Skeeve

That's what I was hoping for! Not I, he realistically said... Well, Ratch, it's hard to argue w/ your logic, yet I'd like to point out that this is Americ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H, uh, "Freedonia" & we can fiddle & tinker w/ our machines to our hearts content! So there's one reason for all this slicing & dicing & Julienne frying of airbox lids. More & better reason(s) is the power issue: Phil A. as presented some pretty compelling data that there's free horsepower to be had, simply from a few non-horrendously difficult nor un-neighborly adjustments made to the stock parts, requiring no significant expenditure of fund$. That's efficient & economical, which are two of my favorite "e" words! "Easy" is another one, & this mod kinda falls under that heading too, all the more reason for my willingness to futz about with it. And all that free horsepower isn't just at the top end; some of it is right there in the cruise band, where you'll have the throttle turned to -just there- for the next 3 hours buzzing up the 5 fwy to get to "good road country." Which means you'll burn less fuel [1] getting hither & yon. [2] And once you get to the good road places, which always seem to be a couple thousand feet higher than where I live, the bike will have an easier time of breathing at altitude. Having just come back from a vacation in Utah, I can tell you: going from sea level to a mile up really let's you know how much you air you use! Thanks for the contribution to the thread, I feel much more grounded now. Ride on! [1] Yes, it might be so very little less that it's near impossible to measure. But Guzzis last a long time, & I'm not planning on getting rid of mine any time soon. So it all adds up. I'm willing to wait... [2] And burning less fuel while hithering & yonning is the most practical way to decrease air pollution (shh! don't tell the Greenies, but nobody's going to stop running their errands, etc. to save the planet!)

And so we come full circle! The airbox breathes more freely w/ the "non-top" top you describe, but many who've gone that route have mentioned the intake noise becomes a substantial consideration in terms of their decreased riding enjoyment. I always wear earplugs when I ride, but even so, the less noise the better. If you can approximate the "non-top" air box top performance by going w/ the 3 holes [1], then why not save yourself the drain on physical resources (rider endurance) that the added intake noise would cause? I have yet to get a heat gun for flaring the intake bells, & have been spending some time shopping the spirits section of the supermarket for the correct form [bottle] to use: right now, Baileys is in the lead, but the Malibu coconut rum bottle is a contender too! I've cut the 3 holes already, tho' I went a slightly different route, using a 1&1/4" hole saw for the back corners of the lid, & 1&1/2" for the center hole: these are similar to the 1" size specified by Phil A. for all 3 holes, but are the closest "fit" I had among my cheeep hole saw kit to approximate a ratio of "phi" between the hole areas. Ratchethack may think me some sort of superstitious cargo-cult worshiping aborigine for it, but that dang transcendental "phi" just keeps coming home to roost, so I figured "why not?" Besides, it's not likely to be enough of a difference to hurt anything, & bigger is better, right? [Can you tell I'm a Yank? ] While the lid was off, I got a good look inside the airbox, & I think the next problem is the square-edged "shelf" [sorry I didn't take pix!] at the back of the airbox proper underneath the filter: there's only a narrow space on either side of it leading down to the throttle-body intake horns, and it would appear to be the single greatest impediment to easy-breathing for the V11 motor aside from the airbox lid [which we're already in the process of remedying.] Air does not like turning sharp corners, and it's clear there's space beneath the airbox to allow for some "softening" of that hard edge; it's also pretty clear that it was just easier for production to make the vacuum mold for forming the airbox w/ that nice sharp corner there. It won't require a lot of work to improve it, just enough to change |_ to \_ I'd let you know how it turns out, but since I've never dyno'd the bike, I'll just have to take it on faith that it'll be an improvement. Hard to see how it wouldn't be... but yes, I'll take it slow & careful when the time comes, because who wants a form-fit, no-removal possible, custom airbox-on-spine frame? [1] "What's w/ the 3 shells?" Quick - name the movie!

Jackal, Stone or later: they're supposed to have a longer swingarm, right? At least, that's what Subtle Crowbar put on their LSR effort to s - t - r - e - t - c - h the wheelbase, IIRC... And that longer swinger helps the handling [moves the wt. bias forward some.] Differences btw Cali/V11 motors are valve sizes: V11s have sizes just a hair smaller than the big valve LMIV & Vs, if I'm not mistaken, whereas Calis are medium or small valves [depending on era: "California" covers a lot of territory, pun intended! ] Starting w/ a 1000S would make doing a 'cafe' pretty short work, since that's what the factory did for you when they brought it out! Pretty much all the work is done, just rip off a few extra gew gaws & you're done...

