callison

Sorry Skeeve, but you've misinterpreted that one. The throttle body linkage adjusment wheel is the little white plastic thing on the threaded rod part of the linkage between the two throttle bodies. You can make the bike run really bad (or good) playing with it, but you can't make it rip the throttle from your hands. It's never perfectly in sync at all throttle positions either, so it actually might be of benefit to mke it actively adjust itself. Mechanically, it would be a bit of a problem since it moves with the linkage. And the intake vacuum? Well, you wouldn't want rapid changes here, so the vacuum ports would go through some pretty small orifices on their way to the transducer. The time constant would likely be in minutes. A lot of carb balance units, including the TwinMax'es, ship with these reducers specifically to handle the offset power pulses in the vacuum areas being measured.

A poor regulator ground, not a bad one, but one that exhibits some resistance between the voltage regulator and chassis ground will cause the regulator to reference its output higher than what it is supposed to be. The ECU has a zener or a crowbar circuit that will shunt overvoltages to ground, draw a lot of current and that will pop the fuse for protection. This is a logical possibility and one that I will have to investigate when I have the bike back together again. Right now, it's coming apart to replace the front engine case and front crankshaft seal.

No big deal. No map...

Why not go whole hog? A little servo motor hooked to the throttle body linkage ajustment wheel actively kept centered by the TwinMax output. All time real time synchronization.

I head somewhere that you have to use synthetic air up there in your tires because the natural stuff freezes...

Just for a first pass, you could hook up a TwinMax - one input in the airbox and one at ambient in a non-perturbed area and tap the meter circuit for the differential voltage and use that somehow with the ECU. I would think the output of the differential pressure sensor is far more linear than the output of an O2 sensor, but if you had a linearized O2 output from a WBO unit, you could conceivably combine the two signals with an op amp and hook the inputs up differentially, additively or subtractively with a gain compensation on one or either leg to provide some interesting output schemes to the ECU. This is getting really weird...

For Moto: What, you mean you're uneven Nah, I'm just going to defer to your obviously greater expertise and technical prowess. The "even" just means I'm not speaking for you in case your opinion were to be different. If this thread runs long enough (it must be well on its way to record length already), we might all come to a common concensus on a number of points, but I suspect that Moto's level of involvment at the pure nitty gritty level will determine the threshold. All numbers and hardware configurations aside, the guy who actually does this kind of work on a dyno is going to provide the best input, that appears to be Moto. He's also extraordinarily good at picking apart statements for misinformation (something that I seem to have more than my share of), so I'm going to just sit back and follow the thread and see where it can take me in the understanding of all of this stuff.

Good point. The frame has been powder coated so the ground points may be compromised.

The Frankenstein mix of parts that my V11 Sport consists of is now operating again. Sort of. There are teething problems, oil leaks from the 1996 front engine case and really old oil seal, oil pressure sender that isn't, neutral light that doesn't etc. These I can fix. But, there is this other problem. The ECU fuse blows when the throttle is opened a lot rapidly. It could be: 1. A wiring problem that shows up under acceleration. 2. A screwed up ECU. 3. A coil with a problem that manifests itself at higher rpm's. Before I start tearing into it to fix this problem, I'm soliciting information from the forum if anyone has experience along these lines. It's been a long time, I really enjoyed riding in the miserable fog yesterday simply because I was riding the beast again. The California is such a wimp compared to the Sport.

Despite the added expense, you might want to get the dyno stuff done before any modifications so that you have a real baseline to evaluate your modifications effectiveness from and a point to back up to if they don't prove to be in line with your desired results. This is very much like upgrading an operating system on a production computer system. The professional makes certain that he can back up to the previous known good running point in the event of an unknown that renders the upgrade unuseable. I'm sitting here with a bike with Mike Rich heads, dual plugged etc and I'm not going to put the dual plugs into operation until I resolve what the hell is wrong with the bike to begin with. Too many variables makes it nearly impossible to sort out the original problem. I really regret not putting more effort into the initial trouble shooting than to throw money at hardware upgrades in the pursuit of a better running engine. I may need to return to stock just to get back to the initial condition. I think even Moto would suggest making only one major change at a time, small steps do seem to make better progress in this arena than wholesale parts swapouts. I don't know how much Moto would charge for a completely optimized mapping on a dyno, but he evidently is very much on top of this sort of thing. That might be a better use for your initial performance monetary outlay and then start adding hardware at a later date. Just a thought... and a question. Hey Moto! Can a Dyno effectively optimise for ram air induction?

