Lex
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Posts posted by Lex
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One possible problem with the clip-on risers would be that the V11 parts are 22mm, not 7/8". The two sizes are really close but (IIRC) 7/8" is very slightly larger than 22mm and you might not get a good "grip" on the stub of the original bar.
The second problem, at least for me, would be cutting my stock bars. Given Guzzi parts prices (high) and delivery times (long) you better be sure you are not going to go back.
All that said this sounds like a good idea, if he can make it possible to go back and forth you could have the ability to quickly convert from normal to touring mode. To me the ideal version of this would come with a small stub built in. That would allow you to put the risers on and remove them in a few minutes without disturbing the controls mounted on the original bar.
Lex
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Steve,
You may find this helpful, follow the link below:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/CCItal...ianBikes/files/
Then select Guzzi Modifications & Maintenance
Then select V11ValvesTourque.html
Let me know what you think,
Lex
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dlaing,
Inspiring? Jeez, lets not get carried away. I was going for helpful.
I build a barrier for my V11 after Tam and few others reported water coming in the transmission breather. I had to ride in a light rain/ deep puddles last week and was pretty happy with how clean the area in front of the tire was after the ride. BTW, thanks for the tip on silicon, I'll try that. Follow the link below for a picture of what I built. I'm a few light years behind the guy who makes seats for V11 in fiberglass skills but it works and is invisible unless you are willing to get down on your hands and knees to find it.
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/CCItal...nnerFenderD.JPG
Mike,
Isn't LE unimpressive? Hard to believe all the good work that comes out of that hole-in-the-wall. Good luck on your work.
Cheers,
Lex
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Dlaing,
I got a re-valve, a spring, and the spacer for my money. At my level of riding ability the re-worked Sachs shock is more than acceptable. I'm pretty happy overall, in my mind I got the same or very nearly the same performance as a premium shock for about 1/2 the price. It may be that a more talented rider would find an Ohlins or Penske markedly better, I can only speak from my own POV.
I (like Mike S.) am a little concerned about the lack of parts for the shock. I guess I'm hoping that by the time I need a new seal a way to get parts for the Sachs/ Boge products will be found. In my opinion, there are three reasons to go for the high end shock, parts availability, a remote pre-load adjuster and "cool factor". I have my fingers crossed on the first, can live W/O the second and don't care about the third. Again, that is from the POV of a 47 year-old semi-quick rider, a younger, braver or more talented rider might feel differently.
Mike,
I don't know enough to say anything with confidence but I agree with what Cycle world said. My understand is that even with the clever "parallelogram" rear suspension the longer the swing arm the better. I'd add the final drive is really heavy and a progressive linkage would also probably be an improvement. When I look at picture of the MGS01 I am drawn to the swing arm. I'll never own an MGS01 (I'm not up for full-on sport bikes; I'm more of a sporty touring) but I would be very pleased if the swingarm/ rear suspension appeared on a future V11 to replace the antiquated ( basically a mid-seventies Yamaha monoshock) design on the current bikes. The new layout should be a huge improvement; easier shock access, it frees up space that could be used to make the air box and/ or the gas tank bigger, should lower the C of G and I'm sure a few other things I'm forgetting.
In my dreams Guzzi releases the 2004 V11 LeMans with the MSG01 rear end and bunch of quality improvements and announces the 2004 and 1/2 SP IV based on the new LeMans but with a bit less "committed" riding position, slightly bigger fairing, a bigger alternator, better passenger seat and lower mufflers with a nice set of hard bags. Then I could sell my BMW and enjoy that fine Guzzi motor on long rides with my wife. Besides, I'd love to walk into my garage and see my V11 next to an equality pretty but slightly more voluptuous SP IV.
Lex
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Mike,
Re: the Sacks shock, I've got mine working pretty well (post LE modifications) at this point. I actually went for a ride Sunday and didn't adjust the shock afterwards, a good sign. Was it LE who said they might have a problem?