Well, when you consider that the Hi-Cam breathes better than the 2v engine at all speeds, it makes sense that the airbox is a greater limiting factor in relation to the Hi-Cam engine than ours. But better breathing is better, regardless.

Well, you certainly don't need to carry all 3 if you're interested in opening a Vespa boutique, but Piaggio may look more favorably upon someone who wants to carry both Aprilia & Guzzi in one location. If I had the money, tho', I'd opt for all 3, & maybe try to carry a competing brand like Triumph "next door" as well. Try to cover as many Euro bases as possible w/o cannibalizing your own sales, ie: you wouldn't want to have an Aprilia/Guzzi/Ducati setup, since the Aprilia & Ducati sales are too competitive w/ each other...

O.K., I'll bite: Stock x-over, w/o any mufflers. Basically, almost a 2->1 w/ straight pipes. If that's wrong, I'll try plan B: reverse cone megaphones w/ a Stucchi...

Just one question remains: How do you do this? Dip the intake horns in boiling water? Blowtorch? Clicking your heels together & saying "I want to go home, I want to go home, nah I changed my mind, I want a better airbox lid instead?" After spending an altogether unreasonable amount of time struggling to get the darn fuel tank off[1], I finally managed to work my way down to accessing the lid. Now what? [1] We should start a FAQ titled "Things You Ought To Know About Your Guzzi That Make No Sense Whatsoever." In it we can put answers to such questions like "Why does Guzzi use a really great connector on the red/black pair of wires, & then use this impossibly annoying different style on the blue/white pair? Instead of just reversing the good connector, Guzzi chose to utilize this square block w/ a clip that can only be lifted to release the halves. Only, lifting the little arm of the clip doesn't release it, pressing it down does. Only you *can't* press it down because of the little plastic post beneath it. Get some needle nose pliers and rip out the post. Of course, even being able to see what the problem is while fiddling around beneath the tank is what makes this whole FAQ necessary... Anyway, once the post is torn out, you'll be able to press down on the little arm, releasing the connector. Then you just need to run to the hardware store for 1/4" & a 3/16" hose barbs so you can cut the overflow & vapor recovery tubes & make the job easier for yourself the next time you take off the tank.

[emphasis added] Yeah, I think that was my final thought over on the original thread for modifying the stock cans: there's just so little you can do to them that's worth the effort involved! I think about the limit as far as "reasonably easy" is just to pull off the end cap and drill a bunch of tiny little holes in the end of the can to vent the area stuffed w/ steel wool [chamber 4]: the flow won't be signficantly increased, but it should help a tiny bit (esp. at full chat), & of course you'll get a slightly deeper "boom" out of the stock cans w/o increasing the noise level to the point that the neighbors will notice or care. To increase flow, pulling up a tab on the bottom of chamber one, drilling a couple of 1cm or 3/8" holes in the bottom of the main exhaust line & resealing the tab, and then pulling a tab on the top of chamber 2 and drilling a couple of 1.5cm or 1/2" holes in the top of the outlet tube [or even cutting out an entire section of it] & resealing the tab will be about the limit as far as time & effort worth the results. And even then, only for someone who's perrenially short of funds & has the skills & tools necessary to do it himself [or a willing friend w/ the tools/skills who is up for the experiment just for the fun of it.] Next stage: designing a muffler that will fit w/in the stock envelope & provide all the stock mounting points, but will provide superior performance w/ acceptably quiet noise levels! This task is so trivial, it will be left as an exercise for the reader...

The only problem w/ 20w50 being that is too thick; from the days of the 1st Ambassador Guzzi's specs have called for a thinner oil than that. Maybe not if you're tooling around the Sudan or Northern Australia, but definitely too heavy for most of us in more moderate climes. I have good experience w/ Rotella or Mobil 1 15w50, so I'll likely stick w/ them...

"Nearby competition" or sufficient density of dealer support to make it a viable brand? There's a tight line to walk between exclusivity & availability: Harley is hardly exclusive any more, but you sure can't fault the availability of nearby dealer support anywhere in the lower 48! WRT to franchise requirements, I would think that it would be an easier sell to have all 3 Aprilia/Guzzi/Vespa in one location than to try going it alone w/ any of the 3 brands; they dovetail together nicely, as far as it goes. Clearly the clientele has to have some appreciation for Italian marques before you're going to sell them anything, as all 3 are priced at a premium over the competition from the Far East, & may not necessarily outperfom them in straight up comparison. But since I have no real knowledge, I'll just shut my yapper now & let someone w/ a clue continue this thread...