The ECU is isolated from the battery by a relay when the ignition is off. That should ease your mind a tad.

Ah, but Moto, you're doing this in a professional sense and the rest of us (except RacerX, Cliff and Will Creedon - on this board at least) are "guesstimating" what can be accomplished via specmanship. It's to that end I consider the small differences bewildering. If you're exposed to that kind of experience, you can make sense of it and understand the relationship. Those of us that are not experienced in that regard are trying to make predictions based on what is probably a less than complete understanding of what those differences really mean.

You just said it yourself. "I know my bike felt better after the Tuning Link, but just simply making it run richer made it feel better, too." That's the whole point, you want the bike to run better. If you start nit-picking over the last couple of tenths of a percent of something, you'll never get finished. Not too long ago, some manufacturer started making noises about "faster spark plug wires". Certainly you can make faster spark plug wires. You might even shave a whole nanosecond or two off of the electrical lead length for a typical spark plug wire. In context with the ignition duration though, it doesn't mean squat. Same goes for comparing all of this data. Unless you have a standard reference point that they're all compared against, the data will not have a great deal of absolute merit. What it will have is a lot of comparitive value. It's important to understand how it all works together and try to optimize it, it's of less importance to strive for some specific goal such as a specific horsepower. Considering the variations in the grades of gasoline here in California, some with alcohol and some without, it would be pointless indeed to aim at a specific horsepower since the variation from tank to tank could be significant. It would be a better expenditure of time and finances to optimize the FI system to accomodate all the myriad things it deals with and handle them well than to skew the system to acheive some specific result at the cost of reducing overall useability.

What's your bike weight now Paul?

Then the best sport must be underwater hockey. No sponsors. No cheerleaders. No spectators. No noise. Pure sport.

That may or may not be explainable depending upon how the dyno curve was obtained. If it's a whack the throttle open to redline and then shut it off, then the energy of the rotating masses in the drivetrain can affect the system. Doug Lofgren has made note of the considerable affects large rear wheels on Harley Davidsons can make on the system at specific rpm's. http://www.visi.com/~moperfserv/rpipes.htm. Just having your engine better cooled down for the second run can make a significant difference as well. That's independent of A/F ratio.

Moto and Cliff are slowly getting to the same page. I'm going to throw in my simplistic 2 cents worth. Any system can be optimized for a static condition, i.e., "mapped" in an ECU. If nothing ever changes, you can be sure that you're deriving that last .5 HP from the engine (a percentage is a better reference though, rather than a hard .5 HP or whatever). In the real world though, NOTHING is static. Virtually everything on an engine will be changing all of the time as well as in the environment. Humidity, temperature, oil viscosity etc. You can't just pick one either, it's a gestalt and you have to consider them all when applying that to the "quantified" horsepower. Which is bullpuckey. You can never fully quantify the horsepower because you cannot separate entirely the effects of the engine itself from the effects of the fuel/air input. You can however, attempt to opimize the output of the system. For EFI systems, that's done with a map that's as close as possible to the desired characteristic. You can enable that map to "self optimize" via external sensors and suitable programming. The nature of servo operation is that the effect will always lag the action - you will never achieve optimum. Sorry, that's the way it is, and to keep harping on the imperfections of O2 sensors and quantified output is a bit off of the point. You can apply any number of partial solutions to the WM problem via PCIII's, TuneBoy, TPS tweaking etc and improve the WM. You can never hope to entirely optimize it. Aside from tweaking for maximum horsepower or maximum fuel economy or meeting environmental pollution concerns, the MOST typical reason for any of these solutions is to attempt to resolve the stumbling of the WM system in the 3-4000 rpm range. Quit paying attention to optimized power figures and bewilderingly small numerical differences and start paying attention to optimum system behavior. The bike with the best performance characteristics is far more enjoyable than the bike with the most characterized performance. Sorry if this sounds like a rant. I keep seeing posts full of edgy disagreement between folks that would probably be good friends if they were working together in the same room.

