Ryland3210

I think our posts crossed in the "mail". I appreciate the warning about cheap clamps.

The rear main bearing has to be high enough so the crankpins clear the sump and then some. Half of the stroke is 40 mm. How much oil is an estimated 2-4 inches above the top of the filter? I don't know, but it's something, so the anti drainback valve is not entirely useless. By the way, it actually takes longer to build pressure when starting the bike at 65 degrees F than it did at 34! This seems to favor higher viscosity oils if the goal is long term plain bearing life for this specific engine.

Thanks, Greg. I didn't realize expanders could be bought so cheap. I'll remember that next time. Earlier today, acting on Ratchethack's suggestion, a local friendly muffler shop used his hydraulic expander with no problem. It turns out that whatever stainless Staintune uses is pretty mild. They only needed about 10 thou' expansion. I had taken careful measurements of the exhaust pipes before marching off to the muffler shop. It turns out they were about 0.010" egg-shaped, and the Staintunes had been compressed by the previous person clamping them down hard. The minimal expansion did the trick, took all of 1 minute for both, and no charge. Next time I need a custom exhaust system I'll be back there! One thing I learned is that the hydraulic expanders used by the two local muffler shops I spoke to are not calibrated. They worked simply by pressure and flow controlled by a lever. Really crude. If I had it to do over again, I would buy a mechanical expander to get a precise expansion. I'm amazed that the ones used by these muffler shops have no way to physically control the size they are expanding to. Expanding my mufflers the small amount necessary was a most delicate matter with these overpowered machines. Bottom line is that new Staintunes probably fit fine out of the box. Can't say I like the mirror finish, but I'm sure that will go away with time. Now I'm in the market for a airbox cover elimination ring, and it's off to Dynajet.

I bought them from a dealer, but they were used, and one was scratched. Frankly, had I not gotten a pretty attractive discount, I would have bought another brand, new. I liked the advantages of the stainless steel wool, and removeable baffles. You're absolutely right that they should fit, but this was a special case, and I knew what I was getting into.

I just cannot get my arms around the idea of using an insulating grease for the purpose of improving contact reliability. Battery terminal protection sprays and "goop" are to prevent corrosion from the outside. Useful on the outside of the connector to prevent moisture from getting in, but not on the terminals themselves. That defies common sense. Conductive paste to the mating contacts makes sense to me. In cases where the load is far below the contact rating, vibration could well be the culprit. 100,000 life cycles can happen pretty quickly. 33 minutes at 3,000 RPM = 100,000 cycles. The key issue is whether the design maintains enough contact pressure to withstand the peak accelerations caused by the vibration and whether it has any resonances in the range of the engine's vibration frequency. Omron specs include the entire range of a Guzzi's vibrations. Now, I'm not predicting that one can expect relays to fail in 33 minutes of riding. However, suppose vibration causes the contacts to rub against each other, wearing them out prematurely. Or, more plausible, suppose the relay has a resonance frequency within the RPM range. Then its lifetime would have a lot to do with how much time it spends at that RPM.

I've seen those hydraulic expanders used to swage and compress hydraulic tubing, but I haven't been to a muffler shop for at least 20 years. Thanks for reminding me. That's a winner. I figure 10 thousandths should do it. This is stainless, so it's more brittle than mild steel. Once I find a cooperative shop, I'll take the bike over there on my trailer to make it just right, taking it 5 thousandths at a time. That's got to work. Thank you!

