Desdinova

I haven't been logged in for awhile, but I still subscribe to the forums and saw this topic come across my email... Based on my experience, the most important FIRST step, is to ensure the mechanical aspects are working as they should. I had a "rough" problem that plagued me for several years. I could move the rough idle all over the RPM spectrum, and even mask it with Power Commander tricks, but it wasn't until my fast-idle cable broke that I was able to clear it up. It turned out there was a small burr on the linkage of one of the throttle bodies that was preventing the throttle from going to its fully closed position. Upon normal inspection it really looked like it was seated but it wasn't until I was up close and intimate that I found it. In fact, the "trigger" to get me looking at it was replacing the fast idle cable resulted in the bike acting like a screwed up the whole mapping scheme. That just didn't seem right. In fact, with the fast-idle cable off the bike, it would barely start. The burr was on the linkage and only scraping with the cable attached, and only keeping the throttle open an almost immeasurable amount. Please excuse the over-emphasis... but once I cleared off the burr.. tuning the bike from scratch, and setting up the power commander and having to figure out new mappings... all without a Dyno... took but a few hours. It was so easy because everything reacted now as it should. The bike has run like a champ ever since. Starts every time, idles fine, loads of torque, no backfire.. etc etc.. I'm not saying that a burr on the throttle linkage is a symptom/cure for every rough idle issue... I AM saying, we should always check EVERYTHING.

Got it running ok today. Did a little experimenting to get the trim at least close which I did. Applied a MAP from a similar setup I download from Guzzi Tech. I really need to get this thing to a dyno, but alas... the one that should have been parked in my driveway hasn't appeared and there isn't a reliable one that I know of within reasonable or even unreasonable travel distance...

Skeeve, as I mentioned... the map is dumped (although I spelled zero'd wrong). I need to set the idle trim on the ECU before I put a new map or do anything. The bike runs, but just barely.. it's probably too rich... Normally this is done at the factory and it likely never changes, but someone monkey'd with it so I need to set it again. I tried to do it by ear, but I can't seem to get the VDST to save the setting properly, which is part of the issue, the other is I really need an -02 wand to do it right. Can't even attempt mapping until this is done and need an 02 wand to do it. I may try again by ear today, just to get it back on the road. -mkb

Hi Folks, Well after several months of just looking at the Lemans, we had a nice day so I thought I would attempt to get it running and begin tuning the bike. Quick History: 1. Some time back (2005) my bike was tuned and dyno'd but there were some quirks that I was never able to flush out. 2. Earlier this year, the bike's tuning deteriorated to point where it wouldn't run at all. 3. I decided to do the normal TPS, TB-adjust, Valve-Adjust and during that process.... 4. ....was when I determined the bike had been previously setup with the Throttle Advance cable not completely disconnected. This now meant everything was off. The PCIII Mapping was off, the idle trim was off, everything. Everything was compensating for something else being off because the throttle bodies never actually reached their closed position, hence the TPS was never set correctly. Ok.. so here I am with two questions. 1. Is there a way to read the CURRENT trim setting with the VDST software. I thought there was, but mine seems to come up ZERO until I adjust and save, but I think it resets back to ZERO once I shut off the bike. 2. For those using VDST software, what are you using for an O2 Sensor. I hate to spend $300 for a one time use item. In fact, if someone has one I could borrow... that already fits the fitting on the pipes, I'd be forever indebted. I would just need it long enough to set the trim properly with a Zero's PCIII Map, so I could then take the bike and get it Dyno'd knowing the PCIII wouldn't be "compensating" for the trim being incorrect. I doubt the place I'm gonna take the bike has access to the ECU... although I guess I could bring my laptop with me and let them use it. 3. For those with an O2 Sensor, what have you set the air/fuel to read at idle. I have seen 13:1 but wanted to hear from people who have actually measured it. Anyway, I'm open for idea's. I miss riding my LeMans. It runs, but it's very sluggish cause the trim is likely way off. I know what the bike can do, I just want to get it back to that point now that I know it's all set up properly from the mechanical side.

