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Everything posted by Weegie
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Agreed @docc the bellypan doesn't have a great deal of clearance at the base either making a Vee Sump impossible. Add to that the reduced clearance perhaps restricting the ability of the finning to reject heat and the heads also being partially enclosed, won't help either The other Australia I mentioned is a series I bike and I wonder if it has a more generous belly pan then the series II Anyway apart from a larger oil cooler perhaps in the Winter I don't think there's much more I can do or check. Looking on the bright side though the bike is fine once on the open road, but city traffic is to be avoided at all costs. It is nice to look at though
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Hi Chuck Phil thinks the fairing could be at least partly to blame and I do need to get the bike out for a short run without the bellypan to see if it makes a difference As stated earlier, there is another Australia owner I know and his bike runs cool as well. That bike though has a deep sump (from the pictures though it doesn't look anything like as deep as Vee sump) but the bike is C kitted. Anyway the fairing is off and I'll check the tappets today and ensure the CO screw is turned up rich inside the ECU box. Plugs were dry after the run and looked pretty reasonable to me, generally grey, far from white as you'd see on bike running lean. Guess I won't get to the bottom of it unless I'm prepared to pull the whole engine to pieces and maybe not even then
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So finally our esteemed leader lifted our local down last Friday and the weather aligned, so on Monday I could go for a ride after not leaving the city in over 9 months, probably closer to year. The first thing, science experiment (101), was to determine how the HiCam would behave on the open road in clean air. Since putting in the Griso spring I also added a bit over a litre of oil to bring the level up closer to the underside of the Roper Plate, prior to this I'd been running at around 1/2 on the dipstick. Trawling through 40 pages of posts on the COG forum looking at oil threads specifically. I discovered the sumps should be filled up to the underside of the Roper Plate, around 10mm higher than the high point on the dipstick (COG quoted figures of 17mm above the high mark on the stick approx equal to the underside of the plate). Yet another lesson learned (thanks @Lucky Phil for posting about this earlier which initially drew my attenion to it). TBH I'm still a bit sceptical about the broadsump design, my Sporti has the same setup and it tends to run on the hot side as well (not in the same league as the HiCam though). Anyway, I found with the addtional oil it's a bit slower to heat in traffic, but still too fast for comfort. Completed over 150miles, ambients in the low 20C. Once running in clear air my pressure varied, typically around 55psi 4k rpm in the 40-50mph region and 60-65psi when running 60mph and above again around 4k rpm. After running in clear air if I did get held up the pressure would drop into the mid 50s or thereabouts, but once back into clear air recover pretty quickly to 55-60 and if extended running I'd get back up close to 65psi. I'm relieved that on the open road the bike runs well and the pressures are high enough for it not to be a concern. Had a lot of fun getting it out into the bargain what a hoot that bike is to ride. Idling after a clear air run pressure around 15psi at 1200 rpm. I never got the chance to get data on the temps, but I'd hazard a guess (from experience with pressure and temps) in clear air oil temp is somewhere between 105-115C, high but not excessive enough to cause damage to the engine. Once back into the city in a 30mph zone for 7 miles (or a bit more) with quite a few traffic lights, but no horrendous snarl ups, the bike was back to its old evil ways and about 2 miles from home was stalling at idle, the heat coming from the engine was obvious. Literally yards from the house the low pressure light came on at idle and revving a little showed the system was struggling to maintain pressure around 20psi as I recall at a little over 2k rpm. Checking the sump temp when I got it in showed 130 C on the gauge. Going to check tappet clearances and open them up to 0.15 and 0.20 as recommended by Karsten per Lucky Phil's post (page #1) and recheck oil level. I still can't see oil at the base of the Roper Plate, pretty sure it can't be far off though. I just cannot understand why it runs so hot, I'd heard that these engines have a reputation for it, but searching the COG and on here, all the evidence points to the opposite being true. Over the Winter I'll be looking at a larger cooler and changing the 15/50 in her at present to a 10/60. The 10/60 will probably do very little but if it lowers the starting pressure and raises the running pressures even a little its all going in the right direction. Hopefully I'll get it out again this summer to confirm the data