I have been unable to push my new Staintune mufflers on the exhaust pipe. Getting the original mufflers off was a bit of a challenge, but no big deal. Evidently the Staintune I.D. is a little smaller. Here's what I have tried so far: Attempt one: Try mounting it out of tbe box-no way. Attempt two: Dremel with wire wheel to make the Staintune's I.D. totally smooth. Cleaned mating parts with naphtha and coated with never sieze. Only could get on halfway. Rotated the muffler while on the exhaust pipe to detect any out of round condition-no apparent problem that way. Attempt three: Filed the exhaust pipe O.D. end to a 10 degree chamfer (approx.) Wiped off never seize, coated exhaust pipe with Lithium grease, Heated the Staintune end with a propane torch. It went on about 60% quick and easy, then locked up solid within 2 seconds before I could get it all the way on, as the mating parts equalized temperature. I'd rather not extend the slots on the lovely Staintunes or add ones to the exhaust pipes. There aren't any readily available friendly outfits with swaging equipment nearby. I'm disappointed in Staintunes at this point. They are the most expensive on the planet for this application. I expected no such problems. On the lighter side, I took a very short ride with no mufflers. The sound was awesome! A deep rumble at idle and a major howl at higher RPM's. Not too bad at cruise, either, until you hit the throttle and blast off! It looks cool, too, with the pipes pointed out and back, like it was made that way on purpose. Once I get the Staintunes on, airbox modified, my plan is to get a PCIII and get it dyno tuned. Then I'll feel safe trying that again at the next local biker night. These events bring the open pipe blasters out. It would be fun to drop in with mine. Has anyone an alternative suggestion to get the Staintunes fitted so I can also get them off later on, if need be?

For the starter solenoid, go with 12, multistranded copper. More strands means more vibration tolerance. I'm inclined to agree with you about simply replacing the starter relay when it blows if 12,000 miles is the typical lifetime. It's cheap and easy. The Omrons should do even better with the high inrush rating.

If a relay comes with internal diode protection, then its coil terminals will have to wired with the manufacturer's polarity. If a diode is to be added externally, the diode's cathode must be connected to the side of the coil which is positive, and the diode's anode to the negative terminal. The switching current is the maximum current the relay can absorb the instant the contacts are closed, but not forever. The steady current is the continuous current it can handle thereafter. For example, lamps normally draw several times their operating current when first energized. As the filament heats up and glows, its resistance increases dramatically, so the current draw decreases. That's why both ratings are important. Rated load is normally the same as the steady or continuous current it can handle continuously without failure, but "rated" can mean different things to different manufacturers. For example, for how many cycles, at what temperature, etc.? The way GEI specifies it, the rated current of 25A is continuous without time limit. The 30A max. carry is the current it can handle without damage for a limited (unspecified by GEI) period of time. The corresponds to Omron's "overcurrent"

The key here is your comment that it doesn't "really" keep the whole system primed. I wasn't thinking of a siphon effect, just the gravitational head of the oil in passages above the sump oil level which will create back pressure on the oil filter. No siphon effect is required for that to exist. If the anti drainback valve functions properly, then where does the oil go unless there is a siphon effect?

And so what size would you recommend for my newly acquired 4.5" wheel?

Sorry Greg, I still don't get it. You haven't been specific beyond "needs" in one case and "superfluous" in the other. Please explain what other mechanism in the V11 Sports series prevents oil from draining down from the parts of the engine above the sump level.

The Omron NC connection specs are 30 amps switching, 10 amps steady. They used to make a heavier duty relay rated at 40 NO and 20 NC, but do not want to gear up for production on it. GEI does not specify the switching current, and its steady current rating is 20 amps. I didn't focus on that because with the newer model bikes it only drives a switching relay coil that draws about 0.15 amps, and on the older bikes around 8.1 amps maximum. However, for example, using GEI's spec of .05 ohms initial contact resistance, that would permit a voltage drop of 0.4 volts across the contacts and dissapate 3.3 watts, not terribly much. That's the initial contact resistance, when they are shiny and new. It generally increases with use. If the older bikes have had problems with this contact on other brands of relays, it may have been that an even higher contact resistance would lead to more heat damage to the contacts and dimmer headlights, especially considering the effect that two contacts in series driving the lights would have. 0.8 volts can make a big difference in brightness in incandescant bulbs. There is no need to reverse the polarity of the circuit driving the coil in order to use a diode. The diode can be wired in reverse instead. I'm with you on using the existing relay to drive another, higher powered, relay to drive the starter in turn. I'm frankly amazed these micro starter relays don't get fried more often. I've already taped a spare next to the relay bank. Here's another interesting spec. from Omron: minimum carry current is 1 amp at 5 volts. What this is about is that, except for mercury wetted relays, dry contacts can increase resistance over time if the load is too light. What Omron is saying is that life will be shortened unless at least 5 volts is switched, and at least 1 amp is the load current. The reason is that a little load is a good thing because it helps keep the contacts clean. Therefore, the fact that the NC contacts only drive 0.15 amps is worse than if it drove 1. The fact that 12-14 is higher than 5 is a positive in this regard. The same would hold true for GEI, even though they do not show a minimum carry rating.

