Weegie

Hi Kevin We did chat briefly on PM if remember correctly. It all seems so bloody obvious doesn't it when it's laid out and if I had listened to @Chuck I could have saved myself 2 years (or more) worth of fruitless grief & pain. He initially pointed me on the right road on WG a long time back. Like you I thought the problem was pump or leak releated. I started down this road for the reasons Phil pointed out on the post above yours, convinced the temp and pressure problems were related (the jury is still out on that). As far as low pressure it just didn't click that the relief was the culprit, due in part to my experience with the 2v/v engines (Big Mistake!!). It all really started to make sense when @Lucky Phil started to intervene and the majority of findings were down to his engineering ability. Starting with his engine build thread, then his experiment with the over enthusiastic relief spring and then another buddy with a HiCam installing a pressure gauge. The results obtained all pointed to 50psi being a standard cold oil pressure. Following conversations on PM with Phil he patiently pointed out what was happening one step at a time. I'm really grateful to him and so should anybody else with a HiCam who wants to sort it. Joe Caruso also provided me with some eye opening data on the pumps and a lot of assitance (you'll not meet a nicer guy than Joe) So to get to your questions, so far I'm testing on a 15W 50 full synth, Motul 300V. There isn't so much changing in the systems as far as I'm aware. The bike has the Caruso pump and gears, but has had these since the problem started. The only other change is I've taken off the OEM cooler and installed a Setrab 13 row, it's actually smaller than the original but has full flow fittings and Dash 8 hose to and from the tapping points on the broad sump. Tests there showed the same cold oil pressure before and after install. I'll need to get the bike out on a shakedown run to tell if the cooler has made any difference. From looking at the OEM install though I "think" these banjo fittings must be introducing significant pressure losses across the cooler, which won't help the amount of oil going through it. The rest of the system is fixed pressure drops being controlled by the available areas and pathways the oil has to traverse. Once the relief is removed and tested it's obvious where the problem is, testing it on air (or preferably oil) will highllight it. The Griso spring was Phil's suggestion, all I've really did is to provide a test bed and do some donkey work. Which was Ok as the bike was partially disasembled anyway. I'm at a bit of a loss on your suggestion to run a lighter weight oil, so forgive my ignorance. Generally these engines run on the hot side and even at 80C on a 50 weight at 4k RPM the pressure with the relief closed is 72-74 psi. I expect that during normal running the actual oil temperature would be 80 at best and perhaps 90 or in excess of 100. I'm in agreement with Phil that if I change oil grade it would be better to move to a higher weight to maintain viscosity at the higher temperatures. John

Phil is the rating not 4 bar? The actual pressures I converted from the manual which aren't measured in bars but kg/cm^2 for the 2 valve sporti was 3.8-4.2 (56-60psi) and 5kg/cm^2 for the HiCam (70psi) I'm guessing here but I'd have tought that the V11 would be the same are the Sporti 56-60psi The problem is only related to the HiCam, with the valve set for 56-60psi the valve will choke cold oil idle and typically a 2 v/v engine will idle somewhere between 60 and 65psi The HiCam has a large oil flow to the heads so the valve has to lift less to drop the oil pressure more, so despite the higher setpoint (which I'm unsure was ever set at the factory) the HiCam at cold idle will register 50psi. The 2 v/v engines are much more tolerant to relief valve leakage and these valves seem to work just fine. I don't know the effects of upping the pressure on a 2 v/v engine would be, but I don't think there would be any benefit. Given they run just peachy on the 60psi setpoint, it would seem a bit crazy to start messing with them

Yeah I did say something about that in the photograph notes Phil but probably not clearly enough, so thanks for pointing it out again to ensure anybody looking at this doesn't get confused. John

Not a problem Pete at the moment I've got the small Setrab on it with Dash 8 lines and full flow fittings. On the video you can here me say I got a leak, need to run it again to see if I've managed to sort it. With the larger diameter lines and full flow fittings, the lines immediately started to warm up, something that isn't nearly as noticable with the standard set up. I think that could be due to the OEM banjo fittings introducing pressure losses and restricitng flow to the OEM cooler Let me know postage costs wouldn't want you out of pocket There was also a leak coming from somewhere on the engine but I'd be dammed if I could find it. It was getting onto the spine frame and running down it then dripping at the Gbx end cover. I think it was coming from the dizzie blanking plate which on the HiCam carries the two head return lines to the crankcase (or are they breathers?). When I took the airbox off to look, I was expecting oil everywhere but virtually nothing..................go figure Going to remove the airbox and run it again to see if I can pinpoint it. I'm as bad I need to contact my painter about these Magni decals, I've not heard a thing from him.