Just Curious,
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Just a quick note. I got a chance to go for a long ride today. I rode one of my favorite test roads, Santa Rosa Creek (AKA SRC in the slick paper US cycle magazines) and put the bike to a more thorough test. I now feel much more confident about what I said in my post. I realized about 2/3 of the way down the road I was not thinking about the chassis, just assuming it would do its job.
Cheers,
Lex
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A report from my riding my V11 with Lindeman modified suspension
Caveats:
Just to be clear, I have played with suspension more than most but I am not an expert, just a well-informed amateur. Also, I wish I had more time to put miles on the bike before making this report but that isn’t going to happen. What is below is based on a little over thirty miles of four-lane freeway and tight, bumpy two-lane. I was not able to get far enough away from what passes for urban area around here and the resulting concentration of (ahem) local government representatives to do any high speed testing. On the plus side, the almost total lack of maintenance work by the local government means I was in a good environment to test suspension.
What I did find is vastly better bump control and ride. On the freeway the bike is nearly “plush”, something you could not say about the stock bike. On the back roads I concentrated on two glaring faults in the stock bike, bottoming while braking in bumps and the rear wheel coming completely off the ground while riding over sharp bumps or powering out of bumpy corners. After a little testing and a few adjustment (I took out two clicks of compression damping in the forks and four from the shock) I feel the fork is just about perfect, an Ohlins might be better but not by a large margin. The rear is not quite as rosy but is still much improved. There is still some harshness in the rear end; I can’t say whether this is from the Sachs shock (i.e. would it be better with an Ohlins or Penske) or if the poor design (short swing arm, heavy final drive, no rising rate shock linkage) is the limiting factor. Based on what I have learned I would say V11 owners, other than those lucky/ rich enough have Ohlins from the factory, have several ways to go.
If price is no object, have your forks re-sprung and valved and put a Penske or Ohlins on the back. Cost ~$1100 to $1400
If price is an object but you have some cash, have your forks and shock re-sprung and valved by a good suspension tuner. $750 or less
If price is a major object but you have a little cash, get some stiffer fork springs and replace your stock 10 Wt. fork oil with 5 or 7.5 Wt ($120) and have your shock re-sprung and valved ($150 to $250). From what Mike said about the WP you might not need a spring; that would save you about $100. I don’t know what fork spring rate would work for most people, all I can suggest is working with someone who knows the bikes and using what they recommend. Cost ~$370 (shock re-valve and spring) or $270 (re-valve shock)
Good luck.
Lex
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Docc,
You got lucky, I wish my bike had a WP. The Sachs is an oddball, one of the guys at LE commented that they might have trouble getting parts, specifically the main seal, for my shock.
Also, the WP is a known quantity, any good suspension shop will be able to set it up with minimum of experimentation.
I can't give you a number but I believe the shock spring is appropriate for a light or very light rider. I'd guess not much over 150 LB/ 68 Kg in riding gear. At least that is possible, the fork springs aren't even appropriate for the bike W/O a rider.
Lex
PS. I forgot to add, the spring on my shock is now nice Italian red and matches the frame. You'd think I planned it that way.
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OK, the time is here, I can stop having waking nightmares every time I walk in my garage; I just finished putting my Goose it back together. I don’t want to waste space and bandwidth sending another picture but please mentally replace the scary picture of my stripped bike I posted a week ago with a picture of a 2001 Silver V11 Sport and a very happy owner to this post. I’m going out for a ride and will report back with how it works over the road today or tomorrow. In the interim, here is the static info:
Cost: $744.65 OTD Of that total the fork was $426, the rest the shock plus $18.05 tax on the springs and shock oil.
That is worst case, I needed three springs, the re-valve and a spacer made for the shock spring as the correct weight spring was not available in the length the Moto Guzzi fits to the stock (Sachs, not Boge as said in an earlier post) shock.
Time: 22 days. Again, this was worst case. My wife was going to the area and she was kind enough to drop the stuff off at LE. This saved me the cost and fear of damage that goes with sending my very expensive and delicate parts as freight but it also meant my parts set for a while before the work started. I think the turnaround would be a lot less if you made an appointment and didn’t drop off your parts until close to the starting date.
