moscowphil

No I didn't. The RAM unit was supplied fully assembled, and claimed to be a simple bolt-on - which is what I did, without checking anything (yes I know now I should have checked, but hindsight is a wonderful thing..). Possibly I was supplied with a clutch for a 5 speed as well, I won't know until I pull it apart.

My problem is exactly the opposite, despite having done exactly the same as you!

It doesn't necessarily mean the odysseys, caused the failures I know, but the fact that Ducati Energia won't guarantee the VR if it is used with an Odyssey does concern me. On the basis of what I've gleaned so far I'm going to replace my battery with something else (probably Yuasa, as this is what Guzzi now specify for the V11) asap - VRs cost more than batteries.

Pete - Sorry to resurrect an old thread. But was there ever a satisfactory outcome to this? I only ask because I will soon be wanting to buy a few parts for my Scura, and it might affect where I get them from, if you catch my drift.

Many Thanks for finding this. It might well be the explanation. The RAM clutch I fitted came completely assembled, so obviously It's got the RAM centre button in it. If the pushrod isn't seating properly in the centre button this would have the effect of making the pushrod seem too long, and cause the problem I experienced. Looks like the only way to find out is pull the bike apart, which I will do next winter, while sticking with the spacer bodge in the meantime. Thanks to everyone for their input.

Are you sure about that Bruce? I always thought the Scura's wiring was the same as a standard V11 of the same year - certainly when I bought my Scura (new) the handbook the factory supplied (complete with wiring diagram) didn't even mention the existence of the Scura! My understanding of the way things work (thanks to reading all the stuff Kiwi Roy has published on the subject) - is that the route to the Voltage Regulator voltage sensing input is something like this: (1) battery +ve to Fuse 5 (2) F5 to starter relay power in (terminal 30) (3) starter relay power out (terminal 87a) to headlight relay power in (terminal 30) (4) headlight relay power out (terminal 87) to voltage regulator (and to light switches). This is a really crap arrangement, as any burning of the points or a bad connection in either the starter relay or the headlight relay will introduce resistance into the circuit, resulting in the VR sensing too low a voltage, causing it to over-charge to compensate. This is I think what was happening with my bike. (I replaced both relays, so I can't say which one was the bad one). As far as I know the ignition switch (and the run switch, sidestand switch etc) only affect things in that they need to be turned on to provide power to the "activating coil" bit of the headlight relay i.e. terminal 85 - so with the ignition off the switch in the relay will be open and there will be no voltage for the VR to sense. But the main power into to the relay doesn't flow through the ignition switch - it comes from the starter relay, as I've described above. Apologies Roy if I've completely misunderstood your valiant attempts to teach us all how to be electricians. But what is it about Italians and electricity? A couple of years ago I had to re-wire my expensive Smeg oven when the main switch melted, which turned out to be due to a simple lack of understanding on the part of the designers that if you try to put 15 amps through a cheap spade connector badly crimped on to a bit of 1mm wire it's going to get very hot.

The thing I go back to, though, is that the Odyssey appears to be the same as the OEM stock battery in the V11. That battery had no issues with the V11 charging system. In fact, it lasted a really long time for most people, just as the Odyssey battery does. I even have an Odyssey battery now in our Lario. If it can last there it can last everywhere. I'm wondering if the Odyssey is actually identical to the original Spark 500, or maybe there are subtle differences? I've been wasting time searching the web, and have discovered that the Spark 500 is still made, by an Italian company called HESA - who also own Enersys who make Odyssey batteries! According to the specs on their website, the Spark 500 is a 13Ah battery, whereas they say the Odyssey is 12Ah. And there are various other differences in the specs, including different weight, so maybe there are internal differences, and the fact that they look identical is simply down to them using the same moulding for the case? I don't know. Have a look at http://www.hesatecnologie.it/it/marchirappresentati.htmlif you are intereted. Incidentally I reckon I can out-do your success with the Odyssey in your Lario - The ORIGINAL Spark 500 out of my 02 Scura is now doing an excellent job starting my daughter's V50. This must be some kind of record!

Thanks for the explanation Roy. I've now fitted a voltmeter so at least I can keep an eye on what is going on. But I'm still mystified as to why Odyssey batteries have been singled out as "not recommended".

I recently thought I had a voltage regulator problem - the bike was over-charging. happily it turned out to be only a dodgy relay causing the problem, but while I was searching the internet for info I came across an advert from Euro Motoelectrics for ducati energia regulaltors, as fitted to our bikes, and was alarmed to see, written in capitals "USE OF ODYSSEY BATTERY ( DRY CELL DESIGN) AND LITHIUM IRON BATTERY NOT RECOMMENDED OR SUPPORTED FOR WARRANTY". Which seems weird, as I thought the Odyssey is not much different to any other AGM battery. Does anyone know anything about this? Am I at risk of frying my regulator (I have a PC545 battery)? Would I be better off swapping to a Yuasa?

