Ryland3210

Thanks for the kind words. You've certainly had an interesting career. Yeah, it was great working for a company that always strove to be the best at what they did. HP's manaagement by objectives was enlightened compared to theory X, prevalent at the time, in which decisions were driven top down, similar to the military. They also let engineers like me get involved in marketing and production, which helped stimulate many to become entrepreneurs, just like Dave and Bill. In spite of losing people as they spun off on their ownt, the company prospered nevertheless. Several of the people in my division started their own successful companies, one of which was the world's first word processor. The audio generator figured strongly in Walt Disney's early cartoon production, though I never found out how. A large government contract around WWII timeframe gave them the chance to grow. I admire Bill Hewlett for being the one director to steadfastly objected to the merger with Compaq, while Carly, the CEO of Compaq and the other directors voted to give themselves huge bonuses just for doing the deal. Bill was absolutely right when he asked why would HP want to increase its participation in the highly competitive, low margin PC business. He was thinking about the shareholders. Carly and the others were thinking about the bonuses. I have owned HP stock since I worked there. It took years after Bill lost the battle before Carly was fired and the company turned around. I am grateful for all HP taught me and the encouragement they gave me to strike off on my own when I was ready. We had tremendous freedom to innovate, and to use the company's facilities for personal projects. I used the degreasing pit to clean my carburettors, and once even my Harley's engine block. That was nothing compared to the guy who ran the plating shop that plated all the bright work on his Harley in gold, again all with the blessing of management. There was a monthly bonus system that averaged about 30% of base salary. We were the highest productivity division, largely because of enlightened management and the dedication of all of us. I designed and built an electronic distributor and voltage regulator before these were available on the market, all with the blessing of management. Too bad I didn't patent either one. I still have the distributor. I'm impressed you got your Ham license. I got as far as to set up a short wave radio, and got a kick out of listening to broadcasts from Europe, and from Radio Moscow's English language propaganda. It's an indication of our Nation's self confidence that their signal wasn't jammed, while Moscow tried its best to jam Radio Free Europe.

One more comment: At the New York Motorcycle show last month, the rep at the Guzzi booth told me that all the new models except the Nevada have oil filters which are externally accessable. Earlier models, including my '04, had the oil filter within the sump, which meant one had to remove an access cover in the bottom of the sump, or remove the entire sump to get to it. There have been numerous threads on the cause of these oil filters loosening up and causing bottom end damage on quite a few bikes. I'm not sure exactly which model year the change was made. If you decide to buy a Guzzi with the older style filter location, be sure to educate yourself this issue. Everything you need to know is in threads in this forum.

Welcome, Firecracker, I've owned and ridden bikes of many varieties for many years. I love my '04 Cafe Sport. Like you, I sought advice from this wonderful forum on which model to purchase, and am very pleased with the outcome. The particular model I chose is only a personal preference for the tradeoffs. I also have received lots of generous and patient advice on simple improvements to make on the original to prevent long term problems. I'm sure you'll receive loads of good info. There are many experts participating in this forum, as you'll soon see. I'm a relative newcomer. I have been keeping files on many topics related to the V11 series newer than 2002. I would be willing to send you once you make a decision, but you would have to be specific, because there are too many to send them all. Good luck, John

Clearly understood, Gary. I started using voltmeters and designing instruments working at HP in the 60's. I still occasionally design circuits, mostly in the high performance closed loop controls area. It's clear you and I have a thorough understanding of the theory and practice of voltmeters. My concern was to clear up any uncertainty our friend with the problem might have with "In most cases ... " being non specific. That's why I wanted to let him know that in his case, for the range of voltages and current involved, he didn't have to worry.

In simple meters, the battery is used only for resistance measurements, so the volt and amp ranges will work with a dead battery. Although it's true the shunt resistance will affect measurements of current, in a 12 volt system, the shunt resistance will be low enough that the voltage drop will be small compared to 12 volts accross the shunt. Therefore the readings will be accurate enough for measuring leakage currents in the 10-20 milliamp range or higher within something like 10% accuracy. That should be fine for your purpose.

Impedance is the combination of resistance, inductive reactance and capacitive reactance making up a load. Let's say the voltmeter spec says, for example, that the input impedance is 1 megohm across 20 picofarads capacitance. The time constant of the input is R X C, or 20 microseconds. The human eye cannot see anything that fast. That means that for measurements of DC voltages observed by the meter, the 20 pF capacitance is negligible, and it might as well be zero, so the input acts like a pure resistance to the eye. If you were measuring a 60 Hertz AC voltage, the capacitive reactance of the 20 pF capacitor is 136 megohms. (the formula is 1 divided by ( 2 X PI X FREQUENCY X CAPACITANCE)) Since it is in parallel with the 1 megohm resistance, it decreases the load impedance about 0.7%. So at low frequencies, there is very little difference, whether measuring DC or AC. At a frequency of 6,000 Hz, the capacitive reactance drops to 1.36 megohms, so the load is then 0.576 megohms-big difference. Inductive reactance is equal to 2 X PI X FREQUENCY X INDUCTANCE, so it is zero at DC and increases with frequency. Resistance is constant for all frequencies and DC. Bottom line is that for voltmeters, the resistive component of the input impedance is all that matters for DC measurements. Hope I didn't bore you to death on the way to the bottom line!

