Ryland3210

Once the cover is removed, it's obvious. Cheers, John

Wearing light clothing and depending on a heated vest is a potential risk, as you say, but nothing stops one from using the heated vest AND winter insulation. A temperature controller can be used to reduce the power consumption to what is needed to stay warm. The wind chill factor standing still waiting for help is less than riding a motorcycle, to say the least. Riding + heated vest + insulated clothing = standing still + insulated clothing. Weather is different in Southern California from the frosty north. It was below freezing this morning at my house, and it's only mid-October. I took the following data earlier today on current draw and voltage versus RPM with Widder vest and gloves connected on my '04 Cafe Sport, standard lights and accessories. Amps at 12.4 volts, engine off: 4.7 Pump, coils and injectors (rose to 5.05 at high RPM) 4.68 Headlight (high beam), stop and tail lights 0.42 Ignition switch .063-.189 ECU 1.44 Parking lights 11.44 Total Bike Load, assuming ECU at 0.2 amps. 4.86 Widder vest and gloves (62.3 watts at 12.6 volts, 77 watts at 14 volts) 16.3 Grand total. Next, the Widder vest and gloves were connected, temperature control bypassed to draw maximum power, and volts versus RPM measured: RPM Volts Alternator Amps per manual 1300 12.85 15 1500 13.15 16.5 2400+ 13.84 22.0 The alternator output specified by the manual correlates quite well with the 13.15 volt output at 1500 RPM and the 16.3 amp load. My conclusion is that unless I spend a long time at 1100 RPM idle, there is no risk of discharging the battery under reasonable driving conditions, even with the gloves and vest on full power. I see no need to keep the rev's any higher than 1500 when cruising (except it's more tractable at higher revs anyway). The alternator appears to be able to handle the entire load without help from the battery at anything of 1300 or above. At 2400 RPM, there is a reserve capacity of 5.7 amps for accessory equipment. At 12.6 volts, that's 72 watts reserve. Maybe I'll get some heated socks. Now keep in mind that these measurements are on one bike. Some margin for bike to bike variation and clothing drawing more power should be made, and note that alternator output drops fast below 1300 RPM.

Hi docc, It was easy to figure on my Venture, because the service manual gave the power consumption of every component on the bike, so I could simply add it all up. The issue with checking to see if the voltage is at anything below 13 volts, it is difficult to know whether the battery is absorbing current or pumping it out. An accurate way would be to connect a low resistance ammeter between the battery and the loads to measure the current draw and the voltage at the same time. Multiplying volts times amps equals watts. I have a way to measure the power drawn by my Widders, and can also see at what RPM the alternator can keep the battery charged with them connected, and everything else turned on. Hopefully, I'll be able to get to that over the weekend.

Fantastic!

Hi Docc, I couldn't find anything in the manual to give a clue to the current drawn by the ECU, fuel pump, and any other non-lighting loads there may be. Is there any data on these to your knowledge? With that missing information, an accurate calculation could be made. BTW, wattage specs on clothing may have a significant tolerance, or may be rated at a lower voltage than 13.5 so it will draw more than 99 watts, etc.

WitchCityBallabio identified the cause of fuse blowing on the lighting circuit on his bike. Also found the same potential short circuit on my Cafe Sport, so I thought this deserved its own thread, since it may be a pervasive issue. Sorry if this has been covered before, but I haven't seen it. The stoplight circuit uses the same fuse as the headlight on my bike, so it could be a very unpleasant lights out situation if the cable shorts out at night. Our cables were pinched between the fender and the steel bracket it is mounted to. It was pinched so hard that I had to pry the fender away from the bracket to slide the cable sideways and tie-wrap it to the bracket to keep it from harm's way. Luckily, my cable was still intact, but it was only a matter of time before that would have ended up shorted, like WitchCityBallabio's was. To gain access to this is simple. Just remove the two screws and two nuts holding the plastic cover under the fender behind the stop light.