Otay!!! As I have several times in the past, I got the bike running today, but this time I had the PCIII out of the loop just in case. I got it to run, idle was still high (1700 rpm) , carbs balances, 501mv, PCIII not in the mix. I then brought up the VDST Software and low and behold, the trim is at -45!!!! That just didn't seem right so I zero'd it. Hmmm bike runs a little better... lets try bringing that idle down with the bypass screws now and see if goes to heck as it has the other half-dozen times... Nope... this time it's fine. I can achieve idle at about 1100 rpm, 500mv, 3.4% throttle, balanced carbs. However, with Stuchi crossover, open airbox and FBF CF Pipes.... we need the PCIII back in the mix. This is going to take some work, because the PCIII was set up (a few years ago) with the trim apparently at -45. The TPS was not set up properly either, which is why they probably adjusted the trim. I was pretty proud of the results I had got once I dynoed the bike and did my own balancing, but now that I have the TPS where it belongs, and the trim at zero, the PCIII map is essentially worthless. It runs sortof ok with the PCII zeroed out, but it's not great. It's now off to find a DynoJet Tuning center that will touch a non-Harley. Off for a test ride now.

Thanks for the test light tip... I was in a state of.... well... remember the saying... When you're up to your butt in alligators, it's easy to loose track that the mission was to drain the swamp!!! It turned out to be the Clutch lever safety switch was acting up. Just fiddling with it apparently did the trick. Now back to the other thread..... or maybe just start a new one.

I didn't want to pollute the other starter related thread if not necessary. As I noted in an earlier thread I couldn't get my bike to idle/run using any of the posted methods so I decided to go "old school" on the project. To make a long story short, I did EVERYTHING and checked EVERYTHING that one can possibly check, sensors, cables, relays etc etc etc.. Well, I got the bike to run. Could only get it to run smooth at about 1700 rpm. TPS volts at 501mv, carbs balanced, PCII NOT in the loop. While adjusting the ByPass screws didn't seem to have a great affect on vacume, it sure did on weather the bike ran or not. Right side out about 1 1/8th and left only 3/4. ANYTHING other than that, and it would start coughing a spitting. So I figure fine.. This is at least running and I can research further. Well that was short lived. I let the bike cool off and was going to hook up the PCIII. Just wanted to check to make sure it started first. NOTHING Well not nothing. Lights, Voltage, Fuel Pump, all normal. Even hooked up the VDSTS to the bike. Everything checks out. Just no engine turning. Did the starter let go in the middle of all this? As I said, plenty of voltage, swapped the relays, lights, fuel pump, all fine. Coils test out, etc etc.. just press starter and get nothing. I moved the shiftlever and I can hear the relay for nuetral click, so that's not it either. Engine just not turning over. not happy

Has anyone used, or have any suggestions for a "maintenance tank" to use on the V11. Sometimes when trouble-shooting it's just easier to hang a small tank above the bike (hold a quart or so) to work things out without having the tank mounted. I have done this on older carb bikes, but wondered if any had done this on an EFI bike where pressure and such is important. Somthing like this: Deluxe Aux Fuel Tank Just wondered if someone had used this or something similar... DIY etc...

Well I thought the LeMans was the perfect "Sport Touring" until the Norge came out. I think the label "sport touring" is a little ambiguous so I'll apply MY definition. Sport Touring to me, is a bike that is great for a day trip, riding the twisties that also has the potential has many of us have done, to be decked out for full touring. The whole V11 Sport series provides a great baseline to build from. My LeMans is one of the most comfortable bikes I've owned. On the otherhand, there are Touring bikes. Victory Vision, Goldwing, BMW (don't know the models) . those are touring bikes. They can handle the twisties and scoot around town... but they are best suited for the open road, especially highway. While my LeMans is "comfortable" on the open road, what's the point of all the torque and maneuvering ability to go in a straight line. Enter the Norge. Rather than having to deck out my LeMans, I will be able to strip down the Norge for the more "sporty" days. It's got a great riding position, heated grips, 1200 engine, big tank, that low-end torque we love on our Guzzi's... but it's built a bit more toward Touring than sport. Well, that's my opinion... your mileage may vary.

Yep... I agree... grasping for straws at this point.

I was busy with other things this weekend but I did get to check that "cam stop" that was mentioned. I guess it just didn't sink in. Mine is fine. It's the fast-idle cam and there is a bit of clearance, it's not touching, although I could easily see how setting the fast idle cable could muck things if if one wasn't careful. I also on close inspection see some faint cracking of the intake boot, on the side of the throttle body facing the route up to the air cleaner. While it's really mild, I'll replace it in the process of checking this out. Anyway... thanks for the tips.