I can offer the following: In the case of some automobiles I own, when the battery is disconnected, the feedback loops which control fuel air ratio go back to the factory default settings. The ECU then has to relearn how to optimize the tuning as the car is driven. I don't know if that is the case with Guzzi's, but my guess is that the models using Lambda sensors also have that issue, while the ones without the sensor are open loop so disconnecting the battery makes no difference. So in the latter case, your leakage could be eliminated by having a relay energized when the ignition is turned on. Its contacts would then simply be wired in series with the supply to the ECU. Many relays come with two sets of contacts, so to get a little extra reliability, you could contect both sets of contacts in parallel. If you want to be kind to your ignition switch, connect a silicon diode, rated at more than the coil current, across the relay coil with the black stripe (cathode) connected to the Ignition (plus) side of the coil and other side to the ground side of the coil. Make sure the pull in and drop out voltages of the relay coil are going to work below 6 volts, and 5 would be better so the ECU doesn't drop out on you when hard starting with a weak battery, but without overheating at 14.4

One caviat: If the voltmeter used is a high impedance type, even high and acceptable leakage resistance will read a significant voltage. For example, suppose the voltmeter impedance is 1 million ohms, which is not uncommon for battery powered types, often even 5 or 10 times higher. Assume the battery voltage is 12 volts, and the voltmeter reads 6 volts between the positive terminal and a particular lead. That means the leakage current is 6 microamps-which is negligible. Suppose it is an inexpensive, non battery powered voltmeter with a meter movement rated at 10 milliamps full scale. Then the leakage current is still only 10 milliamps if the needle is at full scale, less than that if less than full scale. That's still less than half of the typical battery self discharge rate with nothing connected. If an ammeter is not available, the next best thing is an ohmmeter. A leakage rate of 24 milliamps at 12 volts, which is about the self discharge rate on my "good" battery, corresponds to 12/.024, or 500 ohms. If a resistance of less than 200 ohms is read, I would consider that something to track down. At 40 ohms, your battery will be dead in less than two days.

That's pretty high leakage. I can see why a disconnect switch would be a real plus on your '00. I could probably answer your question if you could supply the relevant parts of the schematic.

You might save yourself some trouble. I was going to hook up a disconnect switch until I measured the leakage current. I just measured the leakage on mine. It's only 1.12 milliamps! What that means is that the self discharge rate on my battery of just over 22 milliamps is the main factor. That just saved me the trouble of hooking up a disconnect switch, but it means I'll have to check my battery voltage every week or so. Is your electrical circuit different from my '04 Sport so I has more leakage?

If your voltmeter has a current measuring ability, I suggest the following: Disconnect all the wires connected to the positive battery terminal, then measure the current drawn by each, one at a time by connecting the ammeter in between the terminal and the wire to find where the current draw is. Your battery's capacity should be in the range of 12-15 amp-hours, so that corresponds to a discharge rate of about 500 milliamps (0.5 amps) to fully discharge it in 24 hours. I just measured the leakage on mine. It's only 1.12 milliamps! What that means is that the self discharge rate on my battery of just over 21 milliamps is the main factor. That just saved me the trouble of hooking up a disconnect switch, but it means I'll have to recharge the battery every week to 10 days. Your bike is three years older than mine, so it's possible that something on your's remains connected with the ignition off by design, that is disconnected on my bike. But anything more than 10-20 milliamps would cause even a good battery to discharge in a week or two. If you had left everything connected, my best guess would be that the ECU or ignition circuit is somehow staying on when the ignition switch is turned off, but that's really a guess. Discharging in 24 hours as you describe with nothing connected indicates something serious is wrong with the battery.

I like the wall timer insurance against over charging. It's still important to remember to disconnect the charging leads if the charger is the kind that has rectifier diodes that provide leakage paths when it isn't charging.