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Speaking personally I've done a lot of stupid of shit in my time, I've just been lucky, you weren't, besides I don't know the full circumstances of your mishap. I'm just sorry that its happened to you and glad you're Ok. From that picture it looks like the lever(s), indicator(s), mirror(s) and possibly minor damage to the Magni fairing (I'm not sure) are the only casualties. Insurance companies and claim assesors can be a nightmare to deal with. Less known older bikes can easily get written off as their value is lower and parts scarcer, add in the assesors can't be bothered to do the research, declaring a "Write Off" is the easy way out. The assesors will probably add up the Guzzi parts prices look at the book price of a cooking V11 and their time to transport and sort it, then do the arithmetic. As docc states, point out recent market prices, I'll wager book price doesn't reflect anything like current market value and the bike looks imaculate which should also figure in the valuation If insurance insists on a "Write Off" buy it back as a last resort. As others have said first try to get it reassesed and repaired first so as your title doesn't get affected. I don't know how it works in the US but if you hit a wall with the insurers, I'd get a lawyer involved, that usually "focuses" them somewhat, here in the UK anyway. Nice bike, MotoSpezial Vee Sump (with site glass) and Magni fairing make it something well worth saving IMHO and it seems crazy that such superficial damage would result in a "Write Off" Guessing you junked the cooler, and routed the breather return through the sump plug, I've thought now and again about doing the same to a HiCam engine
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My understanding is Yes none were imported to the US AFAIK the Dr John was an attempt to increase sales of the "cooking" Daytona. Not long after the Daytona was launched Guzzi announced tuning kits for the engine, A B & C The Dr John was a black B kitted Daytona, I don't know of any other changes They were probably not imported to the US due to emissions and noise requirements. The Daytonas for the US and Switzerland had slightly different specs I think it was mainly the cams, although there were probably ECU changes as well. Again this is just my understanding and not fact, but when the RS came out, a full C kitted Daytona the US didn't get the full blooded C kit either. Somebody with more knowledge might come along and confirm or correct that
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No Pete I haven't seen anything which reminds me I need to talk to the painter about these Magni decals as he never got back to me I'll drop you a PM Both Charlotte and me have had both jabs, neither of us had any after effects whatsoever John
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On my Sfida (a Magni using sporti running gear including the engine & gbx) which is a 99 I believe It's on the Crankcase LHS (as you sit on the bike) front, low down just above all the finning near the sump, where the timing case bolts on. Being a 99 and you're asking about a 97, this may have changed but my numbers are in a dot matrix format
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Just to add the Dr John shown in the picture I put up is the same bike that dvdmcm owned for a while
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@PeterS You did see this thread? @Tony21 may be able to help https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22640-the-daytona-dr-john-search-for-missing-bikes/&tab=comments#comment-260657
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I'm not 100% on this, but I believe these foam pods were the OEM fitment.
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Did that work?
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Like this? They were 'B' kitted were they not? I liked the black colour scheme. A friend had one, sold it and years later bought it back. He then sold it within a couple of weeks when he was made an offer too good to refuse. AFAIK the bike went to somebody in the London area who already had one and wanted another
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Thanks for the link @Mikko That's quite a build, way beyond my skill level or cash Really interesting to see what you're doing and how it progresses The Marchal Lamp on the first page, they are just so cool always been a favourate of mine. Rest of the work looks stunning, be interesting to see how it all progresses
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Thankyou @Mikko, I have 4 bikes but the Ducati 1098 is going, it had more than enough power to scare the Bayjasus outta me. That'll leave me with the 3 Magnis at my age my riding days are numbered (especially with the Scotish weather) so the 3 of them are more than enough, I'd have loved to get my hands on a Giaponne, but would rather stay married. Lashings of BHP would only get me into trouble that I don't have the skill to extracate myself from. The Australia when I first purchased it a good few years back below. I'd hate to sell any of the Magnis it'll break my heart when the time comes. Its an Australia 98, they were built in 2 batches, I think the first were built in 92, using the original Daytona/HiCam engine with a sort of Hybrid frame that's a cross between the Beam and Tonti type frames. The second series used the Daytona RS engines/HiCam 'C' Kitted (almost identical to the Centauro but with slightly different cams) and a beam frame very similar to the one Guzzi used. There are some other smaller differences between the 2 batches and at first glance they're hard to tell apart (engine colour and forks are the giveaway). I believe there were around 130 built in total, Magni's plan was to build a lot more but Guzzi couldn't supply him with the engines/gbxs and running gear. Good luck with modding the HiCam I'd certainly be interested if you start a thread on what your doing and how it progresses. As with all of my bikes I'm that useless I just count myself lucky if I can get them to run in factory spec. I'll settle for the HiCam not overheating, making good oil pressure and remaining oil tight. John