One more thing I put rather clumsily was in the tale of the 28psi idle pressure and the statement "50psi and even that's is really too low" when referring to cold idle presssure. 10psi at idle is more than enough, what I was trying to get across was on cold oil idle the relief valve is partially lifting/leaking and the setpoint that should be on the valve is 70psi, however they all lift early and idle at 50psi. Revving the engine will raise the pressure, choking the valve. I reckon It rises to a bit over 60psi at 3k rpm but I don't know if the pressure rises any higher than that. From what I've seen from the short Griso spring test I suspect not. As I also have a Sporti I swapped the internals of the sport pipework into the HiCam to test, when I could not understand why I was getting low pressure at idle. The results I saw when cranking were identical, I actually started to question my sanity and repeated the whole thing twice as I could not believe the results were identical. Both valves showed the same system pressure of 50psi. The Sport engine's relief valve pressure is around 1 bar lower, Guzzi quote 56-60psi for the 2 valve engines and 70psi (no tolerance) for the 4 valve. Then I checked the parts book, well, well, well identical components including the spring in both valves....................Go figure. I believe the intention was to shim the spring to obtain a higher relief pressure for the HiCams. They either weren't shimmed in the factory or the spring rate so soft as to make no difference to the observed oil pressure. The lower pressure seen when the valve lifts on the HiCam is due to the large oil flow to the heads, dropping the pressure dramatically. When that same relief valve is used in the 2 V/V bike it will idle circa 65psi cold oil. I can only surmise that due to the rushed design and pressure (bad pun) to get a bike out the door with more horses, very little thought went into the design which, as a result meant the system just didn't work the way Guzzi envisaged.

Damm I meant to say on the video if anybody is contemplating this as a mod, what I didn't realize at the time was that there was 3 mm spacer jammed into the top of the valve as a shim. Like the dope I am I completely missed it and only found out about it later when messing with the valve again So the valve had the 1mm crush washer installed on the outside at the top of the valve which reduces the spring tension and a 3mm shim on the inside of the top bolt which increases the spring tension. If installing without the crush washer (which IMHO isn't necessary) I'd start with a 2mm washer/spacer. As Phil pointed out, and I found out, the only sure fire way to reliably determine the lift pressure is to use an oil tester. I've been using air and found that the valve lifted approximately 10psi earlier than when actually tested on the cranking/running engine. Picture of the valve to make things a little clearer

Perhaps you're correct Phil, it's a personal thing and specific to these engines. It's a backup to the rather unreliable pressure switch, known to fail. I rarely monitor the gauge on a ride, its just something I glance at from time to time, or if something else occurs (like the pressure light illuminating) to provide me with a little more information. Maybe my poor tech skills, but over the years I've found the gauge useful from time to time. A compromise would be to install a temporary hook up to monitor pressure for the shakedown runs and then remove it. Vive La Difference John