Thanks Tom, I get what you are saying. It can't hurt and is easy enough to try. The result may be another clue to the underlying issue. Thanks

Thanks Tom, good points.. The issue is as you noted, "it just happened", was commuting to work every day, then it was actually on the way home one day that it was a bear to start, then the next morning... it started, but I couldn't go... - idle @ 1100rpm isn't going to happen with 3.6 degrees (or 500mv) that's going to be around 2000rpm + If I back off both idle screws completely.. then just turn the left one in (I've tried this with only the right one too), she'll hit 1100rpm at about 200mv, basically at 1 degree. I'm thinking something got out of wack with this other "bottom facing screw" that was mentioned... And to be clear... the idle and revs and carb balance are fine in Neutral. Bike sounds great, idles great, runs great.... starts easily.... . until I try to ride. -mkb

Could you do a picture of the bottom facing screw on the RH throttle body. The only thing I see is the pivot point assembly for the CAM.. and we may be onto something here. Still not sure why it would go from fine to crap overnight, but one thing at a time as they say. Although probably hard to glean from all the above, setting the TPS to read 500mv at idle and having an idle lower than 2000 rpm just isn't possible. Forget balance and forget even opening the Air ByPass screws, that's only going to increase the idle from 2000rpm. Again, all this pointing at this other screw you speak of. If you can get a picture with a little photoshop labeling... that would be cool. (yeah, I know... not asking much). I will take all of this and put into a definitive tech article one done. It still may be a combination of things... remembering that it was running fine.. then one morning.. just didn't.

If that's how they work.. that's possible. If the sensor is dead, that would likely = cold. That is also something that would just go south overnight, or I assume a bad connection would have the same result. I was also thinking the ground from the battery where it attached to the frame. This was a somewhat common item on a batch of Victory bikes. They didn't scrape the paint to get a good metal to metal contact where the ground attaches from the battery to the frame. The symptom is similar to what I have going on, so I did a cursory check, but I'm in the process of putting checklist together based on input here and give it one more serious go this week sometime before throwing in the towel. Thanks... I'm liking the sensor theory so far the best.

Just did an experiment and it's lack of really positive result may be telling in itself. (I really didn't mean to hi-jack this thread, I thought the usual "oh, just do this little-known-thing" was going to be a one line answer from someone and I'd be all set....) I did re-check the plug wire and coil connections. Anyway, just for giggle I decided to back off the left idle adjustment and set the idle by ear using only the right side idle adjustment, which at this point was not engaged (used a .002 feeler guage to insure it was just... almost touching, but not). Both bypass screws all the way in. - So it started as usual, then holding the throttle to keep it from stalling I adjusted the idle stop screw until it idled nicely. - At this point, rolling on the thottle just a little caused the usual backfire spit'n nonsence... so.. - I started with the right side bypass and just started turning it out in 1/4 turn increments, bliping the throttle between and it almost stopped backfiring and spitting. I had to back off the idle stop a little as the more I turned out the bypass, the higher the idle. - The right bypass is now out about 2.5 turns, the TPS is showing about 270mv and it sounds like it's ready to ride, with just a little girlie-burp as I open the throttle. - I try adjusting the left bypass in the same manner as the right, but it has little to NO affect at all on anything. Doesn't affect the idle, the burping, nothing. - So I try to ride it this way... no joy. Stall, cough cough. - I put the merc tubes back on, and in nuetral, it starts, and the carbs are balanced. There are other forces at work here. I have worked on this and other bikes before, and this one is throwing me a serious curve ball. If I had the extra cash I would get an O2 stick. It also almost seems like the "timing" is off, allthough that doesn't really apply and really odd part is over 2000 rpm, it's fine. So far (with an earlier omission) - The popping and spitting seems to be on the RIGHT SIDE almost exclusively. - The LEFT Bypass screw has little affect on anything. - The Carbs balance. - Smooth idle and running can be achieved with a myriad of combinations of idle and air bypass settings, some that probably shouldn't work. - The TPS voltage seems very consistent and smooth, however 500mv causes the idle to be WAY too high, no matter what else is done. - With the TPS at 500mv both the VDST and PCIII software indicate the throttle is just shy of 3.5% which is about right too, so it doesn't seem like anything is faking out the ECU or the PCIII and also re-enforces the TPS seems to be operating correctly. Sensor? Injectors? Voodoo? This has all the marking of something really simple, that just needs to be found. -mkb

"plug wires! or the caps.. see if they are screwed in to some blueish copper wire instead of nice clean copper" I checked for fitment and solid "click" when seated... I will check again. Any other idea's while I'm "under the hood" so to speak?