It's only highly corrosive & toxic as all get out, but yeah, hydrazine has a lot going for it as a fuel... that's why even the govt. has pretty much given up on it, 'cause the handling issues were all so miniscule. No challenge to it! FWIW, there's a guy out there making light, sweet crude out of chicken heads & kitchen waste. Con Agra & Marriott are joint partners in a pilot plant that's so far supposed to be pulling its own [largely because of the reduced fines from pollution from all the turkey guts Con Agra would otherwise have to find some other mean$ of dealing with... or so I gathered from the article I read on it.] We may not be out of oil yet, altho' it's not an entropy-killer: it still takes a lot of heat & pressure to make the conversion, the conversion isn't anywhere near 100% of the reactants, and the process has still quite a bit of "suck it & see" to it. But between higher efficiency engines [compound turbo diesel hybrid motorcycles, anyone?] and more effective waste processing, we might make it to a future of solar-powered road cities yet [which will obsolete motor vehicles entirely, so all us enthusiasts will have the roads virtually to ourselves, since you'll be able to travel coast to coast on moving sidewalks!]

Actually, that makes a lot of sense: bore out the leading cylinder a bit & put in a very light, thin slipper piston w/ a rubber o-ring seal instead of piston rings and of course, cut off the fuel supply to the TB & put a metal plug in the sparkplug socket. Route the exhaust port to the intake on the trailing cylinder, & then you can even sleeve the cylinder & put in a smaller dia. piston [so the flame front doesn't have so far to travel]: better cut it down to about 78mm, a tad undersquare. Of course, you'll have to radically change the cam timing: the lead cylinder will have to have the exhaust valve open briefly right at the top of the stroke, and of course, intake timing will be changed quite a bit too. On the firing cylinder, the exhaust valve opening won't change, but it'll start closing at BDC and be shut tight before 50 deg ABDC. The intake valve will open @ 20 deg ABDC and shut promptly at 90 deg BTDC; good thing we've got forced induction! The fuel injection helps out here too, since it enables us to use it for a "stratified charge" kind of effect, dumping the fuel into the intake stream after the exhaust valve has shut & preventing short-circuiting for that all-important Euro3 certification! The chain drive for the cam will be a big help in all this, since driving the cam at 1:1 is just a change to the cam sprocket. Don't worry about having to fiddle w/ the ECU to adjust timing for firing every cycle: just dual-plug the head [of course, this would be easier on one of the new models, since they come dual-plugged from Mandello] and put the now-useless sparkplug lead for the (super)charging cylinder on the trailing [firing] one. You'll need to adjust the Hall transducer location, I guess, but we'll bodge this thing together somehow... Ride on!

Great introduction, Freya! Fabulous storytelling, and of course, wonderful taste in motorcycles, too! V11LM is lucky to have you join its ranks!

Dunno what it is now, but back when MGNA was (mis)handling things, around '96 or '97, I contacted them to find out. In those dim, dark days, it took: A regular place of business [storefront] Space for two models on display [which you bought from MGNA at wholesale] About $25k in parts supply All told, about $50k in upfront money; '96 dollars, so call it $100k in today's inflated dinero. That would be under MGNA's laissez faire supervision [which netted them a declining dealer network, etc.] Under Piaggio? Given their insistence that Vespa's be sold via the "boutique" format, I would expect a much higher initial cost to buy in as a Guzzi dealer! I'm guessing at least one of each model for display purposes, maybe a critical components list of parts to keep on hand for each, a substantial outlay for associated tourist trinkets [branded wear], and a service bay of some sort. As I'm horrifically & perenially broke, I'm not even going to bother to try & find out exactly what Piaggio requires: I'll settle for dreaming of a new LeMans w/ the 8 valve motor!

