Lex
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Posts posted by Lex
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I had an amazing number of things fall off my 2001 V11 Sport from new. By this time I had most of the bike apart and nearly everything has been torqued properly and thread locker used. No problem with anything I've worked on, just the stuff the factory never tightened properly.
A few hints for anybody who hasn't made as many mistakes* as me. The parts must be clean, smooth and screw together will minimal force or you torque wrench will give you a false reading. Do not be shy with the loc-tite.
As an illustration of how much is enough, I work in place where parts destined for military and aviation use are assembled. Many of these parts are put on a three axis vibration table for acceptance testing. Then the parts are put in thing like tanks and aircraft that shake worse than a new Guzzi. Our assemblers know how to build parts that can take vibration. The instructions for using loc-tite show the entire threaded area covered with the blue goo.
I hope this helps,
Lex
*Experience is a dear school but a fool will keep no other (B. Franklin), just call me fool.
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baldini :
Mixing measurments adds to the confusion. Why front in metric, rear in lb?
Sheer laziness. That is how the boxes that my parts came in were marked.
Thanks for the metric cross over.ratchethack
Yup, the design is pretty old and you can't make it modern. But, for some reason, it is a huge amount of fun.
I know some of those guys that never change anything myself. It doesn't really bother except the ones who can also out ride me.
Seriously, part of the reason I have had bikes for thirty-five years is that I like working on them. So far the Goose has been a real pleasure to work on. I look at and work on my K1200LT and I end up thinking seriously about paying someone to do the work or just selling the stupid thing. With my V11 I enjoy the time I spend on the bike. I also like going for a ride and feeling a real improvement. I can't give myself more riding talent and my fear threshold gets lower every year but I can make the bike work better and slow my descent into cruiser riding old age, I hope.
Good luck with your experiments,
Lex
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First, I have to say to ratchethack that I understand his confusion. How something as simple as a spring can be this counter intuitive is beyond my ability to understand. A stiffer spring makes it ride better? Doesn't seem right, does it? I have an idea of why this is true but it is just an idea, I can't prove any of it. Beside bottoming (soft springs) I think some of the harshness may be the shock topping. With that much pre-load the shock is still under a great deal of spring pressure when fully extended. Add the weight of the Guzzi final drive and once the axle starts its downward movement, pushed along by the spring, it will take a LOT of damping to slow it down. Add the fact that the Guzzi damping curve was described by a expert of my acquaintance as "not enough in the middle and too much at both ends" and I think we may have a possible explanation.
Anyway, I think the idea that multi adjustable suspension is a cop out is a going a little too far. I would whole heartedly agree with the statement that no amount of adjustability will fix badly set-up suspension. If the spring rate is wrong you are screwed, nothing will fix the problem. If the damping is way off the twidly little knobs and rotating collars may mask the problem but they will not cure them. OTOH, if the spring and damping is well set-up for an average rider a little more or less pre-load or a little more or less damping can really help you get the bike just right for your style. Those of us in the 90th percentile (upper or lower ;-) for weight might have to do some work but most of you should be able to find a setting that works. If I had to chose I'd take a bike with well sorted suspension and no adjustment but shock pre-load over a mess like my 2001 V11 Sport. OTOH, my first choice would still be a well set-up bike with as much adjustment as I can get.
Finally springs: For the forks the consensuses seems to be between 0.9 (light to average) and 1.1 Kg/ Cm (big 'un or very aggressive). As I said, mine are 1.05, that works well for this large, semi agressive rider. I'm not as sure about the rear. I know my 550 In/ Lb is too stiff for most, I think Mike liked a 500 In/ Lb but he is heavier than ratchethack, IIRC. As to where, I'd try locally first. If that dosn't work you can always try Race tech or LE.
Good luck,
Lex
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I have to agree with Mike the 30% is too much sag for a sporting bike.
