Ryland3210

I recall my Ph.D. chemist friend telling me how I could increase octane back when leaded was still on the market, and the first unleadeds were not available in high enough octane for my Barracuda. His recommendation was to fill my tank about 80-90% with unleaded regular, and the rest with leaded regular. It worked great! So my question is, what ratio toluene to gasoline are you suggesting? Is it a simple weighted average of the pump octane number and 120, or is there a synergistic effect?

Here's the latest news from Omron: They are not running production on the relay with the higher contact ratings than Tyco/GEI alternatives. The unit they have available is rated at 20 amps continuous on the Normally Open contacts and 10 amps continuous on the Normally Closed. The starter relay uses the NO contacts to run the starter motor. The GEI data sheet specifies 25 amps for resistive load on the NO contacts, but does not specify inrush current capability, whereas the Omron specifies 60 amps inrush on the NO contacts. This is important because it tells us how much current it can withstand when the starter button is pushed. Omron also publishes extensive test data on the relays. For example a 300,000 cycle test at 100 amps inrush. Omron is willing to send me relays for this application to evaluate. I will accept their offer, test the relays and see what kind of deal I can get on discount pricing and report back.

My discussion on diode suppression on the relay coils was intentionally academic, since the relays under consideration have internal suppression. However, according to the schematic, the starter relay contacts drive a relay which in turn drives the starter motor. I'm thinking of using a diode across its coil to save the starter relay's contacts from what is likely to be a pretty powerful arc. I don't want to use a resistor or capacitor in this case. Does anyone know if it already has suppression, and if not, how much current it draws? If not, I'll measure it.

Ratchethack's points are well taken, but you may be planning on doing it yourself. If so, my local tire dealer says to avoid using soap based lubricants to assist in mounting the tire, which may cause the aluminium rim to corrode internally. Probably won't cause a leak this time around, but it might be difficult to clean up the rim the next time the tire is changed.

Thanks, Dave, for pointing this out. The moral to this story is that anyone thinking of installing their own arc suppression components should have a reasonable understanding of electronics. Many other considerations come into play besides diode polarity. Capacitors have working voltage ratings, there are polar and non-polar types, resistors have power ratings, etc.

Ah Hah! That use of the wire never occurred to me. I did find it a convenient place to tie wrap my control cables to. Another bike I own has a reputation of more than average ignition switch failures, and a blazer I owned years ago began to get difficult to operate. It was caused by excessive wear from the weight of several keys on a key ring hanging on the ignition key. For that reason, I don't have key fobs on my motorcycle keys. As to the gauge using an existing screw, why not?! The combined weight of the gauge and adapter manifold is not much. I'm willing to work with you to try to figure out how to modify the manifold I used on my bike to adapt to another connection point on a bolt-on basis. Towards the beginning of this thread you can see the profile view showing the hexagonal shaped adapter. It should be pretty simple to use its two existing screw locations to attach either a machined or sheet metal adapter, but I'll need some pictures. Send me a personal message if you're interested.

Good question. The starter relay is the only one using 5 pins. My plan is to replace all the relays and keep my originals as spares. Depending on the prices I get, I may focus on only getting the 5 pin versions. If they plug into the sockets which only use 4 pins, they will all be interchangeable. Are you interested in just replacing the starter relay, or all of them?

Good idea. I'll contact Dan once I hear from Omron.

Seems like the simple solution is either a sheet metal bracket to a convenient existing screw location, or a clamp around the handlebars. The Cafe Sport and Ballabio type instrument panels are straightforward for the bolt on design I use on my bike. I prefer the simplicity of the banjo bolt adapter. No electrical hookup, and can be installed with an open end wrench without taking off the tank or changing with the existing pressure switch setup.

My recollection is that the pump octane here is the average of the RON (Research Octane Number) and a test Octane number. The RON is the highest of the rating methods. Therefore the octane listed on the pumps here is lower than the RON. Some of the pumps used to indicate the rating method, but it's been years since I checked. I'll start checking again.

I received a response from Omron's marketing. It turns out the heavy duty version of the relay has not been selling in the U.S. auto manufacturers' market. That may mean that the automakers have no need in their applications over here, or are not concerned about long term failures. They had a lot of questions about market size, volume, prices points, etc. I gave my best estimates. I hope something comes of this effort. Rattling Omron's cage to purchase a few relays will not make their day, nor do my credibility any good. I've asked them for quantity price breakdowns on both the 4 and 5 pin versions. Personally, if they make them available, I'll be glad to get them if only for myself. I just don't want any preventable downtime. Replacing a relay free of charge is great, but preventing a problem is better, when the cost for a high quality relay isn't even a tank of gas. Any one out there interested? My best guess is the price will be somewhere between $5 and $10.