Regarding Al’s comment about customer service, I guess it depends on how you look at things. LE runs like an old fashion bike shop, if my stuff is waiting for work and somebody comes in with an urgent problem his bike may well be pushed in front of mine. I can’t say I am thrilled but I have developed enough trust with LE over the years to not get highly stressed over it. On the same note, if anybody is planning to deliver your stuff the LE, be prepared to be totally under whelmed with the shop. The space is in a nondescript light industrial strip mall. The office looks like it hasn’t been cleaned in years, the only hint of what is going on (besides a wooden rack with more suspension parts than the Showa factory) are posters autographed by the people LE has or is working with. OTOH, the back part of the space is very cool, lots of expensive tools and other gear head pornography.
What was done: Jim described the fork spring as “Much too soft with too much preload”. He gets the mumbles when you get specific about the damping (he is not dumb enough to give away the knowledge he has worked so hard to gain) but I think he softened the high-speed compression and stiffened the low speed. Pretty much the same changes for the shock but the spring was not as far off, for a normal size person it might be acceptable.
If anybody cares, my report that Jim Lindeman broke his collarbone was incorrect, it was “Josh the Shock Guy” who crashed his dirt bike and caused some delay.
For more info, http://www.le-suspension.com/index.html#
More after I go for a ride,
Lex
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Jack,
Pretty much normal, my bike sits. The forks and shocks may be done tomorrow. I've used LE a lot in the past, I'm not surprised at the delay. They seem to make promises figuring they can make a date and then some racer comes in with "I gotta have this fixed by Friday so I can go to the ______ and race" and street stuff gets pushed back.
I had a talk with Jim Monday, I hope I whined enough to make the Friday completion date. More when there is something to say,
Lex
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My forks and shock are supposed to be done today. I should get them in my hands and the bike back on the road next weekend.
LE will be replacing all the springs, they described them as too light for an average rider, much less one that weighs 260#.
I would have one comment on the docc's post. I would absolutely not put heavier oil in the forks, at least not on the compression side. My experience and what I have been told by LE is exactly the opposite, stiffer springs and less damping is what the forks need.
LE did the same thing to the shock on my K1200LT. The improvement was amazing, much better ride and better handling. Even with the pre-load maxed I was dragging things at the posted speed limit stock, after the work I never drag anything. Before the work the bike was limited to the kind of speeds people think luxury touring bike are ridden, after the work I am able to use all of the BT020 tires and even, on occasion, do a "blackie" out of low speed corners. All this with the CD player going.
I'm hoping the work on the V11 will be similar if not as dramatic. Lex
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Rus,
At those standard cables and hoses? If so the picture my have cost me a bunch (say about $235 plus shipping ;-) of bucks. That looks comfy. I was afraid the Verlicchis would be even wider than the stock (too wide, in my opinion) bars but it look like you were able to move them behind the top clamp and make them about 2" narrower than stock, just about what I want to do.
Thanks for the pic,
Lex
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As an alternative to Carl's plastic trays I have used aluminum foil (some times doubled or quadrupled for strength/ stiffness) as a way to route draining oil around frame tubes and exhaust pipes. The nice thing about the foil is that it can be shaped to fit in almost any space. I find my the foil lasts pretty much forever but if it is damaged a replacement is as close as the kitchen.
Just another option,
Lex
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Well folks, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. My forks and shocks will be at LE tomorrow. Expect a report in two to three weeks.
Lex
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Dlaing,
As they say, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. If this is a problem with V11s with the smaller axle and not the later bikes it would be hard to argue against the idea the larger axle fixed a problem.