I have to say (for the hundredth time...) that setting pre-load doesn't change the spring rate. How much pre-load did it take to get your sag set? If it is more than 5 - 7 MM (especially given your large amount of sag) your spring it too soft. The correct spring will give you a better ride (excessive pre-load makes the ride feel stiff) and more ground clearance. The only down side to replacing the rear spring is realizing your front springs are also too soft.
My bike has much stiffer than stock springs. I think the stock fork springs are about 0.6 Kg/ Cm, mine are 1.05 Kg/ Cm I don't know the stock rear spring but I'd guess it is in the range of 400 to 450 In/ Lb, my rear spring's rate is 550 In/ Lb. Don't worry about the metric Vs. imperial measurements, look at the percentage change.
I got a chance to swap bikes with a friend with a stone stock but carefully adjusted bike just like mine. My friend is much lighter than me (nearly 100 pounds/ 45 Kg) and both of us noted my bike rides as well as his. After a few miles of riding on a flat, straight road I was thinking the stock suspension wasn't so bad. The stock bike feels like a Cadillac, sort of "floaty" but not bad. My bike feels like a Porsche, it lets you know you hit a bump but there is no (front)/ little (rear) shock transmitted to the rider. We turned off onto a bumpy, twisty road and I changed my mind about the stock bike quickly. The amount of dive under braking and spring compression while cornering was scary. Changing springs will not help the lack of damping but at least your bike will have some travel left to deal with bumps under braking and it will retain the correct geometry and have much more ground clearance while cornering.
The right springs for your bike will be an improvement in every way, better ride, better handling, more ground clearance. Also, the your wallet will be lighter, improving all areas of performance. ;-)
Lex
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Gee, given my gentle typo I'm surprised nobody noted my "harsh in the rear" comment.
OK, so spelling isn't my best area...
Lex
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Wow, everybody from 1100Sport to this post: Good stuff! Especially both of 1100Sport's posts.
I think there may be one more issue unique to the V11. Am I correct in recalling the V11 also caries a good deal less rake and trail the earlier spine frames? A fair frame with more rake, lets say a "classic" number like 28 degrees, is going to be a lot more stable than the same frame (or even one with less rigidity based on 11 Sport's post) with a modern number like 24 degrees.
One side note on the weight distribution issue. My all time high mileage bike was my '88 R100GS. Ugly as sin but it did everything well, even single track if you were careful. We used to go down to an (ahem) un-patrolled road in southeastern California and do top speed runs. Lots of fun, slipstreaming each other on a long (20 miles) straight section. Anyway, that bike ALWAYS had a genital high speed weave. Not bad but it got a little scary in the bumps. I finally cured the problem. A very high tech solution, I bought a pair of "tank panniers" (like soft saddle bags but go over the front of the tank) and put heavy stuff like water in them. Too bad that will not work on the Goose, the engine is in the way.
FWIW, I don't do bonsai high speed cornering these days but I am still dumb enough to go over 100 MPH (160 KPH) in a straight line or through genital bends. My bike, with its re-sprung and re-valved stock suspension, no longer feels nervous. This is all pretty subjective but the only complaint I have with the chassis now is a little harshness in the rear. I think this is inherent in the poor rear end design although a really high end shock might be an improvement.
Anyway, great posts, I know the gearbox was an important part of the frame but I didn't know the 6-speeder was less rigid than the old 'box.
Lex
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Northend and Docc have it right, the big problem is with the operators, I'm just another example.
Seriously, the spine frame has some pretty basic problems. From front to back: the weight is biased toward the rear (and the very heavy engine can't be moved forward because of the location of the alternator), the rear suspension is very primitive; both bulky and the geometry seem to have a falling rate (the newer stuff isn't as progressive as it was when linkages first came out but it still "stiffens" as the shock is compressed), the swingarm is too short and the final drive is heavy, even by drive shaft standards. There have been allegation the fame and swing arm flex in the wrong directions but I can't confirm that. Through in mediocre quality suspension parts and poorly selected spring and damping and things can get interesting. In short, this is a fine 1980's chassis, it falls a bit short by modern standards.