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That's an interesting way to go @Mikko I'd never really considered, I'm also in the UK so even if I wanted to it's not really an option, although there are quite a few places in the UK who do offer hi tech coatings as part of their range of services. As you'll have seen a lot of owners have HiCams that run cool, I think I've just got the red headed stepchild. Where did you get the idea of larger crank bearings, I've never heard of that, or any mods to the crank/rods that I know of. Some of these engines have been extensively modified, @Paul Minnaert and @Lucky Phil have far more knowledge and skill than me when modding these engines, perhaps they'll chime in Personally I'm happy enough with the amount of power these blocks generate. I don't have any plans to start trying to tune them, I've enough trouble as it is. There are mods that can be done to reduce the oil consumption, eliminating the second bearing on the service shaft and converting it to a single bearing stub shaft is one I've heard of, I do believe there are others. A good place to start if going down that route would be to look at the MGS-01 engine parts book and any other information on it. Modifications were made on that engine to alleviate some of the shotcomings of the original Daytona/Centauro designs. Good Luck with it, so is your engine apart at the moment then? John
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I don't own a Centauro but have a Daytona HiCam engine which is giving me a lot of grief (but that's another story). Just a couple of thing's Mikko, if you know already forgive me. The HiCam engine has both belts and gears, gears to drive the oil pump and service shaft and pulleys to drive the cams from the service shaft. I see somebody went the gear to chain route, but as you have a Caruso pump & gears, you are obviously not considering it..................wise move! AFAIK the V11 chain and pump conversion will reduce your oil output from the pump at least 20% (probably more) the V11 pump is smaller and the chain drive turns the pump slower. The HiCam engine has the largest oil pump of all the bikes of that era. This is supposition but I think the reason for the crazy sleeved oil pump is because Guzzi needed to make the pump large and then didn't have room for a roller bearing on the pump, so they just sleeved it instead. I wonder what oil pressures these bikes have after the conversion. I'd put at least a temporary oil pressure gauge onto it to see what pressures you get when the engine is up to temp, the relief valve is known to leak, an experiment I'm still fooling around with, I reckon if it's in line with the limited anectodal evidence I have it will be in the 40s. That said, I've never heard of a Centauro running its bearings except if there's been oil starvation from the pump breaking or the oil hoses coming off the oil cooler. I assume you've found Phil's excellent build thread https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20664-v11-daytona-project/ My own woes are documented here if you fancy an amusing read at my expense https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21884-hicam-oil-pressure-gross-stupidity-and-why-you-should-always-listen-to-chuck/ Just some info, make of it what you will John
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So here is some rough oil pressure data I currently have running the bike on Motul 300V 15W 50 with the Griso spring in the PRV on the HiCam 20C 1200RPM 83psi 30C 1200RPM 81psi 40C 1200RPM 80psi 50C 1200RPM 79psi 58C 1200RPM 76psi 64C 1200RPM 63psi 64C 3000RPM 80psi 82C 1200RPM 40psi 82C 3000RPM 74psi 82C 4000RPM 76psi 90C 1200RPM 32psi 90C 3000RPM 72psi I reckon that bike will normally run at least a 90C oil temp under normal running and in order to get the pressure down a little at the colder oil temps I was wondering if it would be worth changing grades to a 5W 50, Motul have a fully synthetic car engine oil in this grade and as there are no wet clutch issues with the Guzzi, I wouldn't have thought that there would be any harm running an oil specified for car use. I'm pretty relaxed about any pressure below 80psi and the differences between the idle and 3kRPM pressures seem to be less when the oil is thicker (generally after 3k there isn't much change in pressure no matter the RPM). The problem being I daren't start it and ride it as I dread to think of the pressures I'd see below 65C when the RPM rises. The pressure pretty much plateaus at 2k more RPM just tends to raise the pressure perhaps around 4-5psi I wouldn't do this right away as I need to get the bike out for a decent run to get an idea of where the oil temperature stabilizes and that would determine if I change to a 5W-50/10W-60 or not and/or adjust the PRV by removing the 1.5mm shim, which I think would drop the pressure around 15psi. I'd be a bit loathed to do that though as at the higher temps the pressure is pretty well where I'd like it to be Just sorta throwing this out there for some experienced heads to comment and see what some of you thought. John
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ANSWERED Sexy pictures!