Thanks, Dave. That fills in some blanks. Here are the differences between the Omron and GEI AR4 relay NO contacts according to the data sheets: GEI Omron Switching Amps 25 60 Steady Amps 25 20 Initial contact voltage 0.2 0.15 ( both at rated current) However, the GEI also states initial contact resistance is .05 Ohms, which translates to 1.0 volt at 20 amps) Vibration 10-40Hz at 1.27mm double amplitude for the GEI versus 20-500 Hz at 43.1m/s^2 for the Omron. Shock, functioning "Aproximately 100m/s^2" for the GEI, verus "100m/s^2" for the Omron. Shock, mechanical Not specified for the GEI, 1000m/s^2 for the Omron. Temperature, operating -40-85C -40-125C Weight 19g 20g Omron shows durability of 300,000 cycles at 40A inductive load inrush, 20A steady, 300,000 cycles at 100A inrush, 20A steady for lamp load. GEI does not specify durability ratings. Omron shows overcurrent rating: 80A for 10 seconds at 14 volts, 80C, and 50A for 30 seconds at 14 volts, 80C. GEI does not specify overcurrent ratings. In terms of the vibration ratings, the higher frequency ratings provided by Omron are more relavant. The 40 Hz highest frequency tested by GEI corresponds to 2400 RPM, wheras the range rated by Omron corresponds to 1200 to 30,000. Although these engines do not rev that high, harmonics of the fundamental frequency will go above the redline. While it appears the GEI has a higher steady current rating, the Omron has the advantage on being able to switch 60 amps versus GEI's 25. GEI's somewhat higher contact resistance means that more heat will build up in the contacts and there will be a higher voltage drop. There also is an inconsistency in its ratings. At 25 amps load, one specification indicates 0.2 volts, whereas the other translates to 1.25. At 25 amps, that's 5 watts and 31.25 watts respectively. In either case, that's a lot of power concentrated at the contacts. The Omron version dissapates a little less power in the contacts and has a lower voltage drop. It comes down to how much precious metal is used in the contacts, how much pressure is applied by the coil to the contacts, and how well the design conducts away heat. It would be worthwhile to dissect one of each to see what the differences are. Meanwhile, in my opinion, Omron's higher switching current capacity overcomes the GEI steady current's 25A versus Omron's 20A because of that and because when one examines the voltage drops, the Omron shows less voltage drop. The implication is that Omron has better contacts in spite of the lower rating. It appears to be a more conservative rating. The higher operating temperature rating, vibration rating covering the entire RPM range, overcurrent ratings, and durability ratings all inspire confidence. I'm looking forward to receiving Omron's samples early this coming week.

According to the manual, the starter motor is rated at 1.2 kW at 12 volts. That translates into 100 amps if it were 100% efficient. It's probably somewhere between 75 and 85% efficient, so the actual current draw would then be somewhere between 117 and 133 amps. The current with no load is given as 600 A no load and 230 A with load. I think the manual has it backwards. The 600 amps is most likely the current drawn if the rotor is locked. At 230 amps, the input from the battery would be 2.76 kW, which implies an efficiency of only 43.5 %. Maybe so, but that's pretty poor performance. In any event, it is not unreasonable for a solenoid to draw 49 amps to operate a 230 amp set of contacts, plus operate the solenoid to engage the starter motor mechanically. When I first measured the resistance of the solenoid with an ohmmeter, I had difficulty believing it when it read 0.2 Ohms since its resolution is + - 0.1, so I measured it to three decimals using a current source and measuring the voltage across the solenoid. Since two independent measurements agree, I'm confident it's around 0.25 Ohms. Yet, the fuse running it is only a 20 amp fuse. I see three possibilites: either the fuse can withstand much more than 20 amps for several seconds, or the solenoid current draw decreases as it pulls in, or both. The manual is emphatic about only attempting starting for 5 seconds, and then waiting 10 seconds before trying again. This would give the 20 amp fuse and relay contacts some time to dissapate the heat generated. As far as the solenoid current draw decreasing as it pulls in, that is normal for an AC solenoid, but not for a DC. One conclusion I have reached so far, is that the 20 AMP fuse will probably do a good job protecting the relay contacts, but I plan on carrying spares with a higher rating, just in case I blow one on the road just because it takes too long to get the bike started. It also means the inrush and switching capacity of the relay contacts being above 50 amps are important, given the 49 amp load.

