Ryland3210

I wasn't impressed with the die cast Centauro levers I bought, either. In general, my experience with Italian die casting machine designs is that they are among the world's best, so the fault lies with the casting shop. The castings I received were, without exaggeration, of the lowest quality I had seen any company have the nerve to ship, with obvious missfills and blow holes. A heavy dose of sandblasting was used to attempt hiding them. I can't say I'm surprised to hear of voids in threaded areas. The heavy wall thicknesses required around threaded bosses are prone to missfills and shrinkage voids as they freeze late. It's a challenge even with the best process control.

If you are welding on the bike make sure to remove the ecu from the bike completely. You'll likely fry it (ala Ewan Mac) with the high current/frequency. Yes, and disconnect the battery. Sensors and electronic tach are also sensitive. The ground lead of the welder should be connected to the casting, and close to the repair area to minimize the risk of damaging them. A skilled welder experienced with welding on equipment with electronics involved will know this, but it's worth making sure.

Thanks, Ratch for the useful experience. My info. comes from the auto industry. I suppose the aversion to welding die cast aluminum in that case comes from their need to know whether it is a reliable production process. It has to work virtually every time to qualify. Certainly no harm in trying on a one of a kind basis. Be prepared for mini explosions if a local porosity void suddenly blows out of the metal as it softens under heat. Brazing (with a brass alloy by definition) would not apply to aluminum. It's used on higher melting point alloys than aluminum. Aluminum welding rod is the ticket. I had successfully repaired my Norton's engine casing with so-called aluminum epoxy in my early poverty days. When done right, this is a useful method of fixing cracks and leaking castings without resorting to welding. I didn't mention this option before, because I figured the repair had to be far stonger in this case, but while we are on the subject, I thought, why not.

I have designed and installed monitoring and control systems to the die casting industry for many years, right up to the present. That includes Italy, by the way. Welding is considered impossible because of the porosity inherent in the process. The exception are the castings produced by the vacuum based Alcoa/Audi Aluminum Intensive Vehicle Program, which I supplied the process systems for. There is a chance welding will work, but you have to be very lucky that the area is porosity free.

I was only pointing out that with a smart and fast enough ECU equipped with a model (it would have to be pretty sophisticated), one could achieve accurate mixtures without an MAP sensor. Since you're absolutely right about the alternative manufacturer's have chosen, namely to use more sensors, my conclusion is that they do that because they have not been able to create a reliable and accurate enough firmware model to eliminate them. Mine example was a mental exercise, not something I have actually seen done. Sensors based on strain gages applied to driveshafts has been off the shelf technology for many years. Yes it was a guess on my part that barometric pressure is sampled on the fly, because I do not know that for a fact. However, I consider the alternative of only sampling it on startup extremely unlikely. It's been fun, but I'm done too, unless you come up with more questions.

Uh-oh. You said screws (plural). As a reminder, if you did any part of that idle adjustment with the right idle screw, back it out and make up the difference with the left screw. Remember, that's what keeps the connecting rod in tension at idle to eliminate backlash, and keep the throttle in synch at idle and off idle.

I find myself wearing earplugs primarily because of wind noise. I find the high frequency of that at 65+ annoying. Perhaps that's why the high frequency content of the intake noise isn't perceived. I also run the Staintunes without baffles.

Your wording was: "The change is small but the vacuum rises as does RPM because the power output of the engine also rises. What happens when power goes up? Load goes down." So, it clearly says both RPM and power went up. But the real problem I have is that I have no idea what you mean by "load". The definition I am familiar with is that the load on a motor is whatever system it is intended to drive. In this case, the power delivered to the rear wheel. Let's say the bike is on level ground. If anything changes to make the engine produce more horsepower, the result will be for it to accelerate until the load increases (not decreases) to absorb the additional horsepower. In this example, that will be in the form of increased rolling and wind resistance. My guess is that the ECU is programed to sample barometric pressure on the fly, but as a lower priority than, for example, flywheel and TPS sensor positions, RPM, etc. If it only sampled on start up, it would not be able to compensate as one drove up and down mountains. That's the kind of problem which would generate lots of complaints, especially from riders buzzing around the Alps! The cure is simple enough. We all agree that our system is not the most accurate, but we obviously disagree on terminology and how to improve it. Assuming what is meant by "load" is the conventional engineering definition of the effort the engine is applying, then sensing that can be done with strain gages on the driveshaft and other means. However, if the goal is to optimize mixture (I think we agree on that), then a mass flow sensor is superior because it is measuring that directly, rather than using load as an input to a model, which at best is going to be based on some assumptions.