Weegie replied to pete roper's topic in Special place for banter and conversation
Don't trust her Pete, she's 2 timing you, I got the same offer If I had the energy anymore I'd take her up on the offer -
Forgive me docc "Two Nations divided by a common language"
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That's what I was thinking too, I don't know the Tonti frame's ins and out that well. With the Sfida which is Magni's take on the Tonti, there is a spacer and failing to install it or putting it in the wrong place does exactly that
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Are we talking 1100 Sport injection? When you undo the clips on the lines there will be some spillage, but anytime I've had the tank off on mine (and that's a lot) neither inlet (petcock side) to the system nor return (fuel regulator) needed anything special. Simply undo the jubilee clamps or whatever else is holding the lines onto the petcock and the regulator then pull them off Be prepared for fuel to run out the lines but it doesn't spray everywhere if that's what concerns you at least mine never has.
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I think I've now about reached the end of this but wanted to post some more prelim data for now and some more test results tomorrow. Who'd have thought I could spin out a 4 page thread on a bloody spring. So here's what I've found as a rough guide regarding shimming the OEM valve with the Griso spring. Below are 2 results, the first colum is static test data. In other words putting the valve in an oil tester or pumping up the valve on oil, if you use air the results will be different, probably lower from what I saw. I gave up on using air as a medium the leakage was so bad I couldn't obtain repeatable results. The oil I was using was a 15-50 full synth room temp 18-20C, cold oil for both the static test and the crank test. When static testing the valve just starts to crack then around 5psi later is well off the seat so it's difficult to pin down an exact lift value, but easy to get a ballpark within 5psi for when the valve lifts All results psi, shim numbers in mm. On all of these there was no crush washer or shim on the spring retaining nut on the PRV top, some have these installed others not. IMHO they serve no purpose, however, if they are in place they will subtract from the shim value as the nut will not penetrate as deeply into the valve body and compress the spring Shim Static Oil Pressure None 80-85 68 1.5 105-110 82 3 125-130 95 I think the results were pretty well linear in behaviour, so as a "Rule of thumb" for every 1mm of shim compressing the spring you'll see 14psi increase in static lift pressure and approximately 9psi on the oil pressure. Can only base this on my own anectodal evidence, but knowing that no shim gave me 68 and 3mm shim gave me 95, a 27psi difference, 1mm equated to 9psi. 1.5mm should give me pressure in the bike of somewhere around 80-83psi. When I crank tested it was somewhere between 80-82psi. If you have a facilities to static test by all means do it, you may get different numbers to me, but be aware that the static lift values are higher than what you'll see inside the engine. The figures here are just what I saw and posted up as a rough guide and starter for anybody mad enough to try it
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Thanks Tim Looking at some of the comparisons, I think the valve in the bike as of now isn't as good as when I conducted the first test. Whether this is because this valve isn't preloaded (allowing some, or more, float), because the PRV clearances aren't as good or something to do with the lower setpoint I don't know. Hopefully I shall find out when I change the oil and replace the current valve with the TLM valve and Griso spring (still awaiting the new spring to arrive) which I will preload to 2 or 3mm. The idea being to mess with the valve internals as little as possible Looking at the first test and the most recent comparitive results are below, obviously nothing is exact here so a little latitude in reading the results is required. The main points I'm interested in are the 80C readings at elevated RPM. The second test valve has a lower setpoint and given that is the case (around 66-68psi) the idle results are all pretty much in line and way more than required. However the results at 80C 3&4k rpm are pretty stark around a 15psi difference. From what I see pretty much after 2.5-3k rpm oil pressure is constant with revs Same oil and same cooler (a 13 row, but smaller area, Setrab, with -8 hose and full flow fittings) so the only variable is the PRV. Motul 300V 15/50, full synth lube. 20C/idle 80psi 68psi 40C/idle 70psi 66psi 60C/idle 60psi 62psi 80C/idle 38psi 40psi 80C/3k 75psi 60psi 80C/4k 75psi 62psi Even as is it stands though its a big improvement over say the 43psi reported on @Lucky Phil thread page 5 by @Kevin_T . If I could get that 13-15psi back I'll be a very happy bunny, but for now at least I can rev it a little without fear of damage