tried to explain many times why the 8V 'Nuovo Hi-Cam' can't be made to make power and torque figures that can genuinely only be made by much more sophisticated engines but this is either ignored outright or some picture of a 'Dyno Chart' will be produced to 'Prove' the point! Sorry, but trying to use the laws of physics to argue against ignorance and stupidity is a fools errand. Dunno why I even bother apart from the fact I don't want the gullible being taken in by charlatans. With the old pushrod lump it's even more frustrating. Especially when stuck in a Tonti frame with a five speed gearbox and pre V11 final drive. You can, reliably, make mid eighties RWHP from an 1100. The factory erred on the side of conservatism and the donk makes about 76 in the V11. Yes you can get it to make more, but at a price. Now imagine what it's going to be like putting that power, or more, through a clutch, gearbox and driveline designed to handle not much more than 50? Its life span will in the words of some nineteenth century philosopher, be Brutish and Short! So what does that mean? Either these people have managed to change the laws of physics and the sciences of metallurgy, and engineering! Or? They are full of shit! I reiterate, if people like these things as 'Art'? Fine. Knock yerself out. To me they are obnoxious gobshitery! NOBODY HAS TO AGREE WITH ME!

Unfortunately, around here we have "bobbers". These really are too ugly to look at. They are not built, they are the opposite.

Not 'Covered' John but I've built a couple, and by 'Built' I mean built. They weren't just a 1400 motor stuffed into a 1200's cycleparts. The 1200 and 1400 motors are two very different animals. Apart from the radically different cooling systems for the heads the 1400 heads use much smaller inlet tracts. It's one of the reasons the 1400's make less power than the 1200's. My 1400's used big port, single spark heads and have the heads machined for oiling purposes. They both make phenomenal bottom end and midrange torque but not substantially more power. That is down to the side draft head design and camming and they are both outrageously thirsty! Mark had to go to higher flow injectors as the stock ones just couldn't pour enough fuel in at higher RPM. The 8V is absurdly greedy and wasteful, it's one of the reasons it was canned. If you made it meet €5 it would be a gutless pig of a thing! As it is, mapped and piped right it's a lovely thing to ride but *Efficient* and *Modern* are not really two words that should be used in any sentence that has Guzzi 8V in. There are some parts of it that are modern in design. The combustion chamber is very nice, but one swallow does not a summer make unfortunately. That's why they had to go to the 'Ugly as a hat full of farty arseholes' V100 motor for the next generation bikes.

I'll leave that here...

I reckon some of the modern V7s are quite pretty, but not sports bikes and very much too "sit up and beg". I even test rode a V7 850 a couple of months ago to make sure. Spent the whole ride wondering how hard it would be to fit clip-ons to it. Modern sports bikes: yes, undoubtably wonderful machines. If only they didn't all look like the 8th. or 9th. edition of a transformer movie after the ideas had all run out.

Yeah, yeah. The same stuff that everybody does. Most, if not all, available 'Off the shelf! A lightened flywheel? A 'High Torque' cam? So a mm ground off the base circle of the 'Lawnmower' cam or perhaps a B10 or P3 type grind? Twin plugging? Vital with such a shitty combustion chamber design. Even the facory did it at the end. The oil condensor system has to be improved over the system used on Low Head Tonti's or they puke their oil out and run their mains. None of this is exceptional and has been common practice and well known for forty or more years! And boring out a set of PHM's to 41mm? Wow! Colour me bored! As I said, I'm glad the people who build these things are happy but the Oooh-ing and Ahh-ing is laughable and makes me want to puke! But that's me. I'm not the arbiter of your or anyone else's taste. I am though entitled to my opinion and being an irascible old bastard I'm more than happy to state it!

It's a bastardised Tonti with some sort of squarefin 2V motor in it. So what? These things are like locusts. I used to love a 'Cafe' Tonti, but they have become, like this unit, 'Cookie Cutter' items bought from a catalog just the same as any 'Screamin' Eagle' Harley. OK, the aftermarket suppliers may be independent, unlike the 'Screamin' Eagle' catalog suppliers but it's the same thing. They may well be 'Independent Builds' but they are all terribly boring and formulaic. The naked frame triangle, or coy copy of a V7 Sport tool box. The battery under the gearbox. The clip ons and rearsets. The absence of any suggestion of practicality and funniest of all, these things often are based on old roundfins and they STILL wear shitty 30mm VHB carburettors! What do these idiots not get about the name they adopt 'Cafe'? OK, that sort of has some sort of oddball reference to a mad cult in the south of England sixty plus years ago. Perhaps if you stretch the point you could say that an engine and frame that didn't go into production between ten and fifteen years after the 'Cafe Racer' thing could be made to look relevant but basically it's a load of tiresome, irrelevant, wank! But then they don't do anything to increase the performance! So where in the name of holy F*ck is the 'Racer' part of the equation??? Look, I'm glad these people have built these things and they make them happy. At the end of the day though fawning over them is like wanking to AI porn. YOMV. (PS, I have a picture, not a good one, that I can't post on this site of a much younger me with my little green hot-rod. It looks like a T3 but it made 81 rear wheel BHP out of 891cc. It torched its big ends frequently because to make that I had to rev it to 10,000 indicated by the Veglia. It was stuffed full of twenty years experimentation and a lot of money. Then I bought an 1100 Griso which made a bit less power but did EVERYTHING better and didn't blow up regularly. @#!#$# 'Cafe Racers'!)

No sleep to loose. That is not a V11 LeMans/Sport motor/drivetrain. Let's say it's a V11 "EV" or "Cali" square fin with a 5speeder gearbox and not our reardrive. So, someone made a slumpy croozer-goozzee into a café ride. (A VERY nice one, I would say!) No Spine Frames were harmed in this . . .

Some 8% of the male population have "red-green shift color blindness." Legnano Green would not look to "green" to those folks at all. V11 Sport and LeMans variants are generally becoming worth more and more than us long-timers would think. Especially for those "unmolested" examples. As for me, I would want a little something extra for the molestation. That has been a ton of time and effort invested in intentional groping and fondling . . .

And on the anchor's plinth: ETERNAL VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY

Ha ha If I were a single man and didn't have to debate matters of finance with the minister..... I think I'd try a sportier tyre to see how they FEEL compared with sport touring tyres. I'm curious as my mate Dave runs sports tyres on his MV and we've ridden in some pretty ordinary conditions, and they've not given him any grief either. However the Angels have never given me any issues for the sort of riding I do and I get great mileage outa them.... Cheers Guzzler

Aren't we all habit's creatures? The way I look at it, I want to try as many as I can, to find out if I am able to distinguish what is tagged to have better performance. With the mileage I am putting out while doing the Texas Tour, I can justify poking around to find out what I think suits the V11. I shall hit 30k miles by year end.

Yeah, reckon I'll stick with my Angel GT11.... I just rode home from work earlier today, 70 kays 11 degrees TORRENTIAL rain and even with 13 thousand kays on them they were rock solid, stable and secure! They've still got quite a lot of life left in them and will replace with same or next gen Angels if available when I'm ready! Bloody good in the dry too ha ha Cheers

When you look at the peanuts difference between those tires' performance, there is no bad choice here. They did say though, the Michelin braking performance is affected because it is the only tire that triggers the ABS extremely early in the test. As we know the ABS helps in control and not in braking performance. Just out of curiosity, I looked at the prices and availability using Revzilla; The Metzeler Roadtec 01 are ALL out of stock. There are the cheapest. The Michelin Road 6 are the most expensive. Some of the GT versions of these tires were not available.