Add my name to the list of advocates. Without Pete's sloppage plate, oil pressure dropped precipitously at 4000-4500 RPM under max. acceleration in first gear on level ground with a rolling start (no wheelie), with 4 quarts of oil. Under the same conditions with the Roper plate, I could not make the pump starve. There is ample hard data to support the existence of the problem, and the fact that Pete's plate cures it, certainly level ground. On the question of how steep a grade would cause pump starvation, one could use dyno measurements to calculate the equivalent grade to first gear max. accels (which caused pump starvation), and second gear (which did not). Having said that, as the grade increases, how much acceleration would it take to cause starvation? Fuggeddaboudit! Go with Ratch's advice and install a Roper plate! Then refill with 4.5 quarts (just below his plate, with filter change).

Hi docc, You probably know this already, but keep the idle speed up to 1100 to 1200 to maintain oil pressure when the engine is hot. I'm really looking forward to how you make out on fuel economy. best, John

Water injection lowers the temperature of the intake air, thereby increasing its density, and providing a supercharging effect. Heavily loaded piston engine driven bombers during WWII used water injection to increase takeoff power. Claims were as high as 30% increase! Forty years ago, I used it on my '67 Barracuda by connecting my windshield washer hose to the carburettor intake. I agree with your example, so no need to experiment to convince me. It's simple physics, with real world proof. However, I'm confused by your saying the load goes down as RPM goes up. That makes no sense to me. Power output increases due to the increased mass flow rate of the air/fuel mixture (assuming that fuel flow is increased as the water is injected to keep up with the increased air mass flow rate), but that is independent of the load. By the way, doesn't the ECU include an absolute pressure sensor in addition to engine and air temperature? If so, our beloved fuel injection control system isn't all that dumb, and probably the only significant improvement in accuracy would derive from a mass flow sensor, rather than a MAP sensor.

I understand it the other way around. Mechanical efficiency is a function of volumetric efficiency. Actually, brake specific fuel consumption (mechanical efficiency) generally improves going uphill, unless one is going at WOT and redlining it. This is because the efficiency of spark ignition engines improves from idle through somewhere in the region of the middle of its RPM range and around 1/3-1/2 of its rated horsepower. For example, when going downhill at mid RPM, as compared to uphill, the engine friction is still there, but power output is low, and in addition, energy lost is increased along with intake manifold vacuum. It's also why my vehicles all get better MPG at 55 than they do at 30. All of this paragraph is in terms of the efficiency of power production of the engine, which is the conventional measure of mechanical efficiency. To make it clear, it is not about how much fuel it requires to to up versus down hill at a specific speed.

Dave, your interpretation of "proportional" is the normal one. Dan M's testing experience says otherwise. I'll make a change to the FAQ on that basis, although I'd sure like to take one of these beasts apart. What surprises me about Dan's data is two things: 1. I am familiar with hydraulic pressure control valves of many kinds, having designed systems based on them for many years. I'm aware of valves which vary the pressure proportionally with a reference pressure, but not one as Dan M describes. 2. Varying output pressure proportionally with reference pressure makes sense for this application. However, perhaps a proportional type regulator was tried and was found to experience early failures, as Dan M has suggested, and a new type of valve with only two modes was created in an attempt to make them last longer.

The relief setting is approximately 65 psi. When the oil is cold, it can exceed that. For example, at 32 F, upon starting my bike it went to 80 psi at about 2000 RPM. I slowed the engine back down, because it was still climbing. When hot, for example on the highway at 3,000 RPM with outside temperature about 95, it ran around 55 psi. At 1150 idle RPM, it varies from 25 psi when hot to 45 psi under normal conditions. This is on my Cafe Sport when it had 2500 miles on it, running 20W50 oil. Here's a link you may find useful: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...e+gauge+adapted

See the FAQ section for mounting options. Also, www.motratech.com

Replace the plastic head temperature sensor with a brass holder, and fill pocket with conductive copper based anti-seize. Greg Field can supply the holder. Permatex brand has a higher copper content than others. Check the FAQ section for tipover valve orientation to avoid the dreaded "tank suck". Check the wiring to the taillight. On some bikes, including the '04 Cafe Sport I own, it was pinched by the steel bracket. This has been known to eventually short out. If the hoses to the bottom center of the tank were fastened with crimp on clamps, cut the hose about 10-12 inches below the tank, and use a splice with two hose clamps so the next time you have to remove the tank, it will be easier. Check the aluminum insulation glued under the tank to see if the glue is coming loose. Elsewhere in the Forum, a 3M product was recommended to keep it fastened. I found it: it is 3M Super77. If you decide to take off the airbox cover and hold the filter in place with an aftermarket kit, the Guzzi glue has been reported to come undone, and the insultation drops down to block flow to the filter.

