Ryland3210

Pressure and flow are never "equivalent" in any application, any more than torque and RPM are equivalent-no argument there. The pump in the Guzzi is a fixed displacement type, as I believe I mentioned earlier. Except for pump leakage (which should be less with higher viscosity in any case) flow rate will be independent of viscosity, so what is the basis for your comment that "less of it is going where it is needed."? At higher viscosity and constant flow rate, of course pressure will be higher simply because of Bernoulli's equation, unless the pressure relief valve were ideal, and would maintain constant pressure regardless of viscosity or flow rate. Clearly it isn't, and it increases the pressure supply with both flow and viscosity. So, are you implying that a higher percentage of the flow is bypassed by the pressure relief valve? If that is your basis, are you still of the opinion that the bearings are not receiving adequate oil, even though the pressure of the oil delivered to them is higher?

I thought the same thing about the cooling fins. They made no logical sense to me. I wrapped aluminum duct sealing tape around them to deliberately reduce the ambient cooling effect and filled the well with high copper content anti sieze to have the sensor read more accurately.

I've been away all week, so I'd like to catch up on a couple of things. Sorry for taking so long. First, the 80 plus psi readings I mentioned only occurred on startup, cold engine. In the test I did at 0 C, it looked like it would have kept climbing past 80 psi at higher RPM. Once my bike warms up, idle pressure can go as low as 25 psi at 1100 RPM on 90 degree days after a long ride. It is very sensitive to RPM, and went below 15 psi at the original 600 RPM idle it ran at when delivered. That made me a real believer in the importance of at keeping idle at 1150-1200 (my personal target). On hot days, cruising at 3,500 RPM, it can go as low as 55 psi. On average days, say 80 F, it runs 60-62. Based on my measurements, the gauge needs to be rated at 100 psi (7 bar) or more. I prefer the 270 degree dial with a gauge rated well above the expected pressure for long term life and accuracy. A 270 degree dial's needle moves more with pressure changes and catch the eye more readily. It's also easier to read with accuracy. My cold temperature test showed that higher viscosity oils build pressure faster than lower, eliminating the concern that it might take longer than lower viscosity. This, together with pressure readings under various conditions motivated me to use 20W50 oil instead of lower viscosity.

Hi Windchill, Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I've been traveling all week. Here's the details: Sealed Relays are $8 each, plus shipping. If there is a Western Union nearby to you, that's the most convenient way from overseas at my end. A money order is OK as well as a check. If it's a check, it should be made out in U.S. dollars, otherwise the currency exchange fee will be onorous at this end. Please tell me how you want to have me ship them. I can then find out the cost and let you know before you send any money. Also, I'll need your shipping address, of course. I hope you don't think I'm being pushy, but you might want to look at www.motratech.com to see if you are interested in anything else I make. Combining in a shipment saves shipping expense. Cheers, John

I'm not aware of these being available in the U.K., but shipping to the UK is straightforward.

Pete, I don't get the emotionally charged reactions, either. Yes, obsessing is a bad thing when it detracts from enjoyment. FWIW, when I'm seeking accuracy in something, I am extra careful about that when I think others will rely on that info. Measurement accuracy to determine a volume and required accuracy in filling that volume for the purpose intended are two different things. I hope there is enough common sense out there that people realize there is no need to control filling volume to the same degree of accuracy as the measurement of the sump's capacity. I agree that it's a bad thing if that isn't the case and it's a sad situation. I enjoy seeking perfection in some areas others find boring and tedious, and which may appear obsessive to them. I see both sides of it. I find trial and error filling, checking dipstick, fill some more, etc. tedious, so I put in the effort so I don't have to do that again. In earlier threads I participated in to demystify the dipstick marks, my conclusion was to refill with 4 US quarts with filter change without Roper Plate. As a result of this study, I changed my practice to 4-1/2 US quarts with Roper plate installed. No need to obsess about that exact level implied or intended. I can be pretty sloppy about that from now on, without worrying, but only because I did the measurements. If I see the level drop down to about 5/8 inch over the standard dipstick full mark (when fully screwed in), I'll add a 1/2 quart of oil. It's simple. Enough oil at the low end to prevent starvation (with the Roper Plate) on max accels in first gear, and little under the plate at the high end, without having to worry about an ounce here or there. Perhaps this will relieve the anxiety of any out there, which may have been created. I noticed it took quite a while for oil to drain through the plate as I filled the sump. Ratchethack said something about any oil above the plate being entrained in the maelstrom. Should we worry that as oil falls on top of the plate that it will be entrained before it drains down? If that's the case, how does any oil get below? best, John