One of the members and I have been discussing how fast oil pressure builds on cold starts with 15W40 oil. I thought I would share the results with everyone. I left my beloved bike out in the cold last night, knowing it was going to dip below freezing. There was still frost on the grass and the air temperature was 34 F. There was condensation on the bike, so I knew it was good and cold. While I was cranking to get it started, pressure started to build almost instantly. Within 3 seconds of relatively slow cranking, before the engine even sputtered, pressure was up to 20 psi and climbing fast. I estimate the engine was turned over 10 revolutions at most, by which time it reached 40, and still kept climbing. When it started, it jumped to 65. at 2000 RPM, it was at 80 psi, which appeared to be the relief valve's effective limit at this low an oil temperature. Normally it stays around 50-60 when fully warmed up, depending on ambient temperature. Conditions are my '04 Cafe Sport with about 4000 miles, Purolator L10241 filter, 15W40 Shell Rotella oil. Evidently the anti drainback valve in this filter does its job (not that other filters aren't just as good in this respect, but this is the only one I have tested this way. From now on, I plan on taking advantage of this. My bike does not like to start unless I give it some throttle, even with the "choke" on full. I now know I can deliberately leave the choke off and crank until I see pressure building, because it happens quickly enough to not drain the battery much. Then use the normal starting method, knowing oil will be pressurized the instant she fires up. I used to do the same thing when I ran a boat with twin 454's, but it would take a lot longer to build pressure than this. I'm more and more happy to have this gauge. I keep learning more and more about how this engine runs, so I can protect it for the long haul.

GEI Relays are made in China. Omron's are made in the USA. Omron makes relays with higher contact ratings that will fit the socket, and the base is sealed. I have had one installed for a couple of weeks in the starter position and it hasn't failed, but that's a short term test. I have a pretty high level of confidence in Omron. They make one for automobile applications with an even higher contact rating, but it's not available through distributors. As an OEM to the automakers, I have contacted Omron directly to obtain a supply. They are still thinking about it, because I'm honest with them and told them, no, I will not be buying millions. I'm confident I can pull strings if necessary, but it may take a little time. Arc suppression using a capacitor is not a good idea for this application. In a distributor/coil ignition system, a capacitor allows the coil primary voltage to reach the relatively high levels it needs to create a high enough voltage on the secondary to ignite the mixture. The capacity is also designed (in a good design) to equalize contact erosion between one side and the other of the contacts to extend life. The better relay coils used on the MG have resistors in parallel with their coils to limit the peak inductive "kickback" or "flyback" voltage. These typically permit the voltage to reach around 60-80 volts. If a capacitor were used, when the contacts closed, they would have to absorb a momentary, but quite high, current to discharge the capacitor. Ideally, 50 milliamps is just enough to keep contacts clean in controlling a circuit with very low current draw (not the situation in Guzzi's), but that would require a resistor plus capacitor, which is more expensive for manufacturers. A diode with current rating at least as high as the load would probably work fine in Guzzi's. It only allows the kickback voltage to rise to 0.7 to 1.2 volts. However that will slow down the time the coil takes to de-engergize, so in applications where you want the relay to release quickly, that might be a problem. I'm not aware of any situation in a Guzzi where this is an issue, so a diode would be all right. Virtually any diode will withstand the reverse voltage in a 12 volts system. In cases where fast response is not necessary, a diode is a good solution. The thing to make sure of is the current rating. Be advised: The most common failure mode of diodes is they become a short circuit, so if it fails, you may start blowing fuses. :!: I'll pursue the Omron supply as a priority.

According to my '04 manual, the plugs are NGK BPR 6 ES You should be able to cross that over to a Champion or other brand, and find the hotter and colder options while you are at it. Among my pals, cars have been named Green Machine (my '67 Barracuda), Black Bastard (bad reliability), Wrinkle (numerous unrepaired fender benders, mostly drunk driving), Firepig (I always beat him drag racing with my Barracuda). I haven't owne my bike long enough for it to develop a personality, but thanks for the idea.