Nice job! Just what the doctor ordered for long rides!

Consider alternative filters with better gasket designs,-see the FAQ Section.

All right, I'm going to take this up a notch! I'd like for the moment to narrow the discussion to the effect of load on airflow. Let's suppose that TP angle and RPM are constant, but load changes as you suggest. For RPM to stay constant, something else would have to change. For example, fuel delivery. In this case, a map sensor would have no way to directly know load had changed in order to maintain constant RPM, so we have an imaginary situation. Another way airflow could change would be for atmospheric pressure, temperature, humidity etc. to change, all of which affect density and viscosity. Manifold vacuum is not directly proportional to load, it is inversely proportional to load. I think I know what you mean, but let's not confuse cause and effect. It's not that somehow a change in load causes a change in manifold vacuum (by what mechanism I cannot conceive), it's that to maintain constant RPM, a change in manifold vacuum caused by a change in throttle position/fuel delivery is required. Here's the bottom line for me: All other things being equal except for throttle position and RPM, the only way load can instantaneously affect airflow is if the rate of change of RPM is so fast that the change in time between stokes is significant compared to the time it takes sound to travel from the intake valve to the butterfly. Since I believe that is not the case, I still maintain that once again, a smart and fast ECU with appropriate model can do without a MAP. So why to they exist? Because it can better compensate for variations in atmospheric pressure, filter pressure drop, and throttle restriction versus position than systems which only sense one or two of these variables. Moreover, it can do the job of all three with a single sensor. My understanding is that MAP sensors can more accurately control mixture not because they somehow sense load, but due to reasons above.

The brass adapter is quite massive, and conducts heat very well. I taped my fins to prevent the adapter somewhat from spot cooling that part of the head, thereby depressing the temperature of the sensor. I don't worry about it getting too hot, because even if insulation were wrapped around the fitting, it's conductivity would not let its temperature rise any more than the head itself.

Seeking knowledge for it's own sake, with or without practical application, is a joy for some. Every so often, some finding which seems useless at the time, becomes valuable later on.

Thanks for the clarification. As I understand it, the switchover occurs around 13"Hg, and has a hysterisis of 1-2"Hg. I think Dave missed my point that I was speaking of instantaneous RPM. Of course, as soon as that changes, even at fixed throttle position, airflow will change. I do not understand how a map sensor can sense load, nor how load changes airflow at a particular combination of throttle opening and RPM. The only difference load makes is how fast RPM changes for that combination. On the other hand, I maintain that a smart enough (and fast enough) ECU could calculate load without an map sensor, provided it has the other inputs I mentioned before with a suitable model of the bike's power output and mass, by sensing the rate of change of RPM. F=m*a. That would assume a known rider mass, however, so maybe a sensor under the seat would be needed for better accuracy! Either that, or the ECU would need to be user programmable for rider weight.

Thanks, Ratch. I wish I had known about this potential problem a while back, but I guess maybe my '04 used better adhesive, since I haven't noticed any problem when hot-rodding. Nevertheless, I'm going to pull the tank off to make sure. I wonder what difference there may be between our bikes, because I haven't noticed any intake noise! I actually like to hear some moaning from intakes when I gun it. It reminds me of another pleasurable activity.

You got it! A procedure for calibrating it and synchonizing the throttle bodies can be found in the "How To" section when you're ready for that. Make sure your intake boots are leak tight and adjust the valves before considering that procedure.

Thanks, Dan, for the info. on how this regulator actually works. It surprises me. Did you make note of the actual manifold vacuum at idle? If so, what was it? Can you clarify that you meant to say the threshhold is really only 1-2" Hg or is it 15"? If it is the lower value, it would be affecting the regulator virtually all the time. It would require a pretty free flowing air filter and WOT at low RPM for manifold vacuum to drop below 1-2" Some comments: I thought the need for a fast enough ECU went without saying, but it is important to note. If you believe it would work with a single carb setup, it seems to me the equivalent is connecting the regulator to a tee which connects to both intakes, as is actually shown in the diagram. An ECU could do pretty well without an air flow/map sensor if it was "smart" enough to contain a model of the engine's flow characteristics and provided it at least has an absolute atmospheric pressure and temperature sensor. That leaves out relative humidity which a map sensor would take into account. On the question of fatigue, the degree of dampening out the pulses depends on the size of the orifice and the volume contained in the hoses and regulator. The tradeoff of having the orifice large enough relative to the volume to provide a fast enough response time is the tricky one. Are you aware of any actual data on why the connection was discontinued? Was it actually wear and tear on the regulator, or simply that later models have refined mapping that accomplishes the same thing? Maybe the relocation of the regulator to inside the tank made connection to the intake manifold too inconvenient.