Hey Pete, I'm really not that sensitive. It's that in the case of terminology, use of the term "condensation" can mislead those who know that term's technical definition, when that is not what is going on in this case. It's simply the wrong term. I really didn't think there was any significant oil condensation going on, but I respect you enough to ask for your clarification, just in case I was missing something. You focus on practical results, and that's fine. I'm interested in that too. I'm also interested in learning and understanding how these great mechanical contrivances work, even in cases where there is no practical reason. It's fun. Of course it doesn't matter whether the oil level is measured to the nanoliter. However, there are people out there who don't even want to bother with adding oil, checking level, adding some more, etc. I've been asked to come up with the amount to fill to just below the plate, as you have recommended. I wanted to know myself. It's going to save me guesswork in the future every time I change oil. I'll just refill with 4-1/2 quarts from now on, and know I don't even have to bother checking the level, and that it will be 2 ounces below your plate. Hopefully the time I took to get it measured accurately will also save many others a lot of guesswork in the future. Why did I bother to include all the test conditions? May seem like an anal type's documentation overkill, but it will save time in otherwise answering a lot of potential posts on what about this, what about that, and lets people know how I got the answers so they can let me know if I have missed something. If people rely on my analysis, it's important to me that it be accurate. By the way, I really enjoy your dissertations. Keep 'em coming. Cheers, John

Of course it's not dogma! It was not developed by a couple of true believers which expect others to accept it on faith. It included the input from numerous contributors, and that open process continued for a long time, until there was nothing more to add. Recently pictures of how to connect a voltmeter to the TPS were included, as an example of a contribution to improve the procedure. The procedure is not intended to discredit or render obsolete, the professional, experienced tuners. It simply results in calibrating the TPS 150 mv baseline and balancing the throttle bodies, which are fundamental to any tuning method. It provides a idle TPS voltage based on sound information. The idle TPS setting is a variable which one may wish to vary from that to whichever of the numerous different recommendations from experts and manuals we found during the research. In fact, although I am not an expert tuner, I varied the idle TPS myself slightly towards the low side to meet my personal goals. The study was undertaken precisely because the various expert tuners of these bikes each has their own rules of thumb, recommendations and experiences, and the various manuals are not consistent. An important goal was to determine how the system works, in order to come up with a reliable procedure. Time was taken to explain how the system physically works. Whenever a question was raised, it was accepted, analyzed, discussed, and resolved. The purpose of the effort was to provide a procedure a layman could follow and achieve a solid, basic synchronizing, TPS calibration, and idle RPM setup. A good side effect was the ability to change idle RPM thereafter simply by adjusting the left idle screw without unbalancing the throttle bodies. I believe it accomplished those goals. In my own case, economy improved, idle stability is fine, never have any popping or sputtering or hesitation, and plenty of power, both before and after the mod's I made. Maybe I was just lucky, but I don't think so. I'm sure my bike could perform even better if it was remapped by an expert. I'll probably do that some time in the future, but for now, I'm quite happy. Obviously, those that wish to continue methods which work for them are under no obligation to follow the procedure. Remapping fuel delivery or timing is outside the scope of the procedure, and squarely in the province of the professionals and skilled DIY's. Go for it!