That was probably me Kremmen, I've got a HiCam engine that was/is overheating. Anyway I posted about the travails on this thread https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21884-hicam-oil-pressure-gross-stupidity-and-why-you-should-always-listen-to-chuck/ It may have been there as I made that statement on that thread Due to all the research I did, while basically going down the wrong road, I was frequently in correspondence with Joe Caruso and that was where the information came from If the gear pump output is linear with RPM and gear rotor length similarily linear to pump output, then the lower flowrate is significant, although I've never heard of anybody who did this mod report problems...............however very few owners install pressure gauges and I have no idea what sort of mileage or how many of these mods have been completed. The V11/MGS conversion will have the oil pump running close to 10% slower and the V11 pump rotor length is almost 25% less than the OEM Daytona/Centauro parts. Apart from the Caruso gear and pump mod My advice is install an oil pressure gauge (and some method monitoring oil temp doesn't hurt either). Make sure that the pressure relief valve is opening at the correct pressure (they nearly all don't) and that its sealing when shut. As far as lubrication these engines need a stupid amount of oil to the heads and the 2 big weak points are the oil pump and the relief valve. On the relief valve and low pressure a friend is putting a HiCam back into service and I urged him to put a gauge on. What he found was the relief leaking badly and his pressure (cold oil) was 28psi idle normally they will show 50psi and even that's is reallly too low. With no gauge he'd have probably have been out running around thinking all was great as the warning light wouldn't trigger (although it may have once the engine was up to temp). I do wonder how long though the engine would have lasted like that and the amount it could have potentially cost him. Yet I still get owners telling me that a gauge is waste of time and doesn't tell you s**t.........................each to their own I suppose

Here is what happens when the engine was run with the Griso spring in

I'd agree to an extent but wouldn't quite go so far as to say the 1100 is horrible, I'd agree it's not nearly as nice a design as the Sfida 1000. I'm at odds with how Magni's take is horrid, compared with Guzzi's on the Sporti. The Guzzi version for the UK (and I think the US), where they junked the trapazoid headlight and installed the rectangular unit was even worse. I can remember my disappointment when I purchased an early Daytona and it had that setup compared to the trapazoid in the brochures I think the Sfida 1100i looks great with the fairing added when Magni produced the Giappone, which is essentially a Sfida 1100 with USD forks, the Magni V11 exhuasts and a full fairing. I'm thinking about the fairing as a possible winter project for mine I can understand the beauty of the MGS but its never really sang out that loud to me and the input from, was it Ghezzi or Brian? is obvious. As you can see I love the Magnis and prefer the Australia design over the MGS. Perhaps it's an age thing, I'm getting on a bit and prefer curves to angular, but that's simply taste (and mine may well be up my ass) Vive la difference po18guy You do know about the Guareschci don't you? Not identical but if you were looking to have something close to an MGS for the road it's not so bad, I Iike it a lot Oh just one more to clarify Magni actually produced HiCam and an 1100 sport engines stuffed into his version of the Tonti chassis in very limited numbers. EDIT As well as a few Sfidas being stuffed into Magni's version of the Tonti I also meant to add that the Australia 92 (they were built in 2 batches in 92 and 98, as I recall) had the same tontiesque frame too. It was only the later Australia 98s that were beam/spine framed. I can't find any pictures right now but there were a few Anyway I'll get ma coat, nuff said by me

Well we are all different I guess, but nice though it is and has the advantage of modern forks etc: I much prefer the looks of the Magni

docc, MartyNZ & Kiwi Roy (our resident electrical consultant) have nailed it I'm not sure about your running light statement and fail to understand it. On my computer the link to the wiring diagram is also broken. It's due to the rather Heath Robinson (if you know who he is) circuit that Guzzi used linking the circuit for the warning bulb, it's quite clever and works if you don't change anything but if you modify it, then strange things happen Everything will work with the warning light removed as you state. If you want to use LED indicators then you'll need to replace the flasher relay with an electronic unit or resistors. Resistors are horrible and a bit hit and miss, besides the flasher unit will probably cost less than 4 resistors (which may or may not work, at least on first try) If you want the warning light to work as well as the electronic relay you'll need to modify the warning light circuit too. You can try the back to back LED trick, I've never tried that but it should work for the warning light. What I did when replacing the incandescent bulbs with LEDs on both a Sport and a Daytona (the wiring circuits are the same for the V11) was to use Roy's 3rd sketch. You disconnect both wires going to the warning light. Then solder in Diodes the sliver ring on the Diode should point toward the warning light (or away from the exisitng wire). Join then the 2 diodes, or the wires leading from the diodes, together and connect them to the non blocking side of the LED warning light (easy to test that, try one side if it doesn't work try the other) Make a direct connection to earth on the other side of the LED. Roy's 3rd diagram shows it in diagram form which is easier to understand. This just came up on a similar post https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22088-turn-indicators-aspire-to-4way-flashers/ My LED dash on the Daytona (I should have cleaned it up a little before making the video)