Given that the Tonti has pretty much the same problems it is surprising to hear an unfavorable comparison. That would lead me to think you might find some improvement with suspension work. I'd start with springs (0.9 or 1.05 Kg/ cm in the front, maybe 500 In/Lb in the rear) and sort out the preload. That if fairly cheap ($200 - $250 USD) and easy.
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Assuming you have at least gotten the basics (i.e. springs and pre-load) sorted you might find some help with damping (adjustments, re-valving or replacement) or you may have found the early spine frame's limit. I haven't experienced this (hard cornering at 90+ MPH on bumpy roads somehow fell off my do-to list ) so I can't really make a useful suggestion for a cure but I will throw our a pearl of wisdom I learned on the race track: If the back end misbehaves, work on the front and vice versa.
Whatever, I repeat my opinion that the V11 is a wonderful sporty bike and a great sport touring bike but both the engine and chassis are anachronism if you use it as a modern sport bike. Between the fixable poor stock suspension (rework or replacement) and the chassis's inherent flaws (I will not go into them here, they have been well covered in earlier posts) it seems like you are trying to make an apple into an orange. Don't let me stop anybody from trying, I could be wrong and it is interesting to watch, but I can't see anything making a spine frame into a CBR1000RR. Watching "the boys" in AMA formula extreme stand their bikes on the nose breaking from 199 MPH (~ 320 KPH) and slide their basically stock bikes into and out of a bumpy, 150 MPH (240 KPH) corner at Brainerd yesterday reminded me how far we've come.
I love my Goose and enjoy the hell out of it but I kind of like the fact that it has limits, how do you know you are going fast on the new supersports*? My best speed wouldn't even get the shock warm.
Lex
*Maybe seeing the fine the judge gives you?
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Another happy Staintune rider. I've had mine about six months. Seem to be well made, good looks, nice sound, generally pretty happy with them. My only negative is that they are a bit pricey, it least in the US.
Lex
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Having been the victim of DOT 5 (water in the caliper, rust, locked brake) I'll second the note of caution. This was a while ago, maybe the new stuff is better but I use DOT 4 and change it when, as a very good mechanic put it, "it doesn't look like water". Brake fluid is cheap, easy to change* and easy to recycle.
Lex
* Unless you have a BMW with ABS II, then it is not so easy to change.
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you know its something ive said before...most STOCK bikes are
better than most can/should ride to (limit wise) on the street.
bshpilot,
And I'll say what I have said before. If you think good suspension is just about going fast you need to experience a well set up bike. A really good rider (I've been pasted by the best, including Freddie Spencer
) could go faster than me on pretty much any suspension than I could go with help from Valetino Rossi's personal suspension guru. Good street suspension rides better, lets (much) less than god-like people like me rider faster and more safely. Good suspension keeps the wheels on the ground providing three of my favorite things, acceleration, braking and cornering. Badly set-up suspension (like my 2001 Sport came with) does not. I'd be thrilled if my pockets were deep enough to go the full Ohlins route, if they were a little less deep than they are I would have at least changed the ridiculously soft springs that came on my bike. As it is I've very happy with my re-sprung and valved Marzocchi/Sachs combination.
Cheers,
Lex
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I'll second the vote for Staintunes. Very nice looks, much more production looking than most aftermarket stuff. With the touring restrictors in place they are pretty reasonable for sound. Just to give you my idea of reasonable, I didn't buy the Mistrals because I found them to be too loud. With the restrictors out they are a little quieter than new Mistrals but not a whole lot. I have my restrictors permanently installed but some might like the ability to pick your noise output on a given ride, it takes a few seconds to put them in or remove them.
Another source I found to be a bit cheaper than Kari and his rip-off team at CBT:
Lex
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Al,
FWIW, I think the ratings are a lot like the one in Scuba magazines that rate Florida as the best dive area. It is not that it is that good, it is that lot of people go to there and many haven't been to better sites. This bias the voting toward places with large populations or to places that are well known like Highway One.
