audiomick

I think so, and am assuming so until I learn something that contradicts that. As far as I understand it, inductive and capacitive loads are more to do with A.C. circuits than D.C. . We have inrush current to an extent on the motorcycle: conventional light bulbs, starter solenoid, the starter motor. However, the inrush current on the relatively small light globes on a motorcycle is not such an issue, I think. As far as the starter solenoid goes, there is enough discussion about that elsewhere in the forum (Startus Interruptus etc.), and the starter motor itself gets its power more or less direct from the battery, so that is not an issue regarding the relays. The ECU probably has a certain amount of inrush current, but I can't imagine it is large enough to be relevant. The steady state of the electronics should resemble a resistive load, as far as I know. It occurs to me to mention why I am spending so much effort on this when there are known relay types that are adequate for the job. The answer to that is, I want to understand why they are sufficient, and which of the myriad of specifications are actually directly relevant to the application on a motorcycle. It is not really neccessary to know all that, but I am curious.

I can at least guess at least some of that. "nominal" is a word that turns up in relation to audio gear. "Nominal level" is the level that the gear is designed to work best at. Given that audio signals are a.c., and very dynamic, the gear is almost never running at exactly the nominal level. The value states a theoretical level, and the real world is (hopefully) within foreseeable limits around that value. "resistive (load)/resistance" is as opposed to inductive and capacitive loads. A resistive load complies the formula p=VI. Work done (Watt) is the product of voltage and current. Inductors (coils etc.) and capacitors don't exactly. The current for the work done (Watt) can be higher than the formula would suggest for the applied voltage. "Continuous" and "carry" seem to me to be two different words for the same thing, i.e. the current (load) that the contacts can deal with when they are closed. "Switching" is the current that the contacts can deal with when they are opening and closing. We had mention of the problem with arcing when the contacts are slightly open, and you, docc, quoted out of those documents I linked regarding the fact that the "carry" current can be larger than the "switching" current. That is pretty logical to me when I think about how a welder works, and the sparks that happen when attaching the clamps of a battery charger to the battery. "inrush" has to do with the way some devices pull a heap of current when they are switched on compared to how much they draw when they are up and running. Things with coils (including transformers in power supplies) in them, or capacitors, tend to do that. I gather tungsten lights do too (read that somewhere this evening...). Things that do that need a relay that can deal with that "switch on" current, and not just the steady state when the device is running. Wikipedia has an article about inrush current: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inrush_current

Yes, I noticed that difference. What I haven't yet been able to find is anything that explains the relevance of 85°C. That is a temperature that seems to turn up in lots of spec sheets, along with 125°C maximum ambient. I have the impression that it (85°C) may have something to with coil temperature rather than ambient temperature, or that the coil is warmer when the ambient temp. is high. In one of those Documents I think, I saw that the coils warm up when they stay activated (logically...), and that it can take more Volts to activate a warm coil, i.e. turn back on immediately after it has been shut off after a period of operation. Not a usual scenario on the V11, I think. I also wonder if the 85°C might be specified as a limit or maximum tolerance in some Standard.

There is a bloke in the German forum that has the following in his signature: "If God had meant motorcycles to be clean, there would be detergent in the rain".

Found a couple of useful (I think) documents.... https://www.pickeringtest.com/de-de/kb/hardware-topics/relay-reliability/switching-and-relay-specifications https://media.digikey.com/pdf/other related documents/panasonic other doc/small signal relay techincal info.pdf

Glad you're happy with it. And yes, show us a photo.

Of course it would, but they (the manufacturers) don't really want that, do they? Because then your average consumer (us) could easily compare their products. Ok, that was a bit cynical and nasty, but I am getting a bit frustrated with trying to understand those spec. sheets.

Could be. As I said, I still don't know enough about it. Or I can't see the forest for all the trees....

Is there a number on the bolt head? 8.8 or 10.9 or 12.9? The torque is dependant on the tensile strength of the bolt, and the number shows what that is. Going by this document, those bolts must be "standard" M10 and M12 8.8 https://www.anzugsmoment.de/anzugsmoment/

There is a temperature of 85°C mentioned there, as on the spec sheet for the Panasonics that you posted here https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/19755-best-relay/?do=findComment&comment=216346 From other spec sheets, maybe the ones from Hella, I have gained the impression that the current capacity diminishes with increasing temperature. I just had a look at the Omron spec sheet and the ones for CIT and Picker from here https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/19755-best-relay/?do=findComment&comment=216605 and didn't see any reference to Amperes @ °C. So I can't really say if the ones in my V11 are as good as or weaker than those. Still don't know enough about it.

Well that's a reason. I think. I can't help comparing to the GTR 1000. It has the seat lock under the seat on the left-hand side (where one would expect it), and a helmet lock on both sides. Admittedly, one can't get to the helmet locks when the panniers are mounted, but there are two of them, and when the panniers are mounted, you can most likely put the helmets in the panniers.