Nah, let's stick with it and turn it into a rope...

Just think, there may already plans for hard luggage for the Breva 1100. First we get the current Breva 1100 (when, and if, we get it all), then a "naked" version, followed by the full up touring version. One assumes that a full up touring model along the lines of the "V11 GT" would have actual integrated hard luggage. I sure hope MG gets it together on this one this time...

Sure, and while we're at it, let's add more fuel to the fire. This is a truly excellent article by the late Gorden Jennings. How you can read spark plugs and select them I'll bet a beer that the Guzzi, with it's hemispherical combustion chamber, is running too much advance and the wrong heat range on the plug. It may even be a safe statement that the Guzzi engine would benefit most from dual plugging. Or not. It would be REALLY interesting to run a dual plug head with one plug running standard timing and the other plug with varying timing to see what the effect would be. One envisions a Guzzi wandering down the road with multiple coils mounted everywhere, a laptop in the top case, various LCD readouts and a chase vehicle - probably an ambulance Okay Speed Channel, we've got your next hot story...

What a great thread! This is just waaayyyyy too much fun. So, to add to the mystery (misery?), check out Spark-Advance Control by Ion-Sensing and Interpretation. I bet Cliff is going to look at this and start wondering how to incorporate it into his ECU

The 02 sensor is "downstream" from the engine. Therefore, it shouldn't care a whit what condition the engine is in, the rest will be up to the programming of the ECU. Obviously, an ECU that is destined for fuel control is not going to do very much for oil messing up the fuel burn. Throwing that into the equation is tantamount to asking for self stacking firewood.