I'm ready to ship Omron high reliability relays! The first bulk order will be placed tomorrow, Feb. 4th, so let me know by early morning if you want to be included in this batch. I have to order in bulk to keep costs down. I'm happy to say I have Dan Pruneske's blessing. I didn't want to interfere with his livelihood, so I offered to supply him as an exclusive distributor. Dan declined because he does not want to add to his retail business. He even offered to set up a link to www.motratech.com once I post descriptions on that website. He's doing very well in CE consulting, and does not wish to expand his retail business. On top of that, he has plenty of outside activities. Interestingly, Dan's view on specs is pretty sceptical. He gave me no pushback on the relay comparison I did. He feels manufacturers can put out any specs they want. In my case, I believe Japanese and U.S. makers are more credible than the notorious Chinese. These are made by Omron in the U.S. My introductory pricing is $8 for the sealed version and $5 for the unsealed for my friends on this forum that have been waiting patiently. I can only offer the SPDT version, which will work in all positions. This is basically at my cost. If volume builds, I'll keep the prices at that level. If not, I will consider raising prices later on. Introductory shipping and packing cost will be $5.00 within the domestic U.S. regardless of quantity, because I can fit lots of them in the US Postal Service mailer. For details, see my test report below. For any other questions, send me a PM. Please send check or money order payable to Matra Inc., addressed to: John Mickowski 50 Walling Road Warwick, NY 10990 Remember to include your shipping address and how many of each type you want Thanks for your patience. Test report, January, 2008 by: J. Mickowski, B.Eng. MS Computer Science Analysis: The construction of the GEI AR4-1 relay was compared to the Omron G8HN equivalent, and a vibration test was conducted to determine whether either exhibited contact bounce. Both of the relays passed the vibration test. Neither relay showed any contact bounce over the frequency range for equivalent RPM's from 1,000 up to 10,000. The NC contact remained in contact throughout the test for both relays. The construction comparison is as follows: _Brand: _____________ GEI ________ Omron Moving contact mat.___ Silver alloy____Silver alloy NC contact mat._______Copper________Silver alloy NO contact mat._______Copper________Silver alloy Moving contact dia.____0.085/0.083”___0.099/0.098” Terminal material______Plated Brass____Plated Copper The magnetic coils appeared almost identical. The Omron coil appeared to contain more copper. Both had inductive voltage spike suppression resistors. The thermal conduction path for contact heat was better for the Omron, as it used heavier cross section conductors for the contacts through to the terminals, especially on the NO contact, which is used for starting. The additional 1 gram weight of the Omrons is consistent with this. In comparing the manufacturer’s specifications, the Omron is rated higher than the GEI in every category except steady load current. These include inrush current, maximum initial contact voltage, high frequency vibration, and operating temperature. Omron also includes reliability testing specifications, shock, humidity, inductive load reliability, and overload inrush testing at 100 amp and 20 amp steady load to 300,000 cycles. GEI does not provide corresponding specifications. Conclusion: The GEI is rated at 25 amps for the NO contact and 20 amps for the NC, whereas the Omron is rated at 20 and 10 respectively. In my opinion, there is no basis for the higher contact ratings claimed by GEI. If anything, they should be lower than Omron's ratings when based on the same objective criteria. In further support of this, the inrush current capacity of the NO contact specified by GEI is 25 amps, as compared to 60 specified by Omron.

Yes, I think you're right about it being Rosarito Beach. Only went there once. I probably got the name confused with some Mexican cuty! I felt comfortable being driven down there by my Belizian friends to their place. They also knew a way to get around the hours of waiting to cross back into the U.S. via Tijuana, so we had a great time. I hear you loud and clear on the risks. It was unnerving last year, seeing the heavily armed police in an armored vehicle with an obstacle blockade on the main road just inside the border. They looked very alert and serious, not just hanging around as if nothing ever happened. In stark contrast, I felt no such threatening atmosphere when visiting Tijuana in the 1980's or the Yucatan more recently and felt comfortable the entire time. OK, back to technical stuff and out of my adventure world!

Pete Roper's thorough checking of the oil path was a factor in his decisions on where to place the drainage holes in his plate. That extraordinary and messy example of due diligence sure built my confidence in his design. Here is my contribution on this topic: OK, here is a final report on refilling levels with Roper plate installed: Test conditions: Bike had not been started for one week. Sump drained, filter removed, oil removed from filter access cover. Bike left to drain overnight. Installed new filter, and added 4 US quarts oil. Restarted engine long enough to fill filter and build up oil pressure. Bike supported to hold sump level using a good carpenter's spirit level. All dipstick measurements taken screwed in using standard OEM dipstick, tip was 5.475" from its flange. Measured oil level on dipstick: 0.88" beneath the Roper plate, 1.75 from the end of the dipstick. 18 additional oz. of oil were required to fill to 0.88 inches higher along the dipstick. This works out to a relationship of approximately 0.049 inches per ounce. Total oil to fill to Roper plate is therefore 4.32 liters, or 4 quarts-18 oz. US, or 3 quarts-25.6 oz. Imperial. This includes the oil to fill an empty filter. Cautions: :!: This is the level to just kiss the bottom of the plate on my bike. In operation, it will drop somewhat as oil circulates in the engine, which is normal. Refilling by this amount under different draining conditions may result in overfilling, so it is wise to check level with the dipstick after running the engine long enough to fill the filter and build pressure, and adjust if necessary before riding. You can use the 0.049 inches per ounce (about 20 ounces per inch) to estimate how much oil to add if low. With the Roper plate installed and level sump, it takes a few minutes for the fresh oil to drain down through its holes, so wait until the oil is drained into the sump before measuring. If unsure, take at least two measurements. If different, wait a while and check again to get an accurate reading.