Callison gave the answer on the Gerbing unit. I agree that it should be efficient. When I looked into that, I could not get an answer on the modulation frequency. Perhaps I'm overly cautious, but with the warnings about sleeping under electric blankets, I did not want to be surrounded by an an inductive field of unknown frequency. Our practice at home is to preheat the bed in winter, use a comforter, and turn off the electric blanket when we get into bed. That wouldn't work on a motorcycle! My preference is therefore a thermostatic switch that turns on an off at a much lower frequency. It's low tech, and may not be as reliable as an electronic unit, but will be slightly more efficient. Thanks for the complement on my bike. I took the fairing off because I prefer having the wind hit my chest, rather than focused like a firehose into my face. The fairing was fine at 85 MPH when I ducked under it, but I hardly ever cruise that way. However, when I got the chance, I found that I could cruise comfortably at 90-95 for quite a long time without the benefit of the fairing. I also like the leaner look of the bike. I also took off the steering damper and lowered the triple clamps on the fork tubes to speed up the handling.

It's a very different flow condition in the heads. The purpose of doing it in the inlet passage is to prevent the flow from "sticking" to the walls so it "slides" by faster, in a manner of speaking. My gut feeling is that it would not be beneficial at all within the combustion chamber, but that is just a "gut" feeling.

In the workshop manual for the V11 Sport, there is a graph of output current versus RPM. Here are some numbers: RPM Amps 1000 9.5 2000 20 3000 23.5 4000 25 5000 26 6000 26.5 10000 27.5 The output drops off fast below 3000 RPM, and does not increase much above that. Elsewhere, it states the output voltage is 14 to 14.6. At the average of 14.3 volts, it delivers 336 watts at 3000 RPM. Example: If an electric heated vest and jacket combo is rated at 99 watts at 12.6 volts, it will consume 112 watts at 14.3 volts, or 7.9 amps. Therefore, it is important to know what voltage the clothing is rated at so you can calculate the current. The bottom line is that if the alternator cannot deliver enough current to supply the load, the battery will eventually be discharged.

I use the Widder vest and gloves. Quite happy with both. The gloves are bulkier than Gerbings, but that's more insulation, so I appreciate that. I like the heated collar on the vest and the suede on the back of the forefingers for wiping face shield/goggles. I also like the combination of leather palms and fingers for flexibility and Gore Tex fabrid for the rest. Be sure to get a temperature controller to cut power consumption, especially with the higher power consumption of the Gerbings, if you go that way. Avoid the simple and cheap rheostat controls. The on/off and electronic types waste less power.

Sure enough! the tailight cable was routed down the centerline of the fender, so it was pinched hard between the steel bracket and fender. It was only a matter of time before it shorted out. I re-routed it and tie-wrapped it to the bracket out of harm's way. Thanks again for preventing an inevitable problem.

I think the guy you referred to is on the right track. In die casting it was found that a "pebbled" surface, with the "pebble" diameter around 20-30 thou, substantially increased the flow of metal, to the surprise of the die caster. They had expected the customer's request for that surface finish to make filling the casting cavity difficult. I'm not sure what the optimum diameter of the dimples should in an intake passage.

Both vest and gloves were on the same circuit, controlled with the controller. The controller was an electronic on/off type. There are also rheostat types, but they are less efficient, and waste energy. I had only a shirt under the vest, then sweater and a winter coat on top of that, so I think I had more insulation than what you describe.

The mass of the working fluid could be kept quite low compared to the mass of the typically steel pump and motor. Engine braking would remain, as the motor and pump reverse roles in deceleration. Open chains are far more maintenance free these days, with O-Ring varieties commonplace. I agree with all your other points. Also, there are the belt drives, also more efficient than gears, which are virtually maintenance free. If I had my way, my Guzzi would have a belt drive.

I would like very much to see the image made small enough so the slider doesn't appear in the bottom of my window. It's annoying to have to move it back and forth to see everything.