Somewhere between $279 and $400 USD. They used to be cheaper. Now they're not. This is for the Bosch LSM11 like Cliff used. There is a Bosch LSU4 wideband too. About twice as expensive. Like this? www.sdsefi.com For $200? I'd say no, keep smoking. The kit above is hideously expensive. I couldn't find a separate price listing for the wideband doohickey, it may be part of the entire EFI system. Microtech has a kit. $1,149. No. And some really good instructions (for a Ducati) that I've ripped off from http://www.users.waitrose.com/~paso/stlist.htm ------------------------------- Fuel Injection Adjustment by FIM: How does the CO trimmer work and how do I set it? Every model of Weber injected bike has a CO trimming function which allows the idle mixture to be set. In fact the trimmer affects fuel delivery over the entire RPM range, but with a lesser effect at higher RPM. The amount of fuel added or subtracted from the base fuel duration varies from model to model, as it's programmed differently for different models and ECUs. However it is necessary to adjust the CO Trim to obtain optimum performance. How do I set the trimmer correctly? Firstly let's look at the factors involved in the mixture system: The fuel entering the engine is controlled by the injectors, principally by how long they are open for each engine cycle. Typically at idle they are open from about 1mS to about 2mS. The CO trimmer affects this duration as shown in the table above. This change is the same for both cylinders, and cannot affect the CO cylinder balance. The computer measures the butterfly position using the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS). This sensor is precisely aligned on the butterfly shaft and affects not only fuel delivery but ignition advance as well. Many owners are tempted to move this sensor on the shaft, as you can get more fuel delivery from the ECU in this way. But there are several goods reasons not to do this: The Weber TPS sensors are NOT LINEAR. If you change the position from the factory setting, not only do you change the fuel delivery but you change the ignition advance. This means that the bike will have too much advance at partial throttle, leading to detonation (pinging) problems which were not there before. The factory used a specific setting for it's mapping, and we use the same setting for our mapping. So if you want to achieve optimum results with our chips, then you should set the TPS to the factory settings. Then your engine will operate as close as possible to the engine we used for testing. The air entering the engine is controlled by two things, the throttle butterfly and the air-bleed channel. These two factors are interdependent, i.e., you can get the same amount of air with a shut throttle and open airbleed as with an open throttle and shut air-bleed. The difference is that the ECU does not know how the air-bleeds are set, whereas it does know the throttle position. So you can change the air entering the engine either by opening the throttles (which the ECU knows about and makes an adjustment for) or by opening the airbleed. The salient point here is that the butterfly and the airbleed are designed for two different functions. The butterflies are designed to deliver the same amount of air to each cylinder under load conditions. This is achieved by synchronizing the butterflies using a vacuum gauge or 2-channel CO meter. Because the butterflies are not perfect, the airflow will vary between the two, especially at low throttle settings. It is impossible to maintain exact synchronization through the throttle range, so the butterflies are synched where they are most critical, i.e., in the range one-third to one-half throttle. This can be easily achieved on a brake dyno. The designed purpose of the air-bleeds is to achieve cylinder balance at low, or idle, throttle settings, where the butterflies are effectively closed on the stop screw. The bleeds are adjusted to give either matching vacuum or CO for both cylinders. Clearly the idle can be set in a number of ways, since the mixture and balance are interdependent, along with the butterfly synchronization. So unless you are familiar with idle setting then we suggest you leave this to a dealer with the right equipment. To properly set the CO you need a CO meter !! If you don't have one it is very hard to pin down the relationship between the CO trim, the air bleeds, and the butterfly position. So to reiterate the variables: Throttle Position Sensor adjustment. Butterfly synchronization. CO Trimmer setting. Air Bleeds. We use the following sequence to correctly align all parts of the induction system. This sequence is essentially the same as the factory recommended sequence: Set the Throttle Position Sensor on the throttle shaft. To correctly do this you must: Completely back off the idle stop screws on both throttle bodies. Use the Mathesis tester or a Digital MilliVoltMeter to read the throttle sensor voltage. To do this you should tap the butterfly with your finger to ensure that the butterfly is completely closed against the body. Then you turn on the ignition and measure the voltage on the throttle sensor: P7 or P8 ECU: Pins 11 and 17. 1.6M ECU: Pins 16 and 30. 