I had a look for the relays that are in the bike, as I have already mentioned here: https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/30546-a-look-under-the-seat/ Turns out they are apparently readily available here in Germany, and not that expensive at less than €3.50 each. The type is HKE 4133 https://www.conrad.de/de/p/hke-4133-s-dc12v-c-r-kfz-relais-12-v-dc-35-a-1-wechsler-1366558.html?refresh=true https://www.voelkner.de/products/850370/HKE-4133-S-DC12V-C-R-Kfz-Relais-12-V-DC-35A-1-Wechsler.html https://www.digitalo.de/products/731498/HKE-4133-S-DC12V-C-Kfz-Relais-12-V-DC-35A-1-Wechsler.html Here is a spec sheet. The code on them is 4133-S-DC12v-C-R, so C form and with a resistor. https://asset.conrad.com/media10/add/160267/c1/-/en/001366558DS01/datenblatt-1366558-hke-4133-s-dc12v-c-r-kfz-relais-12-vdc-35-a-1-wechsler.pdf That looks alright to me. Does anyone see anything there that is not good?

Somebody probably thought there was a good reason to make that video, but I can't imagine what that reason was... On a more serious note, I had a look for the relays that are in the bike. Turns out they are apparently readily available here, and not that expensive at less than €3.50 each. The type is HKE 4133 https://www.conrad.de/de/p/hke-4133-s-dc12v-c-r-kfz-relais-12-v-dc-35-a-1-wechsler-1366558.html?refresh=true https://www.voelkner.de/products/850370/HKE-4133-S-DC12V-C-R-Kfz-Relais-12-V-DC-35A-1-Wechsler.html https://www.digitalo.de/products/731498/HKE-4133-S-DC12V-C-Kfz-Relais-12-V-DC-35A-1-Wechsler.html Here is a spec sheet. The code on them is 4133-S-DC12v-C-R, so C form and with a resistor. https://asset.conrad.com/media10/add/160267/c1/-/en/001366558DS01/datenblatt-1366558-hke-4133-s-dc12v-c-r-kfz-relais-12-vdc-35-a-1-wechsler.pdf

Regarding the questions in the first post: I found the answer to this one in the circuit diagram. Fuse 8 is labelled "Fusibile a diposizione", i.e. "available fuse". So my assumption that an unused fuse socket has been used for the 12V accessory socket seems to be correct. Does anyone have an answer for this one? And most important of all, this one. Anyone?

Bulk discount on a packet of 50...

Yeah, I will almost certainly move the mount to the other side. I've always had the Sat-Nav on the left handlebar, and in the car down in the left bottom corner of the windscreen, not in the middle. I think that probably has, at least in part, to do with my eyes. On account of amblyopia (Wikipedia knows what that is...), I'm practically blind in my left eye. Putting the device on the left means it is there when I actively look at it, but otherwise doesn't bother me. On a computer with two screens, the right-hand one is also the "main" screen. The left one is there when I look at it, but otherwise just "parked". On top of that, the accessory socket on the Le Mans is on the left, so it would seem to make sense for purely practical reasons to move the mount to that side.

Thanks docc. I've seen those picture somewhere before, I think. Here is what deepl.com reckons the text means:

Today I got around to having a look under the seat of the V11 Le Mans. The short version: it doesn't look butchered, which is a good start. This is the V11, and for good measure her sister, the V35 Imola. The big Bertha under the cover behind the Le Mans is my Kawasaki GTR 1000. T The VIN has a "2" before the "M", which I gather is a sure indicator that the bike was built in 2002 (first registered May 2003). and the build year is corroborated by the label on the ECU Under the seat looks like this. Turns out there is even a collection of mediocre tools in there for rounding off the heads of bolts on the side of the road. There are more photos in the Gallery of the seat base and a couple of spots on the frame where it is obvious that there is contact, as there is wear visible, as is also the case on top of the batterey. The battery box mounts at the front haven't been moved to under the frame rail yet, so I'll have to do that soonish. After having already given some thought to relays (see the "Best Relay" thread) it occurred to me to take notice of what is in there now. Turns out that they are all 5 pin relays. SPDT is the acronym, I believe, i.e. they have both an NC and an NO contact. NO 35 A., NC 20 A., so I'll be leaving them in for the time being. Never heard of the brand, but I expect to be able to find some info in the net somewhere. There are no signs that the relays are contacting the seat base, which is good, but the upper mounting bolt in the picture, i.e. the one to the front of the bike, seems to be. The blinker relay (I guess) is mounted behind the relays with a cable tie. Is that where Luigi put it, or has it been moved? It is apparent that someone has been at the wiring. The first clue is a red wire going away from the battery positive. There are also more pictures of the "new wiring" in the gallery. It looks like a fuse holder that is normally not assigned has been used to supply a fuse for this wiring, the light blue one at the top of the picture for which there is no pictogram on the fuse box lid. Is this assumption, i.e. that this socket is normally not "assigned", correct? Following the wiring, I found this, a 12V accessory power supply socket from Hella. The wire going to it (photo in the gallery) has "Niedervoltleitung" written on it. German for "low voltage line" or "low voltage cable". There is a ball mounted on the handlebar that looks like it will fit the RAM mounts for my Sat-Nav, so the power socket makes sense, and the wiring looks half-way sound, so that is also good. The biggest question is, who's bloody idea was it to put the lock for the seat on the right-hand side of the bike? Took me quite a while to find it.