Pretty sure the additional ground would help and the earthing is a known weak point. As Phil said the reg/rec's job is to get rid of the additional energy. It will get hot, but that sounds to me like there is a problem and I'd be checking all my connections. At idle RPM the Alternator isn't going to be putting out a great deal of power, so I wouldn't have thought it should get so hot you can barely touch it. That said that's an ASS-umption I have not actually tested what sort of temps my reg/rec reaches when sitting at idle. Where's Roy when you need him?

They look like bloody great resistors to me. Probably there to try to balance the load to (try) to keep the flash rate correct (as you already stated) and balance the circuit loads to keep the overall resistance (and thereby current flow) the same I dislike resistors they waste power and just get hot. However, that said, if they're already there and haven't melted anything, then I'd just keep them in. From the picture it looks reasonably neat so if it aint broke don't fix it. I do apologize I need to read the first post more thoroughly in future I was under the (mistaken) impression you were wanting to ditch the resistors. Providing the new LEDs don't consume vastly more power, and I doubt they would, then it should all work just fine. Should you want to junk them later then diodes are the way to go, tiny in comparison, no heat and more efficient. Wiring them into the turn signal warn light though is a faff (well it was on the Sporti and Daytona), so why give yourself the trouble

Think we are more or less saying the same thing Marty. From Carl Allison's V11 wiring diagram it looks like the same setup as the Sportis and Daytona/Centauros. With the increased resistance of the LED indicator the Voltage will be held higher on the positive side of the selected indicator ciricuit. The voltage finds it more difficult to get to earth as the resistance has increased with the LEDs. The earth path for the whole circuit might then be (at least in part) through the turn warning bulb which is via the indicator circuit in the opposite side. The opposite side from selected will then light dimly as enough current is flowing to partly light the bulbs or LEDs (it's all bit hit and miss as is the original circuit, start to change things and it can all go to pot). The only thing I disagree on is installing a Diode either side of the warning bulb without doing anything else. Perhaps I'm missing something but how then does the warning bulb earth? This is what I did when putting in an LED warning light and I'm pretty sure would work for the OPs situation as well. Yes fit a diode on each of the lines going to the warning light, (the silver band will point towards the warning bulb connectror) then gang the LH & RH wires together after their respective diodes and connect them to one side of the warning light. On the other side install a direct connection to earth (or chassis if you're using the president's english) Wait until Kiwi Roy wakes up to confirm/rubbish my suggestion, then we'll all be sure and you'll have the opinion of the best electrical guy on the forum

I'll need to look at the circuit later but are you sure their resistors? They might be diodes, have they a silver stripe on one side alternatively resistors on their own might be enough to limit the current Couple of things First the dimm flashing on the opposite side sounds like either a poor earth on the side that's flashing so what's happening is the circuit is finding a way to earth through the other side. or Their might be something wierd going on in the wiring circuit. Anything done to the warning bulb on the dash? On the 1100 Sports and Daytonas Centauros Guzzi wired the turn signal warn bulb so that when one side was flashing the warning bulb earthed through the other side, this worked fine with a bulb but as an LED only worked in one direction would not work with an LED. The other side would light as well. I'm foggy on the exact reasoning as it's a while since I looked at it.

I'm no expert but what Phil stated is how I understand it too, the fire triangle, with the 3 elements coming together. I'm sceptical about "the not enough Oxygen/air in the tank to take place" hypothesis, AFAIK tanks are vented therefore anything above the fuel level could be an explosive mixture. Depends on the surface area, temperature and probably other variables, that would determine fuel evaporation rate. If that stays below a threshold then it's fine. There either there isn't enough air (when the tank is full) or there isn't enough vapour when the tank is nearer empty The risk cold also be mitigated in the tank design by always having the pump suction above the electrical connections but I don't know and from that picture it doesn't look like it. If the connections get exposed then there would be a risk. That can be ellimated through wiring and connectors designed specifically for hazardous environments. If I ever found myself having to repair wiring where it entered the tank I'd be making sure I used suitable connectors and wiring. I've heard of plenty tanks expoding when being worked on without being sufficiently purged usually welding in the past, but never a tank exploding or bursting into flames due to bad electrics in the tank.