WRT upper diagram: "I want to describe my modifications on the original exhaust cans of my V11. The result of my modifications was 3 HP more on the dyno in the higher rpms with an exhaust note almost stock. My mods: The idea was to let the gassses pass the muffler without changing the direction. Originally, the gas enters through to to chamber 3, turns back to 2, 1 and back out via the very long end tube. In the first chamber I cut' out 50 mm from the tube which enters from the collector. (On the mufflers I modified, there was the catalytic converter in that place). The 2nd chamber remained untouched. In the 3rd chamber I cut' out 50 mm from the upper tube which goes out. The 4th chamber with the steel wool remained untouched too. So the exhaust gas flow finds an open end in chamber 1, passes to chamber 2, 3 and can leave from there via the much shorter end tube. No change in direction." Lower diagram: "My next step would be to eliminate the wall between 1st and 2nd chamber (drilling out the welding spots). The wall between chamber 2 and 3 has no spot welding. I leave approx. 50 mm of the tubes on both sides of that chamber wall. This will be welded into the can to divide the volume in now only two chambers of similar volumes. Chamber 4 remains untouched again. So the gasses enter chamber 1, pass via 4 tubes into chamber 2 and leave from there through the end tube. The gas flow passes now 2 chambers of a bigger volume and have more room to move. The backpressure will further decrease, the power will (hopefully) make another step upwards and the noise level will slightly increase. I intend to perform this during this winter. I hope my descriptions are clear, the pictures on the previous posts should help that. Attached is the power graph: completely stock, slight modifications on engine with CR +0,5, like above with my modified mufflers."

I think the differences were published here in a thread at some point in the past. Was it Dlaing in the TuneBoy thread? The maps are significantly leaner in some places & richer in others, but I don't recall there being any difference in the timing between the two maps. I may be hallucinating, but I'm pretty certain this was the case... Maybe over at Guzzitech? I *know* this topic came up before & some hard numbers were put up, I just can't remember where/when...

Well, Pete, here's my guess [hopefully, Phil will chime in to say how close or far off I am... ]: the holes in the back corners of the box help delete the harmonics reflecting off those corners [a sawed off corner of a cube being the optical basis of the retroreflectors they put on the Moon for laser-ranging of that satellite, and molded into the back of clear amber or red or white bits of plastic are affixed to bicycles the world over] - so that's why they're where they are. The central hole is there partly for increased airflow thru the filter, and also because being 1/2 the area of the other two holes, it deletes the harmonic that their presence would create. The teardrop shapes work because they're essentially a whole range of holes [excuse the pun] .o0O so that the harmonics between all three teardrops are kind of "self-tuning" in eliminating themselves. Anyway, that's all I can figure from my limited knowledge of high-school physics and Aristotlean logic [known for being fallible beyond all others! ] Really looking forward to Phil A giving us more details of his 500cc dry-lake racer: it sounds quite interesting!

[emphasis added above] Well, the airbox we're working with is basically Dr. John's update of the airbox Umberto Todero came up with for the LMIII back in the late 70s, so it stands to reason that there's room for improvement. Only, there's literally no room for an improved airbox, unless we want to go back to the mono-posto original Daytona, w/ the airbox in the tail! Alternatively, we could revert to the Tonti frame, w/ some slight redesign, drop the fuel tank down where it belongs [for mass centralization] between the cylinders, and put a larger volume airbox under a false "tank" cover a la' Buell & the MGS01. But on our spine frames, the spine & shock are filling the space that our airbox & gas tank needs to occupy, so I'm thinking Phil A's mods to the stock airbox [that between U. Todero & Dr. John, probably already have untold man-hours, if not man-months or even -years of time spent in optimization within the space- & noise-constraints imposed by frame design or govt. edict] are about the best that can be done under the circumstances. Of course, I still entertain the thought of rigging up some sort of ram-air intake on my LeMans, since the fairing is just there taking up space anyway, but then what am I going to do w/ the darn headlight?

Tech specs for the new 8v: tech specs Get a load of the valve overlap! Must be running pretty dang lean w/ all the overlap to still meet E3 regs; I imagine there's a lot of power to be found once uncorked & fuel matched to best power vs. least pollution...

Don't know how it goes in WA, but here in CA, ins. co.'s will "total" a bike 'cause it's too expensive to fix, but then not give you enough to actually replace it ['cause they use their own fantasy market values, not the KBB full retail numbers], and then try to get you to sign over the title on the totaled machine to them to get your check. Don't fall for the scam: if they don't actually pay you enough to replace the bike, it's still yours! They'll turn around and sell the carcass to a salvage yard for $500 or more to defray their costs, while not meeting their obligation to replace the bike they've totaled [& btw, rendered largely valueless by clouding the title w/ a "Salvage" status, even if you did fix it up & try to sell it...] Don't be afraid to play hardball w/ them, do your shopping to find the actual price of models identical to yours are selling for [eBay has some uses in this area, as well as ads in Craigslist, etc.] & don't just sign over your old bike unless they've actually paid you for it. Yeah, parting it out yourself might be a complete pain & nuisance, but if they refuse to come thru w/ the correct payout, it may make up the difference between what they gave you & what you actually need to replace it... Best o' luck, & hopefully, your ins. co. isn't populated by the sort who only care about the bottom line...