OK, here is a final report on refilling levels with Roper plate installed: Test conditions: Bike had not been started for one week. Sump drained, filter removed, oil removed from filter access cover. Bike left to drain overnight. Installed new filter, and added 4 US quarts oil. Restarted engine long enough to fill filter and build up oil pressure. Bike supported to hold sump level using a good carpenter's spirit level. All dipstick measurements taken screwed in using standard OEM dipstick, tip was 5.475" from its flange. Measured oil level on dipstick: 0.88" beneath the Roper plate, 1.75 from the end of the dipstick. 18 additional oz. of oil were required to fill to 0.88 inches higher along the dipstick. This works out to a relationship of approximately 0.049 inches per ounce. Total oil to fill to Roper plate is therefore 4.32 liters, or 4 quarts-18 oz. US, or 3 quarts-25.6 oz. Imperial. Cautions: This is the level to just kiss the bottom of the plate on my bike. In operation, it will drop somewhat as oil circulates in the engine, which is normal. Refilling by this amount under different draining conditions may result in overfilling, so it is wise to check level with the dipstick after running the engine long enough to fill the filter and build pressure, and adjust if necessary before riding. You can use the 0.049 inches per ounce (about 20 ounces per inch) to estimate how much oil to add if low. With the Roper plate installed and level sump, it takes a few minutes for the fresh oil to drain down through its holes, so wait until the oil is drained into the sump before measuring. If unsure, take at least two measurements. If different, wait a while and check again to get an accurate reading.

Good News, notright! I just received a message from Edge. He is back from Afghanistan, safe and sound. He made some molded plastic guards to protect the rear suspension from the road spray, that received good reports in the past. I put myself on his list some time ago, but he's been busy helping defend our liberties and keeping our citizens out of harm's way for a long time, with only short breaks back home. I'm back on the list for a set this month. He is working on getting some of these made up. I have told him you might be interested. Let him know soon if you want a set so he buys enough plastic. Cheers, John

That sounds like my method of making my custom fitted sheepskin seat cover. To help keep my natural inclination towards impatience at bay, I add rock and roll or country music as background to my grunts and groans. I like your personality adjustment selections as well. Say, I'm going to be out in Phoenix during the week of April 21st. Did you see the fantastic travel report on the trip to Baja California? That looks very enticing to me. Any chance you might get time off to ride down that way? I'm not sure I would do that alone. I know zero Spanish. I just sent out a message to a couple of Belizian friends of mine that own a cottage in Rosalita. Might be a good place to visit, if they are willing to time off to meet up with us. These guys are really good people and good company. Do you know of any outfit that will rent me a bike and allow travel into Mexico? If you have any interest in this, we can discuss via PM, or in the Travel section.

That makes sense to me. As you describe it, the oil is in suspension, rather than in the gas phase. I was thinking in terms of the engineering definition of "condensation", as the gas stage of a fluid going to the liquid phase as temperature drops below the saturation point. That's called the familiar "dew" point for water vapor.

Thanks for giving us the link. I didn't have that handy in my reply. All I had in my file was the date, topic, and post number. Do you have a link to the post that shows a sketch and dimensions? Cheers, John

Hi Pete, Do you really think the oil reaches a high enough vapor pressure at the engine's operating temperature to evaporate and then condense, or is it unburnt fuel and water vapor mixed with oil particles suspended in the gases? As my before and after test shows, your plate does the job with a 4 quart refill. Short of relocating the oil pickup, what other alternative is there? Darned if I can think of anything practical. Besides, doesn't the plate reduce windage as well, or is that insignificant without it? Cheers, John