More data: The starter solenoid on my '04 measures at 0.245 ohms, so at 12 volts cranking voltage, it would draw 50 amps. The Omron relay specifies a switching current of 60 amps, with 100 amps inrush and a durability of 300,000 cycles. Their advertised spec on electrical life is 100,000 operations. So far, so good.

It depends on the stored energy and current draw of the coil in question. The Zener should have to have a current rating exceeding the coil current and what is called an I squared t (fuse) rating exceeding the stored energy. The Zener's voltage may vary with temperature. It's important that its voltage is higher than the charging voltage under all circumstances. It's somewhat complex. The Zeners used for voltage regulation on the older bikes were rated to absorb the entire alternator/generator output, so they would certainly work. Less than that requires analyzing the Zener's specs.

No worries, Ratchethack. It's not a new relationship with Omron for me. We have been using their PLC's and other components for many years. Competition is not the factor here. I'm looking to be of service and recover my costs, that's all. This is a small ticket item, and it's not something I've engineered. It doesn't matter a hill of beans to me if someone else works a better deal with Omron and makes a buck in the process. To be candid, I'm also pursuing this as much for my own edification and use. I have doubts about Chinese sources and the validity of their ratings and quality control. I have personally done business with the Chinese and travelled there many times since 1983. My doubts arise from personal experience. As far as collaboration is concerned, whereas I started out with limited data and experience in the field of TPS and Synch methods, in the field of relays its different. My experience goes all the way back to my days at HP, when I tested and specified numerous relays for use in their computer testing equipment. Frankly, while I know my limitations, collaboration in this specific case would just slow things down. The sample relays are on the way.

Although the filter is mounted upside down, and part of it is below the oil level, there are still all the oil passages above the sump level and filter creating a pressure due to gravity. Without an anti drainback valve in the filter, what would stop this from slowly draining back to the sump? As you probably already know, the UFI OEM filter spec calls for an anti-drainback valve, which does increase the cost of the filter. So does the Purolator cross.

In the 2004 version, the starter relay's NC contacts only drive a relay coil. There may be other differences.

I initially tried to find an application, but it's like a needle in the haystack. Furthermore, different part numbers are used for different marketing channels. That would have been quicker, but since it didn't work, I went direct to Omron. It's more time and effort that way, but it has the advantage of lower prices. I'll keep plugging away.

Thanks, Ratchethack. I'm working with Omron on evaluating their alternatives. They will be sending me samples shortly. I'm not sure Dan qualifies as a tier one or two supplier to the automakers, as I am. It is that status that has allowed me to get past the distributor level into Omron corporate. The purpose is to tap into the high reliability, high performance products they sell to the automakers, and to get the best possible discount pricing for our members. I'm happy to provide Dan with the results of my research, pricing, etc., once I have completed it.

The issue of quality is key. When are ratings to be believed? Under what conditions are they specified? According to the 2004 schematic, the starter relay's NC contacts only drive a relay coil, so as long as that coil has internal suppression resistors, the NC contacts have an easy job. I remain concerned that the NO contacts drive the starter motor relay-is it arc suppressed? I expect to measure its current draw tomorrow. I'm hoping someone can tell us if it has internal suppression. If not, I'll get an oscilloscope on it. The spec sheet provided on the GEI relays does not specify contact resistance. That determines the voltage drop across the contacts, and the heat generated thereby.

I think what he means is that the number on the big signs seen from the road is the average, "PON", and that is the uniform method used on those signs. What is on the pump is another issue. If you think about it, since octane is not measured as delivered by the pump, an average of the two methods is a reasonable approximation of what actually goes into your tank. It makes sense.

Sounded great, and I would have loved joining you, but I usually need more notice. It's a great area to ride around, and it was a terrific day. Hope you had a great time.