All sarcasm aside, you can generally judge a supervisor by how their subordinates view them. It's generally well known that the Secret Service agents during the Klinton administration particularly loathed Hilary; while they would have taken a bullet for Bubba 'cause it was their job, nobody was going to go out of their way to save the life of the FLOTUS during their regime. I think that reveals all I need to know about her as a candidate to replace the Shrub...

Just remember to post a final"final" version of the procedure here, so I can d/l it when all the honing of verbiage, arguing of millivolts [i'm in for 520+-5mv], etc. is done! BTW, when it comes to balancing [throttle bodies or carbs], it's done at idle, 'cause the off-idle difference is where it's felt & has the motor working against itself. Balancing carbs at 3k rpm never did any good whatsoever if they weren't balanced at idle; I can't imagine throttle bodies are that different wrt ridability f/x...

Getting ahead of yourself? Or is that the planned date for when the schematic will be available? Thanks for the update!

As others have stated, glad you came thru O.K., & sorry for your lost bike! Good thing is that if you were going to crash, you crashed now instead of a couple years ago when prices on Guzzis, new or used, were so depressed because of lack of confidence in continued existence of the brand! WRT "ATGATT:" a couple of posts to this thread have said "I was just going to go for the blue jeans & t-shirt for the quick ride to the store, I don't live in a helmet law state (or country.)" Case study #1: my brother, many years ago when the Suzuki GS750 was a hot bike to ride and before Calif. had a helmet law, decided to run down to the gas station to buy some more cigarettes. Literally 2 blocks away. A blue hair runs a red light & nails him. He came thru o.k. (luckily!), but has a nifty Frankenstein scar in his forehead & was picking road grit out of his skin even a year later... [1] Case study #2: 2 years ago this past May 17th, I decided to ride to work in just my jeans & leather jacket, it was such a nice day, too nice to get completely suited up. No, I'd better wear it, that's why I bought that used Aerostich, & besides, who knows how cold it'll be tonight when I get off work?.. 2 miles later, some yutz pops his door on me as I'm filtering up to the front at a red light. Even w/ the suit & padding, catching the door edge on meant going to hospital & having my knee stitched up; they decided that I have a 2-pc patella, & declined to put pins in my kneecap. I'll never walk quite right again, but you can be d@mn certain that I'm glad I reconsidered the ATGATT option! [2] Keep the faith, Slugster! [1] No, he didn't even get his bike replaced & all his medical bills covered, his lawyer clearly sold him out to the other side. She wasn't particularly wealthy, but she had the ins. coverage & owned her own home, etc. I didn't find out about the gory legal details until many years afterward, or I would have been the first person in line to get that clown disbarred... [2] No, the yutz didn't get charged w/ vehicular assault, even tho' it was clearly intentional [who waits until the light turns green to pop their door in traffic?] Nice enough police officer responding to the scene, but he was a cruiser officer, not a motor cop. If it had been a CHP motor officer, I'm fairly certain that I would have had the pleasure of seeing said yutz carted off in cuffs. The CHP aren't known for being kind to idiots of that ilk & letting them off w/ a simple $50 ticket... Yutz had just declared bankruptcy a couple months prior, so he was judgement proof. Just my (un)lucky day, I guess!

Some ROTs ['rule of thumb'][1] I've come across over the years: Exhaust pipe (header) dia. Exhaust gases are hot = less dense = speed of sound Phil Irving's[2] Tuning for Speed is in it's 6th printing & "OOP" [out of print.] Cheapest I've seen it in the last couple years is about $60 on Alibris; I don't think there was a copy available for less than $125 last time I looked. There's got to be a reason why a book that's had 6 printings [starting early '60s, last one in the early 90's] is still so popular that w/ all those copies floating around, there aren't so many that the price drops down to the realm of normal [$25-$30] prices for similar books on Amazon. I wonder why that is? Ride on, [1] The expression "rule of thumb" comes from an ancient English ordinance stipulating that "a man may not beat his wife with a rod thicker than the width of his thumb." This is why women today all dig musicians, w/ their long, skinny fingers. Adaptive evolution! [2] Australian engineer probably most famous for working for Vincent HRD. Heard of them? He helped make that marque famous...