1) Here's some info. on mudguards. I think inner tubes may be too flexible: December 2, 2005 post #60 "Fabricated Rear-shock Mud Guard' "Compared to the Edge Guard, this thing is more of a "Bodge Guard". It was cut out of an 18-wheeler mud flap from NAPA Auto Parts and zip-tied in place. But she works like a Champ. It's tougher than nails, and it keeps everything nice and clean - shock, trans, and crossover, too" High tech alternative from "edge" is shown as Part A on top, B on bottom Post 54 November 18, 2005 He is from Watertown, NY. Unfortunately, Edge has been out of communication for a while. I have been unable to buy one from him, so let me know how you make out. I want to do this as well. 4) Foot Forward Controls. I'm 5'9 also with 31" inseam. The 5.5" forward extension and 1.6" down relocation made the difference between discomfort after 30 minutes and riding all day with no problem for me. I can now stand up over a big bump easily and my crotch no longer gets jammed up against the tank after a while. Transferring weight farther forward on the feet provides more leverage and takes pressure off the hands as well. The original footpegs are used, so they will fold if necessary on a hard corner, rather than bend or break. 5) How about integrated brakes? Not too expensive as a DIY project. 6) No doubt about the advantages of a fairing for foul weather. I have a Yamaha Venture for that, but if I had only one bike, I would install a fairing too. Harper's sells a $495 fairing for California's, but their recent ad says they are working on other models. It looks like you would still get wet shins, but protection for the hands and upper body looks OK. When my low fuel sensor quit and my speedo cable was broken, I ran out of gas at the wrong time and the wrong place. At the time, warrantee service in my area was suspended, so I bought a tank bag and kept a gallon of gasonline in an antifreeze jug in it. I also installed a bike speedometer until I got the sensor and speedo cable taken care of months later. Beware of the flimsier milk jugs and pop-tops. The TPS and synch procedure in the How To section boosted my range and MPG's by a little over ten percent. It went from 38 to 42 MPG. Every little bit helps. I am on the third speedo cable. The latest one is the new improved version, but I'm not confident because from day one, I saw the needle oscillations which normally indicate some friction somewhere in the cable. I like having the bike speedo anyway. It's accurate, whereas the original speedo reads high by 8%. Tells me average speed, distance, trip odo, highest speed and more, for under $30. I think I posted a thread on this somewhere. The Sigma brand has a higher max speed rating than you will ever need. Some other brands are limited to 80 something. Cheers, John

For those who wish to go directly to the carefully researched and proven step-by-step tuning method, you can go to the How To section: http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12204

Very funny! Perhaps you haven't seen the incredibly long and anal investigation I made into the cause of filters coming loose. The result of this was the oil filter tightening thread in the FAQ section. Hose clamp? ... Hose clamp?! I don't need no steeenking hose clamp! I use a Purolator filter and tighten using the turns method.

4) I'm looking to add something to shield the rear suspension from road grunge as well. I haven't been able to find a source, so if you do, I'd appreciate knowing about it. 5) Mongo horns-I like Fiamm's also. Used them on my Honda 450 straight off the horn button but that was then. If you choose to do that, you may want to replace the light relay with a heavier duty unit. I have lined up a source of these from Omron, made in U.S.A. Send me a personal message for details. It feeds power through the horn button to the horns. If you add a relay for the compressor, the relay you use should be one made for starter solenoids and should have an internal supression resistor across its coil to protect the Guzzi's circuits. If you want a longer relay life, there should be a diode across the Fiamm compressor unless it already has one internally. The diode should be rated for the same current as the compressor draws or more, for a good reliability margin. Its voltage rating should be at least 20 volts, but almost any ordinary diode will have a much higher voltage rating. 7) I bought a sheepskin with a deep and dense pile big enough for both of my bikes. I used a piece of cloth to cut out a pattern, then traced this onto the skin, and cut it out with ordinary scissors. It is very comfortable and good in any weather as well. It cost $70, a little more than the run of the mill, but the thickness and density of the pile was worth it. One skin was big enough for both bikes. 8) If you are looking for comfort, you haven't mentioned peg relocation. I developed a set for my Cafe Sport to be able to ride long distance in comfort. You can see about this and an oil pressure gauge kit on www.motratech.com Details on the relays aren't on the website yet, but they are available. I haven't delved into the other areas, so no comment on those. Ride On!

My forward foot position kit uses the original folding footpegs. If it will help you find what you are looking for, check www.motratech.com or send me a personal message. Cheers, John

Bingo!

FWIW, elliptical hydraulic cylinders have been in production at least for 5 years that I know of. Why on earth, you might ask, would anyone want to deal with the challenges in involved? In the particular application, there was limited space in one direction, but a need to increase the cross-sectional area of the cylinder. Cheers, John

You're an honorable man, Dave.