Just curious as I may go down this route, I know Phil is also considering it and heard that Paul Daytona had recommended it (but can't remember where) Wondered if anybody had taken the plunge. I believe later bikes also went to a 10/60 recommendation

Humm haven't been here in a while, echo Phil's post and agree If it's a 5 speeder I don't know they type of box installed to that particular model. The Sportis and HiCams had 5 speeders with the 3 dog clutch as opposed to the older 5 dog and they are pretty harsh on their internals. I thought all the V11s were 6 speeders shows what I know If it's strraight cut then it would probably whine in all gears, but 5th is a known weak link in the 3 dog 5 speed boxes (if it is such a thing) and is usually first to go. The first signs are it whines louder than the other gears. The usual remedy is to put in a helical gear from a bike that's being parted out. My guess is though by the time the V11s were being made all the boxes would have been helical. If it's a 5 speeder then stripping the box is a lot simpler than many imagine, many moons back I did a write up when stripping down an LM 1000 box if you've never been there or a little apprehensive of taking it apart http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzitech.dk/gb_en_complex-technical_gearbox-rebuilding-pictures.htm Good God was it nearlly 10 years since I wrote that Jeez!!

I did the same a you Cabernet on a Sporti based Magni, with the Magni the dash is difficult to read due to the Magni fairing. So I got a Harley dash and mounted Speedhuts. I had a spare Motogadget sensor lying around so got a mount made and installed the sensor. I then removed the speedo drive internals at the gearbox (which is of course different to the V11 but probably uses the same old speedo output and drive). Remember that second thrust washer which easily falls into the box and can do untold nastiness. I then just blanked it off with a plug like this https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M16x1-5-BLACK-METRIC-Hex-Allen-Key-BLANKING-PLUG-BUNG-BLOCKER-Male-Oil-Adapter/272164826776?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Seems to work well, I did grind all the lettering off the disc bolts too.

Thank you docc Yeah, plugs out so its spinning close to idle speed. If it's anything like the old spring, the crank and idle pressure will be identical. I don't think many are that interested in the HiCam but I thought this thread might be worthwhile. The agony I've been through trying to understand this engine and the MGS (no I don't own one) changes etc have taken forever and were hard won (and I'm only in the twilight knowledge wise). I'm not that bright but luckily I lucked in when 1) Found Lucky Phil's HiCam thread 2) I'm taking advice from Phil on and off about where to go to next, thank goodness for another "superfan" of these lumps and brimming with experience and know how to boot I'm pretty sure that the pulsing you can see is the spring lifting, so it controls around 82psi but I worry about what will happen when the valve chokes, relatively few revs required for that to happen on cold oil. As I mentioned in the original post, which is a bit long, so a lot may just skim through it and not take it all in. But for anybody thinking about which way to go to eliminate the "Grenade with the pin out" pump there is a lot to chew on, bad news as it is for the cheapskates of this world. A lot think that the MGS-01/V11 chain config must be the "Dog's Doo Dahhs" because the MGS-01 is the pinnacle of these engines. It is but the thing is Guzzi made significant changes to the head design and the MGS heads don't drink oil like a Scotsman finding a pub with free beer in the desert. The pressure on these engines is governed by the relief valve (Duhh) but the kicker is that the valve has only just gotta crack a little and the pressure starts to drop through the floor. Combine that with the heads insatiable thirst for oil and signifcant cooling issues (these engines run toasty hot, well mine does) and you can be balancing on the head of a pin. I've still got a few rabbits in the hat yet, including a new oil cooler, a second oil cooler to be mounted in series to the first and finally going to a 10/60 synth, not to mention perhaps trying to source a halfway house spring. My worrry about the high cold pressure is the rear mains seal, it's not the end of the world to replace but its not a job I'd lke to be doing every time I took her out for a run. John