The first thing I would like to do is have a poll, we have enough people on this list to find out if this problem is common or not. I think the poll need to be by chassis group, 2001 and earlier, 2002 and 2003 since Guzzi has made three versions of the chassis. I would also limit the responders to people who have worn out at least one set of tires. Something like:
My early V11 wears one side of the tire (front, rear or both) faster than the other:
My early V11 wears both sides of the tire at the same rate:
My 2002 V11 wears one side of the tire (front, rear or both) faster than the other:
My 2002 V11 wears both sides of the tire at the same rate:
My 2003 V11 wears one side of the tire (front, rear or both) faster than the other:
My 2003 V11 wears both sides of the tire at the same rate:
Do you think this would be a good idea? We may not get enough 2003s to get a valid sample but there are plenty of the older bikes on this list. If the tire wear is not common you can look for a problem (a missing, extra or incorrectly positioned wheel spacer* or a manufacturing error) leading to a wheel alignment problem on your bike. An unlikely but possible answer (if this has only happen with one tire) is also a bad tire. If the problem is common we can all look for a solution and, hopefully, one of us will find an answer and share it with the group.
Lex
* I found a spacer (right side between the final drive and swing arm, about 2 MM think) on my bike that is not in the drawing in the factory manual but looks like it is supposed to be there. You gotta' love the Italians. ;-)
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I’ve enjoyed reading the others so here is a bio of one of the newer members.
I was born almost 47 years ago in central California. Unlike the very worldly folks here I have never lived outside my home state (California) but it is a large state. I got my first bike (a Honda Trail 90) when I was thirteen. My parents had a small weekend place (a trailer really) in the Sierras and let me bring the mighty 90 with me most weekends. I rode the poor bike until the bottom of the knobby tires looked like road racing slicks. The 90 led to a ’63 BSA 350, a ’70 Honda SL350, an R5 (350 Yamaha), RD 350 Yamaha, RD400 Yamaha, and a Honda 500-4 (final version had hi-compression 591 CC pistons, a bumpy cam, close ratio gearbox, pipe, big carbs, mag wheels and more). The first two Yamahas and the Honda 500 did duty on the track as I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt that I am not fast enough to win road races. Actually, I wasn’t even fast enough to keep from getting lapped in 25-mile sprint race but I had a lot of fun and met some wonderful people. After I got back on the street I had an SR500 and an XV920RH (the chain drive version).
The 920 was a major POS, which lead me to BMWs. Starting with an ’83 R65 that my wife bought me as a Christmas present through a K75S, R100GS, R1100RS, R1100GS, K1200LT and a R100R. During this time my wife had an R65LS, two R100GSs, an R80 w/ 1000CC pistons and an R1100R. Heath problems forced her to stop riding and lead to the K1200LT, a monster but a great two-up bike. Continuing frustration with the horrible engineering on late model BMWs caused me to looks around for a new brand of bike. I tried a Ducati Monster but, while I really enjoyed the bike, it never “clicked”.
Last fall I met a fellow with a Guzzi and that brought back memories of Ambassadors and (especially) V7s when I was younger. Talking to Tam got him looking into Guzzis and the next thing I knew he bought one. I went to San Francisco; test-drove a Le Mans and a ’03 Naked fell in love. The centerpiece of my garage is now my beautiful silver V11 Sport. The bike is fun to look at, fun to work on and way fun to ride. If they had a bigger alternator I’d swap the LT for a Tonti frame for two-up duty tomorrow.
On the personal side I have been married for almost 23 years, we have no kids but two goofy dogs. I worked in the high tech world for a long time, finishing with six years at Cisco Systems, two representing another company, two on the campus and two telecommuting from my home on the California coast. I took a year off from high tech twelve years ago and spent a year working at a BMW shop. I left Cisco a year and a half ago and am now trying to figure out what my next career will be. Besides motorcycles I also enjoy sea kayaking and scuba diving.
I’ve learned a lot and enjoyed reading the other folks adventures and misadventures. The thread about the guy who tried to hide his bike from his wife makes me appreciate my wife.
Cheers,
Lex
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I'll be honest and admit my first responce was YOU DID WHAT!? but after looking at the pictures I'd have to say this is the best looking hard bag set-up I've seen on V11 Sport/ Le Mans. The rounded shape of the bags fit the bike really well.
Nice work,
Lex
PS On most BMWs the cut out on the bottom of the right bag is for the final drive.
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Dlaing,
All bikes in countries that drive to the right wear the left side of the tire faster. In the left side drive countries the right side wears faster. This is caused by road crown (the curvature of the road to help water run off) not the front end design.