Yes I think you are right about that. Basically the problem seems to be that it stopped being self adjusting because there is is no more "headroom" in the slave cylinder for the piston to adjust into. I discovered this when I loosened the 3 screws that fasten the slave to the back of the gearbox (I was changing the fluid, and following the manual's suggestion that I should remove the slave to purge it of any old fluid - a job that turns out to be impossible without a major dismantle of the back end). Anyway, to get back to the point, upon loosening the 3 screws, the slave cylinder was pushed back off the back of the geararbox by maybe a quarter of a mil or so, and could not be easily pushed back on. From which I concluded that the force to push it off must be being provided by the diaphragm spring pushing on the pushrod, which in turn was pushing on the piston, which in turn was pushing on - well it could only have been the top of the cylinder bore (I'd already drained the fluid at this point). That's how I concluded that there was no adjustment left in the slave cylinder. And of course this meant that when the slave was bolted up tight against the gearbox, it will have been pushing on the diaphragm, so causing the clutch slip I was experiencing. And the fact that putting spacers between the gearbox and the slave provided a cure does seem to confirm this. The ideal solution would seem to be to fit a slave cylinder with a longer throw, which would be better suited to the RAM clutch, but I suspect this might prove difficult to find.

From memory it was somewhere in the middle, and didn't feel particularly different to the original Scura single-plater (which only had about 3,000 miles on it, and which I only replaced due to paranoia about exploding flywheels). From which I assumed that the swap had been completely straightforward.

Many thanks for the offer Scud. If there is a difference in rod length between the single plate and dual plate clutches this might explain things (though I think it's the other way round - too long a rod would explain my symptoms). Trouble is though, it's a big-ish job to get the push-rod out to measure it, and at the moment I'd rather be riding my bike than pulling it to pieces. So I think I'll save that job till next winter, and carry on with my bodge-fix for now. Cheers, Phil

Thanks to everyone for all the replies. Having read them all and done a bit more digging on tinternet, I've come to the following conclusions (until I change my mind!) (1) My problem is definitely caused by lack of piston travel in the slave cylinder. Possibly this is because the push-rod is too long, but probably not. What seems much more likely is that (to quote lucky Phil) "its just a case of the actuating system isn't well matched to the diaphram design". When you think about it this makes perfect sense. The actuating mechanism was designed for the 2 plater, and with this clutch each 1mm of wear on the plates simply requires the pushrod and piston to back-up 1mm to compensate. Whereas in a diaphragm clutch this amount is magnified substantially -the piston probably needs to back-up 4 or 5mm to compensate for 1mm of plate wear. So the bottom line is that the slave cylinder used on V11s probably simply doesn't have enough piston travel for the RAM clutch. (And of course the RAM clutch was originally designed for cable actuation, where this wasn't an issue, as the free play could be manually adjusted). (2) So the ideal solution would be to find a slave cylinder with a longer total piston travel which could be fitted in place of the original. Theoretically possible I'm sure, but next to impossible in practice I suspect. (3) Which leaves me with the options of either replacing the clutch plate at ridiculously short intervals (and even using a thicker plate is not going to improve matters if the problem lies with the slave cylinder), or converting to a 2 plater (expensive, and seems like a backward step) or: (4) Carry on bodging it with shims until such a time as the plate is actually worn out, and bodging it no longer works, at which point I'll either stick another single plate in or convert to a 2 plater. So carry on bodging it is then. Seems like the proper Guzzi way of doing things.

Thanks Scud. The finger of suspicion is definitely pointing at the push-rod ....

Well you are right in thinking that I can't have measured the thickness of the plate very accurately - short of removing the clutch the only way to do it was using a caliper through the inspection hole. It looked pretty much un-worn but I wouldn't like to put a figure on it. However, I'm unconvinced that a friction plate can be worn out after less than 1mm wear. In theory the thickness of the friction material should be of no consequence providing there is some friction material left. The friction material does not provide structural strength to the plate, this is the job of the inner steel core, so loss of friction material as the plate wears should not cause any problems apart from the lack of adjustment one I've experienced. After all, a similar single plate diaphragm design is used in virtually all car clutches, which regularly last 100,000 miles, despite being given a much harder time than my clutch ever gets. I wonder whether the reports of clutch plates being "worn out" at low mileages are actually other people suffering the same lack of adjustment problem as me?