Any "best roads in California" list that doesn't include one of the high passes (Tioga, Sonora, Ebbetts, Monitor, Carson) in the central Sierras is, IMHO, pretty suspect. My favorite is Sonora but another rider might like the higher speeds of Carson or the jaw dropping beauty of Tioga but, in my opinion, any of them beat 74, 36 or 58 without a fight. Angels Crest and Highway 1 depend on when you ride them, if you catch them on a low traffic day they are great, much of the time they are not.
I guess this just shows everyone has an opinion.
Lex
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Just FYI: I originally ordered my battery for the V11 from motorcyclebatteriesusa.com. They let me order it without telling me they were out of stock and then didn't exactly rush to tell me what was going on when I asked directly. I wound up not having the battery a week later with only vague promises of when it would arrive.
I canceled and reordered from Westco and my bike was back on the road in three days. Maybe I just caught them on a bad day but motorcyclebatteriesusa.com would not be my first choice for any future battery needs. I just ordered a battery from Westco for my K1200 and it also arrived quickly.
YMMV,
Lex
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The front of the battery cage can be moved under the frame mount ( rather than on top). This requires rounding the front outside corners of the cage with a grinder or file. This moves the battery down about 1/4".
Docc, thank for the post. On my bike the nuts that accept the battery box mounting bolts are welded to the frame. It looks like another case of Moto Guzzi consistency being an oxymoron. I wish I had the option to lower the battery this way, it looks like a good idea. That Moto Guzzi personality thing again.
Cheers,
Lex
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My battery died a few months ago. It seem Hawker doesn't make a battery for the Spine Frame. I wound up with a Wesco. With shipping, tax and all it was a little less than the $100 figure. So far so good with the battery but a few months isn't much of a test. I got mine from Westco.
Based on jrt's post I pulled the battery to see if I could lower it as I was seeing light contact between the front of the battery and (Corbin) seat pan. I couldn't see any way to lower the front but I did figure out (FINALLY) why the rubber vibration mat under the battery never seemed to fit properly.
The mat has ribs on the bottom that look like they intended to go around part of the battery box and hold the mat in place. Unfortunately, the ribs are do not work in the battery box Guzzi put in my 2001 V11 Sport. A few second with a pair of diagonal cutters removed about half the length of two of the ribs. Now the mat fits properly and my battery is about 1/8" (~3 MM) lower. I wonder if the cracked cases were from improper charging or the battery sitting higher than it should or both. This might be something for Spine Frame owners to check.
Cheers,
Lex
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Flawless Dutch ... Amazing! I really appreciate that.
Jaap,
I have a new customer in Holland (Thomson TV cameras) and my contact has been teaching me a few words of Dutch between the business conversations. I though you might enjoy a little Dutch from one of the "language challenged" Americans.
The bad news is that I can't pronounce any of it properly but one thing at a time... Maybe by the time I get over to watch the TT (given the Euro/ USD exchange rate this will not be soon) I'll at least be able to say a few simple things.
Cheers,
Lex
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Pixed fer yictures...
Beste Jaap,
Bedankt,
Groeten,
Lex
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Panamint Valley over look
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Sunrise Sunday, Aldo packing his bike.
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Lake Isabella
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Another reminder thant free stuff is worth what it costs. I need to get over my cheapness and get a real web site. I'll have to upload the pics one post at a time.
More below
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Who makes the converti-bars and what price?
Can you keep the standard hydraulic lines or do they need replacing?
It looks easer than drilling the top yolk and fitting a set ao bars.
Feildsheer,
The nice thing about the Convertibars is the adjustability. The bars themselves offer pretty much unlimited adjustability. My personal "Holy Grail" of riding positions is the R90S, low enough for good road feel and high enough that I can spend a long day on the bike and still get off with a smile. I have my 'bars very close the that positions nearly 3" (75 MM) closer to me and slightly higher, see the picture of my bike above. You can also drop the bars about 2" (~50 MM) lower than stock or nearly anything in-between. If you set things up correctly (almost certainly requiring new hydraulic hoses) you can also change the position from one extreme to the other in under a minute.