It is possible that there is a misalignment in some or all V11s, has anybody put one on a Computrack or similar alignment tool? As far as damping causing an uneven wear problem I can't see how it would. All the damping does is slow (slightly on compression, more on rebound) the fork movement. The springs and hard parts (frame, forks, bearings, spacers, etc.) locate the wheels. When you are riding down the road you could drain the fork oil (i.e. eliminate damping) and you wouldn't know it until you hit bump or hole.
Above are facts, as an opinion I'd guess you couldn't tell the damping adjustment is working be cause it isn't that strong at the speeds we puny humans can create. Damping increases to the square of speed increases. If it was strong enough to change the speed the fork extends (with the springs in them) at speeds we can create it would be pretty much rock solid at road speeds. Just a guess, I could be wrong. Have you tried making the adjustments while riding the bike? My adjusters make some difference, not enough, but some.
Lex
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Jack,
If it helps at all from what I've seen Guzzi is hardly alone in specifying too much compression damping. I guess everybody uses the same system; test riders who are ex-racers and weigh 130 pound testing on billiard table smooth race tracks. For them I'm sure the set-up is perfect. For us, ahem, slight larger and slower folks on roads "maintained" (I use quotes 'cause if I maintained my house like that I'd live in a tent by now) by the local government it is not ideal.
Al,
Thanks for talking to Jim. I've personally had him work on several shocks (but never forks) and found his estimates on correct spring and damping set-up to be close enough to perfect the I have never needed any re-work. I also recommended him to lots of people when I worked at a motorcycle shop, I never heard any complaints about his work. He doesn't undercharge for his tuning skills but compared to buying new parts I guess he is reasonable.
For folks who do not live in the SF Bay area, I'd suggest finding out who the local racers use. That is how I got hooked up with Jim, long ago I was a (slow-ish) road racer and I found Jim was pretty much "The Man" and everybody used him. Given that the AMF North's only track at that time was Sears Point and back then "The Point" looked like it was maintained by Cal-Trans good suspension tuning was very important. I'd be willing to bet there is a guy like Jim in any area that has a racing (road or dirt) community. Just be sure the person you talk to understand what kind of riding you do, a full race set-up would not be the best solution on the street. If you don't have one locally I guess UPS could be the solution.
Cheers,
Lex
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I’ve done a fair amount of work with shocks and forks over the last 30 years. In my opinion an important point that Tam made is being missed. A good suspension shop can vastly improve your existing shock. As an example I had the Showa shock on my K1200 re-sprung and valved by Lindaman Engineering, the difference is amazing. It will never be as good as a well set-up Ohlins (or Fox or WP) but it rides much better, never bottoms and keeps the wheel on the ground even when running hard on very bumpy roads. The spring BMW put on the shock was so far off Jim (Lindaman) actually laughed when he look at it. He put on a spring roughly 20% stiffer, softened the damping and I got a better ride and better handling. My shock cost $250 (I needed a new spring and a custom made spacer) that is about 1/3 the cost of an Ohlins. Add the ideas Ken Zeller suggested for the forks and I’d bet you could have a great ride and much better handling for around $400 (if you do the labor) that is less than the price of a mediocre rear shock.
A note to Al, the asymmetry in the Marzocchi fork is not an accident. Marzocchi has been building forks with compression on one side and rebound on the other for at least twenty years. I’m not enough of an expert to make absolute statements but I doubt that the relatively minor forces of damping are going to flex a USD fork enough to matter to us on the street. For the folks who like to tinker the Marzocchi design is fun, you can make compression or rebound stiffer or softer by changing the oil on that side. This is important; the adjustments on forks and shocks only affect the shock (or fork) at low speeds. When the wheel is running over sharp bumps at speed the damping is all from the washer stacks, the orifices the “clickers” adjust are overwhelmed. This means changing the viscosity of the oil will have much more effect than the adjusters.