So ading to an old thread as it's in the same vein, Phil suggested using the Griso relief valve spring instead of the OEM item for the HiCams may up the pressure stopping the relief lifting early so I got me one of them Its obvious the Griso spring is shorter and heavier gauge. Checking the lift with a bicycle foot pump had the OEM lifting at 50 the Griso lifting at 70 psi, hopeful. Installed the Griso springed valve into the bike filled with oil and tried a crank test, plugs out and grounded. A little high for my liking, not sure where to go from here, perhaps a short idle check and see what happens to the pressure when the oil gets toasty. If it's too high as I suspect the next approach would be to measure and send the data (or just the springs) to a spring supplier and request either a custom made or off the shelf spring that approximates to a halfway house giving a pressure around 65-70psi which I reckon would be ideal https://youtu.be/x6gzMWLS740 Still don't know how to insert a YouTube video on here John

You guys must be waaaaay to law abiding, something like that in the UK would either get stolen or spray painted over in a matter of hours There's a very good reason all the cameras are mounted on posts or are difficult to get at, even then it still doesn't stop some of them getting vandilised from time to time. Average speed cameras are probably the way most places will go where practical, unfortunately very effective unless the monitered detection length is known and if they have a few up it becomes just about impossible. Situation will only get worse as the prices of cameras comes down

Ok @Lucky Phil that's handy to know, may try that or at least make sure my stock clearances are on the loose rather than the tigher side. I'd have thought that you'd want to transfer heat to the head from the valve as much as possible, the head surely is running a LOT cooler and the mass of the head will result in a higher thermal inertia, not to mention the oil in it and the airflow over it. Mind if it's hot in the first place the exhaust valves are going to have an even more difficult time................Sodium core valves anybody? Phil's bound to know all about them Your cams are Centauro and mine are RS, slightly different but I don't know if it's significant. Of course Dynotech could just be wanting sell cams From what I can gather from the description Pete it appears that Guzzi must have had issues with the exhaust valves over the years, to go to the trouble of a dedicated pump Looked at the MGS-01 and V11 parts out of interest. They both have similar looking oil coolers but different part numbers, but that's all I got. The MGS also has what I think was a transducer (perhaps going to warning light?) across the cooler but later replaced with a relief if I've got it correct. It also sports lines directly to the heads on the cooler outlet. That's not presesnt on any of the other HiCams........................mmmmmm, wonder if that was a first attempt to feed colder oil directly to the heads. After some messing around it does look like mounting the cooler won't be as bad as I thought, just need to make up some straps and I reckon I can mount it with 4 P clips to the frame rails. One question for the more knowledgeable, most cooler installation feed & return lines to the top of the cooler. I've seen some installations on other bikes where they feed & return to the bottom. I'm guessing the top is desirable to allow gas/air to escape through the lines, rather than potential trapping of air inside the cooler reducing efficiency. Unsure if I'll be able to install with the lines to the top, it will be more difficult for sure due to all the other stuff crammed above the cooler John

Ok Pete I'll gratefully accept your more than generous off. If the Setrab fails to deliver the Stelvio cooler would certainly be an option worth trying, PM me with the shipping costs. You've lived and breathed these engines all your working life Pete, so any advice you care to throw my way I take very seriously so I'll go away for a "think" All I can say from my (very limited) experience, with the RS is that the HiCams seem to behave a bit differently to the 2V engines that I'm familiar with. That's limited to to bikes up to the turn of the last century. I read that Beetle's torque monster engine was stupidly overcooled (paraphrasing his word) but know absolutely nothing about the more recent engines and the technology involved. About the only consensus I can get on the HiCams from outside sources (forums etc:) is the heads run hot. Some seem to be able to tune them to stupid powers and get them to run fine yet mine "appears" to overheat stock. My old stock Daytona which I sold never seemed to have any issues, yet the stage C kit only contributes around 5bhp.........................there just has to be something staring me in the face and I'll be dammed if I can see it Oh and the point of the quote on the cam was that Dynotech Germany offer a cam with a steeper ramp profile that prevents the valve being lifted for long periods and improves the head temperatures. John