Checked for airleaks, actually went around checked everything for anything loose. Found a couple exhaust bolts that needed tightening, but nothing affected the overall outcome. Checked the boots. Cleaned the throttle bodies.. and yes double checked they had full travel. I've pretty much done everything I listed twice (except checking the valves only once) once last weekend, then once this weekend. I'm thinking a sensor, the injectors or the ECU itself as disregaurding the high idle, the consistant theme is "when loaded." Even tried an experiment of keep the RPMS over 2000 and feathering out the clutch and as soon as there is a load, it craps out and I can't even use the throttle to keep the revs yet. Yet in neutral... I can pretty much set the idle to whatever I want and using the throttle, pick an RPM and it runs smooth as silk. Responsive and smooth. -mkb

Yep, me too. Excuse the below novel... but I wanted to make sure I covered everything I did... I don't get stumped easily, but this one has me. Or at least similar. Mine can best be described as UNDER LOAD it spits, backfires and stumbles. - I talked to Greg at Moto-International and he had a VERY good suggestion of checking the connectors on the injectors for schmootz. Well I did that, they were clean. - Today I started from scratch. Took off the balance rod, and noticed that like someone else posted, my right butterfly was not totally closed, but in my case it was just a crumb of crud or something.. So, to date.. what I have done... and FYI.. I have the VDST software and the PCIII Software.. and everything checks out, or seems to. - Checked the Valve clearance (cold). Hadn't done it in awhile, left exhaust was just a smidge snug, so I made it right. (World settings) - Adjusted TPS to 150mv and let it lightly slap closed a few times to insure it was at 150mv. - Hooked up balance rod. Insured TPS still at 150mv - Sent ZERO map to PCIII (same as disconnecting it which I have also tried in the past to figure this out.) - Closed bypass screws and hooked up mercury tubes. - Used left idle to bring TPS up to 500mv - Started and adjusted balance adjuster to balance tubes. So here's where I am... Vacume is balanced at idle and at high RPM almost perfectly. Idle voltage on TPS 500mv Bypass screws are still closed. So what's the problem you say??? It's idling at nearly 2000 rpm!!!! and... ....... If I try to ride it, as soon as I let out the clutch it starts kicking, sputtering, gagging and stalls. I can back the idle down (using the left screw) and at about 200mv the idle is about right. but.... .......If I try to ride it, as soon as I let out the clutch it starts kicking, sputtering, gagging and stalls. - Messing with removing or adding gas via the PCIII in an attempt to make it worse or better... doesn't really change anything. - Opening the bypass screws has some affect on idle speed, the right more than the left, but the result, no matter where it idles or why it.. .......If I try to ride it, as soon as I let out the clutch it starts kicking, sputtering, gagging and stalls. I'm stumped, baffled, bewildered, be-bothered and be-mildred. Oh yeah, one last and very frustrating thing.. With or without the PC inline or just Zeroed... as long as I'm not "in gear getting ready to take off" I can blip the throttle, rev it up, whatever. It sounds and responds perfectly!!! So to summarize, besides it not wanting to go... With everything set as it should be, Idle at 500mv, Carbs Balanced, screws out as far as 2 or closed doesn't really matter, it idles way too high, and as soon as you put it in gear to go.... it craps out. Making any normal adjustments (left idle screw mainly) to correct the high RPMS... just corrects the high RPM's. I think it's next stop... Moto International, but thought I would post here to see if anyone had any clues of something I hadn't tried. By the way... this started happening all of a sudden. I had been riding it to work everyday, all was fine, then one morning... I started it.. tried to pull out to go to work and couldn't. I also, last week, -Checked/Cleaned/gapped old plugs... no change so put in new plugs as part of this process. Miles