Got the RAM clutch ages ago from Agostinis in Mandello. I've no idea whether they are still available. The stock flywheel had only done a few thousand miles when I replaced it, and it looked fine - though I didn't have it crack tested. You might well be right about the actuating rod being a different length. I assumed that as I was going from a single plater to an almost identical single plater there would be no problem, but on reflection the RAM is not identical to the original, and it would make sense that RAM designed their clutch so that the original actuating rod (as used on twin-platers) could still be used. I'll see if I can track down the thread you mentioned. Thanks.

221 has now emigrated to sunny Spain. Couldn't stand the Yorkshire weather. Plus the traffic, state of the roads, speed cameras, etc. etc.

Anyone else out there had this problem? - My Scura has a genuine RAM single plater, which I put in to replace the original "grenading flywheel" scura clutch, just for peace of mind. The RAM only has about 8,000 miles on it, but recently started to slip when cold, but was fine once the bike was warmed up. A quick visual check showed no sign of any oil near the clutch, and virtually no wear of the clutch plate . So I checked the slave cylinder, and what was apparent was that the piston was backed up as far as it would go in the cylinder, and so was putting pressure on the push rod and so stopping the clutch from fully engaging. I guess the reason the clutch slip went away when the engine was hot was simply due to the expansion of the castings relieving some of this pressure. As a temporary fix I put washers between the slave cylinder and the back of the gearbox, to create a bit of extra "headroom" for the piston. (Sounds easy but was a pig of a job). This has cured the problem, and I now have a fully functioning clutch again - for now. However it's only a matter of time before the problem will re-occur, as the washers are only about 1mm thick, and from the design of the clutch, I reckon it will only need the plate to wear another 0.2mm or so to take up all the extra 1mm. I suspect the problem stems from the fact that the RAM clutch was actually originally designed as a replacement for the 2 plater cable operated clutches, and so the necessary clearance between push rod and diaphragm could always be found just by adjusting the cable or the screw on the actuating arm. But with the hydraulic mechanism there is no adjuster, so no way of adjusting it that I can see, other than my bodge with washers. Unless there's something strange about my set-up, I assume others must have suffered a similar problem. If so, how did you get round it? I don't fancy having to replace the clutch every 8.000 miles, when it's hardly worn at all, so are there any other fixes other than periodically sticking more washers in to take up the wear? Shorten the push-rod? fit a different slave cylinder? Any ideas gratefully accepted!

Thanks Luhbo, that's brilliant information. Particularly the bit about the ECU enrichening the mixture for 1000 revs after startup, which I didn't know. The tester checked the emissions immediately after I restarted the engine, so it could be that this is the only reason it failed! But I will also try leaning it out a bit with the PC3 to be on the safe side. I can always put it back to where it was as soon as I've left the testing station! Phil

Hoping someone can give me few ideas how to do this. I'm in the process of re-registering my Scura onto Spanish plates which is causing me a few problems - As part of the process I have to get the bike through a sort of extended MOT test (called an ITV), but it failed on the level of CO emissions (which are tested at idle). My bike was producing 5.5% CO, where the limit in Spain is 4.5% - so an automatic fail. So I need to sort this out pronto. I'll give the bike a full service, including new plugs and air filter, check the TPS voltage and check the engine and air temperature sensors are working, which hopefully might sort it out, but is there anything else I can do to lean out the mixture at idle? (I assume leaner mixture = less CO). I've got a PC3 fitted (with a null map at the moment, as it's back on its standard exhaust for obvious reasons) - if I just use this to lean out the bottom range would do this do the trick? Or is there some other way of adjusting the idle mixture? The bike is going great, so I can't imagine there is anything seriously wrong anywhere, and I don't want to change anything drastically, but I've got to find a way of getting it through the test! Any advice? Thanks

I've used Rustoleum "hard Hat" aerosol with good results. It says it's matt on the tin, not satin, but it's a pretty good match to the frame paint on my Scura.

I don't think Guzzi grease the splines as standard, but BMW do (they produce a special grease for the job) - so take your pick. Having seen how quickly the splines wear when ungreased, I blagged a bit of grease from my friendly BMW dealer when I replaced my clutch. Time will tell whether it improves the life of the splines. If you do use grease only use a very thin smear, or it will fly off and knacker your friction surfaces.

I'm a bit confused about the symptoms - are you saying that it feels as though the bike is in neutral? If so, it's not the hydraulics, and I'd suspect the gearbox rather than the clutch

BPR5 is a hotter plug than BPR6 - i.e. the tip of the plug will get hotter if you use BPR5. As it's only 1 grade hotter it might be OK but then again it might not - a hotter plug can cause pre-ignition, which can seriously damage your engine, so personally I wouldn't chance it. For a definitive explanation have a look at http://www.ngksparkplugs.com/tech_support/spark_plugs/p2.asp?mode=nml

I've had my bike from new, and yes, the RH silencer is further away from the wheel than the LH one.