This is not to detract from the battery suspicion, but just to answer this question: Experience of others on this forum indicate that Tyco's are more reliable than Siemens. The GEI's are popular. They are made in China. My bike came with five Tyco's. Four of the relay circuits use only four of the pins. The five pin circuit for the starter solenoid is the only one using all five pins. According to the shop manual schematic, the five pin relays will plug in place of the four pin and simply not use the extra pin. That means you can keep a five pin relay and use it as a spare in any location. I keep a five pin Omron, made in the U.S.A., as a spare, taped to the frame next to the five working relays. Also, my spare fuse was only a ten amp unit. That's not enough to replace the starter 30 amp fuse, so I keep a couple spares of that rating with me too. If you buy any relays, make sure they are the sealed type.

The low tank level may be allowing the fuel to get hotter, and the space over the engine and intake air box as well, but that's a second order effect. High 80's temperature is the bigger factor on an air cooled engine. I suggest calibrating the TPS and synching the throttle bodies. The TPS signal is used by the ECU to set ignition timing. Another possibility is the heat range on the spark plugs. If they are running hot, that can assist pre-ignition.

The battery voltage will tell you how much charge it has. A rough guide is fully charged at 12.65 volts. Zero charge at 11.6 volts. This voltage must be measured after the battery has sat for several hours. The voltage will read high just after charging, so you have to wait for this "surface charge" to drain off. If it has been ridden, you can also drain off this surface charge by shutting the engine off, and keeping the headlight on for 3 minutes. Then shut everthing off and measure the voltage. If the voltage shows that the battery is charged, but it dies when you try to start, the battery is dead. If it is new, it has probably been sitting on a shelf for a couple of years. This will cause it to permanently lose its capacity, and will behave like a much smaller battery. Usually this is not something that can be cured, and a new battery is required. Make sure the new battery has come fresh from the factory. I bring my voltmeter along when buying a battery so I know how much of its charge has been lost while sitting in inventory. It makes a big difference in capacity and life. It's like buying fresh milk instead of stale. The better batteries have date codes on them, like our dairy products.

I heard from Ratchethack. He's OK, and his house was spared. Friends are helping each other out, and it's a little chaotic, but people are getting the necessities taken care of.

The one clue I want to respond to is the neutral light going off when attempting to start, and then slowly coming back on. If you were not holding the start button on while the light was slowly coming back on, it sounds like a loose connection to the battery, or a very weak battery. Relays can buzz if the circuit is trying to energize them with a weak battery. What happens is that when the relay turns on, it drags the battery voltage down, so it turns off. But then the battery is not loaded as much, so the voltage climbs back up and energizes the relay. The cycle repeats itself and causes the buzz.

That's really good at 80 mph! What viscosity oil do you use? Did you remap when you went to the Stucchi and Mistrals?

I run 87 octane unless it's hot outside and I expect to be bombing along at 70-90 on an interstate highway. Strangely, it did not ping at low RPM, where I would normally expect it to under heavy load. That's how I tested it the first time I used 87 octane. I thought I was safe, until I noticed some pinging at 4000-6000 RPM.

Has anyone heard from Ratchethack? I sent him a personal message. Usually he is right on it, but no response so far. I'm worried.

I made a kit for my '04 Cafe Sport and it works great. Instead of tapping off at the OE pressure switch, it leaves that intact, and taps off at the banjo fitting supplying the heads. Very easy to install, and no need to remove the tank. If you have a similar instrument panel, it is a bolt-on, and includes everything and the gauge mounting manifold. If your instrument panel is different, I could also supply just the fittings, hose, and adapter to replace the banjo bolt, with the gauge and housing supplied by egauges or other source, or I can supply that also. I recommend a glycerin filled gauge designed for high vibrations, rated at 100 psi, and with a 270 dial for easy reading. The hose I supply is specifically rated for high temperature and pressure. You can see pictures of it in the thread "Pressure Gauge Adapted" of August 29, 2007. Strangely enough, it is found by searching "Gauge adapted".

When used on Phillips head screws, the downward force of a manual (hammer driven) impact driver is a vital factor. Another method I have used with success on both Phillips and slot head screws is either leaning on the screw driver while turning it by the handle (or shaft if it's square) with pliers or a wrench. An old fashioned drilling brace is even better. I don't see that the downward force helps in the case of a socket head, and does not provide for any "feel" as to whether the head is rotating or the key or socket is stripping before too much damage is done. I first saw the serrated lockwashers on imported German equipment I was adding computer controlled metal injection systems to in the 80's. The Schnorr washers add the Belleville spring advantage to the serrations.

Tried that. Either to big or too small for the M6's. Might have worked on the rotor screws, but I didn't try that method.