1.5M ECU: Pins 22 and 11. If the sensor does not read 150mV Plus or Minus 2mV then you need to adjust it: Slacken the lock screws on the throttle sensor using a screwdriver or 7mm socket. Carefully move the sensor whilst reading the voltage. Retighten the lock screws a little at a time, each time reading the voltage and adjusting the sensor. Note that you should probably overshoot the reading by about 5mV on slack screws, because when you tighten them the reading will change by about 5mV. Repeat until perfect. This takes a lot of practice. The factory manuals specify +/- 5mV but we feel that this is not accurate enough. many owners will attest to the difference in performance when the sensor is set perfectly. Reset the throttle stop screw (or screws) so that the engine idles at around 1200 rpm. This is not a final setting for the stop screws, merely a step in the procedure. Typically this will produce a voltage of around 300mV on the TPS. This value is completely arbitrary and is not important. Many people misunderstand the factory manual in this regard and will try resetting the TPS until they get 1200 rpm idle and exactly 300mV on the sensor. THIS IS WRONG !!!. The actual voltage on the sensor at idle is irrelevant to correct sensor positioning on the throttle shaft. Trust Me !! Synchronize the Butterflies: Close the airbleed screws completely by adjusting CLOCKWISE. If you don't do this then the throttle vacuum will still reflect any air passing through the bleed channels and the butterflies will not be perfectly synched. Attach vacuum gauges to the manifold port on each cylinder and run the engine. Adjust the throttle butterfly link shaft until vacuum is identical. Rev the engine and confirm that vacuum tracks on both cylinders throughout the throttle and RPM range. Readjust the link shaft until satisfactory results are obtained. Do Not adjust the throttle link shaft after this point.!! Set the IDLE Balance by adjusting the airbleed screws counterclockwise and confirming that the vacuum is identical for both cylinders at idle. You can rev the engine and observe vacuum tracking through the rev range, and then observe idle vacuum restabilising. NOTE Since the airbleeds are designed to iron out any irregularities in the throttle's function, by their nature there is no default setting, unlike the idle screws on a carburetor. If anything the default setting is fully closed. Airbleeds can also be balanced using a 2 channel CO meter. In this case, just adjust the bleeds until both cylinders have the same CO. Adjust the IDLE Mixture. Finally you get to set the CO Trimmer ! This will affect both cylinders by the same amount, so you need to set the airbleeds first. A typical CO figure for idle is 4% to 6%, but automotive regulations usually specify a CO of under 1% to meet emissions standards. A V-twin will idle very poorly if the CO is set below 1%, so if you are really bothered try a setting of about 3%. Note that you may need to finesse the airbleeds at this stage. Adjust the IDLE RPM. Set the idle rpm at the manufacturer's figure (usually 1100 - 1200 rpm) by adjusting the throttle butterfly stop screw (or screws). We recommend 1200 rpm for Ducatis and Guzzis, possibly 1500 rpm for Ducati 996SPS models. Finally, note that the last three steps are usually repeated until an acceptable balance of Idle Balance, Idle Mixture, and Idle RPM are obtained. This is normal. Do Not adjust the throttle synchronization link shaft once it is set in the early stages. If you do this now, you will need to go through the entire sequence again. So hopefully you will have an engine which now idles, accelerates, and delivers full power faultlessly. Again, if you are not confident about all of these steps, then we suggest you use a dealer who has the skills and equipment. It is not worth adjusting the CO trimmer unless the entire sequence is followed without skipping any steps. I'm looking to buy an "affordable" gas analyzer for tuning my bikes, who make one? I've seen some advertised between $100 and $400, but I'm not too sure of their quality. I don't have any experience with gas analyzers, and I don't want to spend over $500. Do you have any recommendations? We specifically do not recommend anything in that price range, as everything we have tested is crap. For a Lambda sensor to read properly it must have temperature compensation, which is essentially an ECU attached which reads voltage and internal resistance and then looks these up in a table to derive lambda for any given voltage and temperature. The CorseTec and Motec that we sell do this. Nothing on the market for $500 does this, they are usually just a bar-graph LED which shows sensor voltage in a tight range. Useless. Absolutely useless. The other factor in Lambda meters is the probe itself. many of the under $500 meters use a common auto probe which is cheap, but only designed to read accurately at a lambda of 1.0. Although this is a useful area, peak power is delivered at a lambda of 0.88 and a linear reading from 0.75 to 1.0 is essential to properly tune an engine. All the cheap probes/meters do is stretch the linearity of the sensor around the 1.0 region to try to derive richer lambdas than the sensor is capable of. Honestly, we have tried 5 different meters in an attempt to offer a cheeper alternative, and they are just no good. As the exhaust temperature changes the LED readout changes, whereas a temp-compensated unit will show lambda only. It's easy to check because CO meters, although slow, are very accurate over a wide temperature range. We did A/B comparisons of our lambda meters with a CO meter and the cheaper alternatives and the results showed that the CO meter tracked closely with the temp. compensated units, but the cheaper units slewed wildly around, to the extent that I have never used them since! We use a Bosch Motorsport probe which is used world-wide by Superbike, Grand Prix, and Formula 1 teams, and costs around USD 290. The probe is wide-range, linear, and withstands leaded fuel, so it is obviously not an common auto type. The part number is 0 258 104 002, or commonly called LSM11. So really you'd be better off with a cheap CO meter which although slower, is far more accurate. The cheapest I have seen is about USD 900, still more than you want to spend, but don't forget that every 2 bit auto shop has a CO meter and they are rarely used. We used to borrow them all the time before we got decent Lambda meters.

Wooden swingarm???

You had a mechanical failure of a painted part. Painted parts are only covered for 6 months, probably because the plastic is likely to fail at 7 months when in actual use. Good luck with your quest, it might even work - providing there are any kinds of parts available.