It sounds like you will need new hydraulic lines in any case if you have a 2002 or later, the additional fork leg height of the "above the triple clamp" clip-ons requires makes the stock hoses just a bit too short.
I chose this option over drilling the top clamp for the ease and the fact that I can make my bike stock again should I want to sell it or whatever. As a personal, subjective opinion I find the ConvertiBars with the Napoleon mirrors and heavy Throttlemister end weights has reduced the famous V11 handlebar vibration to a pleasant rumble, much better than stock. I should note that with the stock mirrors it was very bad. Only Moto Guzzi could find mirrors that make the 'bars vibrate more.
You can get lots more information at:
Lex
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From my recollection of the Le Mans front end you wouldn't have any trouble getting the ConvertiBars high enough to clear the top of the forks but you would absolutely need longer clutch and brake hoses. I can't say if this would clear the fairing. I'm liking my "naked" V11 Sport more and more.
Lex
FI improvements
in How to...
Posted
Like a lot of you I am a fairly experienced rider/ amateur mechanic but I am new-ish to Guzzis. Also, I never used a Dynojet product before I bought the PC III for my 2001 V11 Sport. I've been messing with my injection based on things I've learned here, Guzziology, and a few other places. For those of you who are experts in these areas, please don't laugh too loud, you were ignorant at one time.
Here is What I've learned:
Set your TPS! You can find instructions in various places, I found the instructions in Guzziology the most useful. The TPS should read about 150 millivolts DC at closed ( zero) throttle and around 378 millivolts at the idle setting. See the instructions in the book for details. Anyway, mine was set at 80 millivolt at zero throttle, half of the correct setting! It only takes a few seconds to get it adjusted correctly.
Second, I found the instructions for setting the throttle position on the PC III. Look at the end of the PC III (serial port version) on-line training for the information. Again, what I found was way off. You see a number on the screen, this is, I assume, a digital representation of the number of millivolts coming from the TPS. At idle my "black box" was set at 25. After setting it correctly it was set at 17, almost a 33% change! Wide open throttle was nearly as dramatic, the PC III was showing 225. After resetting the position it showed 250. In other words, the PC III thought was at closed throttle when I had 25 to 33% throttle and never at more than 90% wide open throttle. The big question is how did the bike run so well up to now?
I made the above changes and took the bike for a ride. The improvement was stunning. It might not make any more power on top but it is really strong in the middle and it delivers the power much, much more smoothly and predictably. Also, in a way that is hard to define, it just ran better, especially at high RPM. Clearly, I am now getting the full benefit of the Stucchi X-pipe, Staintune mufflers and open air box.
A little more diddling...
I liked the power improvement and intake roar of removing the air-box lid but not the mechanical noise that came with it. Since I knew I was going to keep the "relived" intake I did what I almost never do and modified a standard part, the air-box lid. I drilled three large (1 1/4" (31 MM), 1" (25 MM) and 3/4" (19 MM) on each side. I have to believe this provides more air than the motor can use (a total area about three times the stock inlets and no long tubes) but having the air-box lid between me and the air cleaner has knocked the noise down a bunch, just what I wanted. Score one for dumb luck.
At the same time a found a new map on the net, at the Guzzi Tech site. I down loaded it and took my Palm along for a ride today in case I needed to go back to an older map. End result, I took a 250 mile ride today (highway 58 to beautiful Buttonwillow raceway to see my ridding buddy's son run the 125 GP class at the AFM races) and my bike ran better than it has ever run AND I got more than 5 MPG (2.1 km/L) more than I have been getting. I did a little better than 37 MPG (15.7 km/ L) in some pretty high speed riding. Score two for dumb luck and persistence. I'm still looking forward to Todd Eagan opening a branch here in SLO town (happening soon) and having a custom map made but this seems to be as good as it will get until then.
Sorry this is so long but I urge anybody who hasn't either adjusted these settings or had someone adjust them to look into this.
Very happily,
Lex