I don't know if the metals used in the PC545 are different from a typical lead acid battery, but I think they are chemically very close, based on what I've read about them. Ordinary lead acid batteries will take on a so-called "suface charge" when fully charged. It takes very few amp-hours to discharge this down to the range of 12.6 to 12.85 volts. At point, the rate of voltage drop versus amp-hours decreases much slower. This surface charge will usually dissapate merely by leaving the battery at rest, engine off, for a few hours. Then the voltage will give a true indication of battery state of charge. When I'm in a hurry, after the engine is off, I'll turn on the headlights for 3 minutes, turn them off, wait a couple more minutes, then check the voltage. A rule of thumb is that battery voltage is 12.8 at full charge, and 11.80 at close to zero charge. Temperature effects voltage, too, but not much. There are other threads that get into these second order details. I've had a new Yuasa YTX 15L in my bike in drydock for about 3 months. The bike is virtually new, so I didn't think there was signficant electrical leakage. That battery discharged down to 12.05 volts in about 3 weeks, which is a lot faster than any of the car batteries I have stored for the winter. That calculates out to a leakage rate of 22.3 milliamps. Since I discovered that, I disconnected it. I'm interested in the Red Baron's leakage current measurements. I wonder if the Yuasa failure after only two monts was caused simply by a relatively fast leakage rate. If the battery heavily discharged in between rides, it would have been jolted with a major current dump once the bike was started. Letting a battery discharge let's say to about 25%, and then recharging it many times will not do any battery any good, especially if given a fast charge. Unless I'm in a desparate hurry, if I know a battery is seriously discharged, I'll recharge it at 1/10 its amp-hour capacity or less instead of jumpstarting. This avoids the charging circuit hitting the battery with high amps when the engine starts. My batteries usually last 8-10 years on cars, and 5 years on bikes. Even longer on my Norton Commando once I installed a battery cutoff switch. It was where I could reach down to it while seated. Until I did that, the Zener voltage regulator diode and alternator rectifier leakage reduced life to two seasons at best. I had the bike for 30 years, and all that data is on unsealed Yuasa Batteries. If the Guzzi didn't have so many connections to the battery terminals, I'd set up a cutoff switch for sure.

You have brought up another problem-the educational system. For example, why on earth isn't an explanation of the various economic systems part of core curriculum. Unless parents teach it themselves, our high school kids graduate clueless about how free enterprise works, how the right to own property, and other aspects of a free economy provide the best living standard in the world, and how advantageous it is against socialism, fascism, and communism. Meanwhile, remember Perot's "Giant sucking sound" speach on how NAFTA would move jobs to Mexico? Remember Clinton's using executive power to drain our gold reserves and send it to Mexico to bail them out when Congress refused to make more bad loans to them? Remember his speech as he granted China most favored nation trade status to open the floodgates of Chinese imports? Remember how he explained it was a good deal for America because the Chinese were going to import computers and corn from us? Remember the defense secret scandal that gave the Chinese some of our most sensitive technology? Notice the recent Chinese success at the "Star Wars" destruction of one of their satellites? Of course, not all the blame goes to him. The succeeding Congress and administrations have done nothing to stop the bleeding of the American manufacturing base. Hordes still shop at Walmart and other massive importers of Chinese goods, saving money today, with no concern for the effect on the erosion of manufacturing jobs back here. That ought to stir up the coals of debate- my vote is to keep it going. I'm all in favor of moving this over to Banter, dlaing, can you do it?

I can't speak for others, but first of all, I'm not sure anti communist sentiments are politically correct these days. The original communist ideals, which included democratic elections, were decent. Unfortunately, when all ownership and control of capital is monopolized by a central government, it has always been the case that currupt dictators work their way into that position, and we have seen what happens. Political correctness has no on my positions. I just don't believe it is good practice or wise to reward autocratic regimes, whatever their political system might be, if I can possibly avoid it. I prefer to help friends rather than former enemies that change their stripes to have free access to our markets while screaming about the defects they perceive our free market system to have.

Correction: According to Yuasa's website, the dimensions for the YTX 15L BS are that same as those I gave for the YTX 15L, namely 6-7/8 X 3-7/16 X 5-1/8. The only difference is factory prep. Since there is an interference issue, the extra 3/16" width and 1/8" height is important, at least on some bikes. It was with my '04 Sport.

The Yuasa YTX 15L has correct polarity but interferes. Dimensions are 6.875 X 3.347 X 5.125 The MG service replacement Yuasa YTZ 12S has reversed polarity with dimensions of 6.0 X 3.437 X 4.375. It is small enough to avoid the seat rib interference, but may still interfere the seat base towards the front of the bike. Can't say for sure whether that is the case. The WP13-12NE dimensions are 6.88 X 3.25 X 5.06 with the same polarity as the YTX 15L. In my mind, it is doubtful that the 1/16 shorter height and 3/16 shorter thickness provide sufficient clearance, but I might be wrong about that. As far as the price is concerned, the YTX 15L cost within a few bucks, and has more capacity, so that's not a significant difference in value. Personally, I'm not a big fan of unions either, when they get greedy or misguided enough to destroy the companies they work in. However, I would much rather send my money to a democracy that does not summarily outlaw unions, than a communist country where anything can be made illegal at the whim of the dictators that run it, and the punishment for disobedience can be unrestrained. Communist countries have a consistent track record of unlimited brutality when the power of the central government is challenged. I think it was Macchiavelli that said, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