The downside is less efficiency. For the heavier bikes, a simple 4 way valve would also provide reverse. While we are at it, how about eliminating the transmission too, and replacing it with a variable displacement pump.

Greg's 12.5 volts is a bit scary, since that's below a fully charged battery's open circuit voltage. It indicates the battery is being somewhat discharged. My suggestion is to invest in a temperature controller and wear insulation outisde the vest. That way, you can turn down the thermostat and reduce the current consumption. You'll be more comfortable as well.

Hi docc, My practice is also to check the connectors to see whether they have relaxed and need crimping again. I have read elsewhere the suggestion to apply silicon grease to connectors. While that may prevent corrosion and moisture getting in, it is a dielectric insulator after all. Your suggestion to use copper antiseize makes more sense to me. There is also a marine grade heat shrink, which does a great job of protection, but also is more difficult to remove if necessary.

Hi Hal, I really enjoyed the ride with yourself and our pals from Great Barrington to Marsh's. My ride home went fine, and I hope yours did too. I stopped at Cliff's in Danbury and had a nice technical chat at the Dyno Solution's setup with John Tavolacci. A great way to take a break. My bike built up a lot of vacuum as delivered, but zero since the tipover valve orientation was corrected. I wonder if your valve isn't restricted in some way. If it is a check valve, that would explain the increase in pressure. Funny that I haven't experienced any pressure build up either before or after the fix. The Omron relay came in today. It's made in the U.S.A., which surprised me. I was expecting Japan, where Omron is headquartered. I was happy to see all the terminals sealed off with something that looked like epoxy, and that could well be, even though the part number was not the "dustproof" model. It worked fine when I plugged it into the starter socket. However, I've discovered another Omron part with an even higher contact rating, so I'm looking into getting that version. Cheers, John

Hi Doug, What do I have to remove to get to this chafing point? Cheers, John

Thank you Doug! I'll look into this pronto on my '04 Cafe Sport.

I would agree not to use an old Siemens as a spare. In my case, they are Tyco's. When I replace these with the Omrons (provided the sample expected this week is satisfactory), I plan on keeping the old Tyco's as spares. Why? Because they are relatively new, and I know they were working when I removed them, making them "known good ones". Although generally, relays are reliable as shipped from the factory, whether they are "known good" depends on whether the factory actually tested them, and whether they have been sitting in storage under good conditions to prevent contact contamination.

I purchased my new leftover '04 at a huge discount. The timing was right. I knew about some of the reliability issues because I had researched this forum, so I was prepared for all the bugs except the seat interference with the battery, which I discovered myself. The dealer took care of that under warrantee. The only failure I've had in the year and one half I've owned it is the speedo cable, and low fuel warning lamp, which I knew were coming. With the forward foot position controls I designed and made, I can ride all day in comfort, and the bike has always started without any problem. One thing I learned about starting is that it starts much quicker with the throttle opened slightly. Since synchronizing the throttle bodies and calibrating the TPS, economy has jumped from 38 up to 41 mpg, which is not too bad. I put an oil pressure gauge on as well. When warmed up, oil pressure will drop to 20 psi at an idle speed of 1150 RPM, and that is with 20W50 oil. When I took delivery, the bike was set to idle at 600, which is bad for the clutch, and oil pressure dropped practically out of sight. I would not go below 15W40 even in winter. If you are worried about starting on a very cold morning, and have the bike in an unheated area, here's a trick from an old-timer: Back in the 70's, when it was not unusual for it to be minus 15 in the morning, I never had any problem starting my '63 Olds. I would put a 60 watt drop light under the oil pan controlled by a standard timer. The timer was set to turn on an hour or two before I needed to drive to work. That worked wonders, and the engine warmed up much faster as well. If the weather prediction was for 10 below or less, I would add a blanket draped over the engine. By the way, I used straight 40 weight all year round, and the engine had a 10:1 compression ratio. I still use the light bulb heater to help get my Jeep started to plow the driveway. It's amazing how well it works.