I'm inclined to think "It's a V11 Sport" Guzzi thing. I totally agree that there really is no reason, a motorcycle with an EFI, that you should hear anything more than the click of the switch before it fires up. My LeMans runs like a cat chasing a mouse. Fast, agile and 0 to 60 in nothing flat. It idles at about 1000 rpm's from the time it starts, when it finally starts. I will try the "recycle the starter" method, as I hadn't tried that yet. I usually crack open the throttle, hit the starter. It will start to catch after a couple of seconds, but won't run yet. I do this about three times and usually.... read USUALLY it will start before it's flooded or the battery gets drained. But it does start. I have the VDST software and monitored and tested every aspect. The sensors are working, it gives that "extra burst" at cold start, etc etc etc.. Essentially there is nothing "technically" wrong. It's just hard to start. For comparison, my other starting proceedures. Victory V92C: (EFI) Turn key, turn on, pull throttle advance, press starter button with one finger (no throttle). You don't even hear the engine turn, just starts instantly. I leave the throttle advance pulled for about 20-30 seconds before releasing it to a nice 1100rpm idle. '81 Guzzi Convert: (Carbs) Turn up Choke lever, turn key, turn on, with one finger press starter (no throttle). It will usually do a partial turn then spin up. Kindof sounds like va-vrooommmmmm. and it's running. I then release the choke and keep in idleing with the throttle for about 30 seconds. .02 Silverwing: (EFI) Turn key, turn on, press start and apply just a little throttle and it catches almost instantly. It does have a digital throttle advance, but nothing the rider has to deal with. .02 Triumph Bonneville America: (Carbs) Now we don't have this bike anymore, but it was essentially like the Convert. Pull choke, hit starter, but usually had to touch the throttle at the same time and it would spin right up. So... Why are so many of us even having this "hard start" conversation. I had, up until this last search, blamed my LeMans's hard starting on it's modifications. K&N Filter, open airbox, Stucchi Crossover, FBF pipes. Lots of airflow. But after reading everything a search here brings. I don't think that's it. I think it just is what it is. But on a modern bike (of term used loosely) it shouldn't be that way.

I had a Ballabio for a couple of months but opted for the LeMans only because everything I wanted to do to the Ballabio was already done. I like the clip-ons of the LeMans because the stock ones were replaced with adjustible ones and I was able to dial them in better than the fixed Ballabio bars. The LeMans had a faring, also an easy add for the Ballabio as was the Maund seat. So... my recommendation is that if the bars on the Ballabio are "perfect" for you as is... Get the Ballabio and dress it up any way you want. If there is any comfort question, go to the RM and realize you can always put it back to stock is you decide the resell. Of course, depending on where you are located, you might just want to ::shamless plug alert:: buy my '02 LeMans

Sorry if this has already been discussed. I did a search, didn't find anything.. but if it has... consider me spanked and point me in the right direction. I have seen some rumors and eludes on assorted web pages that Guzzi is thinking 1400 for the Norge in 2009? Does anyone have any deeper info. I'm seriously considering selling a couple of my bikes to get the Norge, but if there is some truth to the 1400 engine going into it, I would wait on that. Thoughts? Speculation? Proverbs? Celestial Inspirations? Miles

Realizing that Dyno results vary, and runs vary based on Temperature and other atmospherics... that does seem a bit low. I have a Stucci crossover with FBF CF Cans, PCIII and open airbox with K&N and getting 82.37 max hp - 67.18 max torque. http://www.baronaudio.com/lemans/

I haven't been on the forums in awhile, but this thread caught my eye. I'm surprised no one has mentioned this, but check your intake manifold. Especially the rubber bits. If you have the hose that connects the left and right side, check it. AN intermittent air leak will wreak havok on your day. I had a VERY similar problem as you with the "ok" running, but as soon as I changed anything, it went from "ok" to "WTF!!!!!" When I finally took a step-by-step look at things, one of my carbs wasn't fully seated into the intake. I bought a cheapo set of merc tubes... best $35.00 I've spent on a tool. I'm guessing my blog of my tuning procedure is still around, as well as others. It's a lot easier to do than it is to write about.

Well I did a little research and it looks like some good choices are... dayco # 80404 Goodyear Ford hose #63318 Napa Item#: NBH10912 Based on all the comments I could find since 2006, all have a little better life expectancy than the Guzzi part, and are less expencive. Off to the NAPA store. (Lisa said I could NOT swipe the one out of her truck.... no sense of humor that woman.)