FWIW, once I showed my dealer the Yuasa advice on the factory prepared version, and where they could be obtained up north, that convinced him of my credibility. He then agreed to purchase it from a Bombadier supplier in Canada (not available at least at that time anywhere in the U.S.) and was kind enough to have it drop shipped directly to me. I shared my findings about the seat interference with him, together with the fact that the factory prepared battery was far from fully charged as received, and the importance of avoiding charging at high rates. I hope that saved him and his customers some grief.

Hi Gary, I agree with you wholeheartedly on the importance of using proper charging procedures, especially with sealed varieties. I have lots of seasonal toys, vehicles, tractors, mowers, etc. to maintain batteries for. My procedure is to check voltage regularly. When they drop to about 50%, I recharge them the number of hours at a slow charge rate to bring them back to 100%. I generally find they need recharging about once every 2-4 weeks. I have found that this extends battery life substantially. When I get around to it, I hope to find a charger which I can rely upon not to overcharge. When that happens, my plan is to charge the weaker batteries to the point they are all at the same voltage, then connect them together and use a single high quality charger to maintain them. I'm interested if you have any comments on this? To summarize my whole experience on the leaking battery adventure, as I think I said earlier in this thread, I strongly suspect the dealer gave the battery a quick charge. However, in my case it wasn't just a wet spot. Enough liquid had leaked out to overflow the rubber tray and drip over the exhaust pipe and the rear suspension. Once I investigated the whole situation and found the seat bearing on the battery, I fixed that while I was at it. I insisted the dealer send me a factory prepared battery because I didn't want to take a chance on their charging method a second time, and because it was recommended by Yuasa) I would have preferred an Odyssey, but it was the dealer's call, and it still would have required the mod's to provide clearance under the seat. The factory prepared battery was received only partly charged, so I topped it off at 0.8 amps to stay well below the recommended limit. No problems since then.

I believe you will if your seat and battery bracket are the same as mine. It's not difficult.

Beware of the seat base contacting the battery. A month after delivery, the dealer supplied Yuasa leaked. The battery was replaced, but I wondered why the battery installed by the dealer upon delivery had leaked so soon. I had to modify the battery bracket AND take a dremel tool to the seat rib to clear the replacement. I do not know which models have this issue. On my '04 Cafe Sport both the PC 545 and Yuasa YTX15L or YTX15L-BS have thicknesses exceeding the available battery compartment. If you have the same interference issue but do not want to modify your bike, then seriously consider getting the metal jacket version. For details, see the thread I started on the subject do horizontal batteries always leak. If requested, I can supply pictures of the mod's I made. No problems with the YTX15L (factory prepared, available imported from Canada) since I made the mod's last April. good luck, John

Gee, all I wanted to do was report on the results of my analysis and solution to the leaking battery interference problem on my '04 Sport. Somehow the other thread discussion migrated over here. On bikes where the seat contacts the battery, that can't be good for the battery. Several of the batteries recommended by various sources had the same interference problem. I'm concerned this information will get lost among the present discussion in this thread. Perhaps a summary of this problem and details on battery dimensions versus space together with the solution belong under the FAQ or How To Section.

After 8 months of service, I am happy to report that there have been no problems with leakage or otherwise with the dealer supplied, factory prepared, Yuasa YTX15L battery installed in my '04 Sport last April 2006. I believe the previous battery leaked because the seat base rib transferred my weight directly to the battery case. I do not know whether other models have this interference issue, but it would be wise to check this out. I was lucky to spot the crystalized Sulfuric Acid on the rear end while the leak was still minor. FYI, I'm no heavyweight at 145 pounds.

I'm surprised to hear this on a dry plate clutch. I used to have some problems with my Norton's wet plate multi disc clutch, but what's the cause in this case?

I just finished tie wrapping the valve to keep it vertical. It wasn't easy because the tubing was clamped to the tank fitting with a one-time use crimped steel band. Perhaps other models just had the hose slip onto a barb fitting, as was the case with the adjacent drain hose on my bike. I decided to cut the steel clamp off. It looked extremely difficult to keep the tubing from the valve to the tank short enough to avoid the spaghetti effect and still be able to get to the replacement clamp to tighten it. I ended up cutting the lower hose section so I could elevate the tank high enough to get to the new clamp. Next, I lowered the tank to tie wrap the valve in the vertical position, and finally reconnected the lower hose with a brass bib connector and a pair of clamps. With the tank back in place, these two clamps are well hidden.