Regarding Jack Price’s comment about the Ohlins used on the Scura Vs. the one he bought from Mr. Ed’s Moto. My guess (and it would be guess) is that the biggest difference between the shock Jack bought and the one on the Scura is the spring and the damping rates, not the quality of the shock. Several years ago I put an Ohlins on my R100GS. The result was about what the magazines say about the Scura, it pretty much sucked. Having used Fox shocks for years I couldn’t figure out why anybody would use a POS Ohlins. I took it to (surprise!) Jim Lindaman and had it re-valved. The change was night and day, from harsh and bouncy to smooth and very well controlled, the equal of my Fox shocks.
Why does the Scura come with great suspension set up so badly? Why was my first Ohlins so badly set up? Why was the shock on my K1200 so screwed up? Beats me. All I know is badly set up suspension must be common or Lindaman (and the guy at Aftershocks, the guys at Race Tech and a few hundred other folks around the US) would be out of a job. As a side note, Dave Searle’s column in MCN this month is about getting the suspension on a Ducati Monster to work properly. The funny part is how the suspension got so screwed up; the guys at Ducati “fixed” it for him.
Sorry this is so long, I love playing with suspension and I’m afraid I’ve rambled at bit.
Cheers,
Lex
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OK, I nominate myself for the Homer Simpson award for the day. I just slapped my forehead and said "Dhhooo!".
I changed the set-up, anybody can now view the pictures on CCIB.
Lex
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I thought I was, wrong again?
Lex
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Second attempt to attach pic.
If this fails please go the CCIB site in my sig. There is a picture in the modification album under the "Photos" section.
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Tam, Al,
Since I have an Airhead and a K-bike in the garage at this time I checked both. First, the K-bike's gearbox breather is very well hidden, I think I've seen it in the past, IIRC; it looks much like the breather on the V11. The final drive breather on both bikes is about as simple as it could be, a hollow steel piece threads into the housing and a black, plastic cap covers the hole in the top. A small (maybe 1/16"/ 1.5 MM) hole in the plastic cap allows air in and out of the breather. The gearbox breather on the airhead is even less sophisticated; the bolt that attaches the ground strap from the battery is hollow.
The above (I think) supports my theory that the problem is not the breather; it is the lack of protection from real wheel spray. I was amazed when, after Tam found water in his gear lube, I found nothing between the front of rear wheel and the rest of the bike. Given the lack of problems with BMW and the simple design of their breathers I'd say the problem is large amounts of water, moving a pretty high speed, being thrown at the breathers in wet conditions. My solution was to make and mount a simple barrier to the upright part of the swing arm. This should protect the transmission breather, the clutch slave cylinder, the back of the frame and a bunch of other stuff I’d rather not see bathed in high speed streams of water and road crud.
I’ve attached a picture of my solution. I just made a piece of fiberglass to fit in the triangle formed by the swing arm upright and attached it with plastic ties. I’ve only ridden the bike on a moderately wet day (a few deep puddles) since I built the barrier so I can’t be positive it works but I believe this is a good solution to several problems caused by Moto Guzzi’s poor design, time will tell. If anyone cares to copy this design I’d suggest a piece of ABS (or similar plastic) or rubber instead of making a part from fiberglass, I did it this way because I had some materials left over from a repair to my kayak.
One last thought, I made the barrier flexible and weak enough to be crushed if it ever comes loose and get caught in the rear wheel. I’d rather make a new one than have it jam my wheel. Been there, done that (broken chain caught between swing arm and wheel) DO NOT recommend it.
JMHO,
Lex
More on raising handlebars
in How to...
Posted
Bill,
Guzzis are about customizing, I've started to think of my bike as a kit that was just assembled to make it easier to ship. Some people raise the bars, some lower them. Paul M. is building a Ducati that looks like a Moto Guzzi.
As for Americans raising the bars, at least one reason Americans tend to look into higher bars is that we go to jail for speeds you might think are normal. Another is that we ride a long ways, it is about the same distance from San Diego to Oregon as from London to Guzzi HQ. You call it a continent, we call it a state. And yes, a diet rich in pizza and 'burgers doesn't help.
Cheers,
Lex (who is happy with the stock bars)