Meinolf

Hi, allow me to step in and add some comments. If I mentioned a valve play of 0,3mm for the V11 camshaft, then I made a mistake. The V11 camshaft is well designed and doesn't need any additional play to overcome (too) long slopes. The 0,3mm are recommended for all OEM pre-CARC camshafts, as they have a tremendously long slope. As a result the valves are slightly open for more than 100° CW before the actual opening cycle, with the accompanying loss of pressure in the combustion chamber and increased valve temperature for lack of cooling time with the valves connecting to the seat. My recommended settings for the bypass screws and CO trim are only intended to simplify the usage of the BIN with different engines than mine. CO trim can be set accurately, but many seem to have problems adjusting it with GuzziDiag while the engine is running. I always choose the easier path of directly modifying the CO trim values in the EEPROM. The bypass screws are more problematical, as my 1/2 turn opening might be your 1/2+1/16 turn opening. They are not graduated. The impact of CO trim (+/- fuel) and bypass (+/- air) is most pronounced a low TPS settings. So the idea is to avoid this potential pitfall, especially the potential mis-syncing of both cylinders. My BIN is based on AFR measurements and my targeted AFR targets for the respective breakpoints. (Btw, I've revisited the 15M and to a lesser degree the 15RC code and found that the code contains a calculation which causes CO trim to taper off and disappear at 3000rpm) Some may remember that the measuring and logging on the V11 was done with highly dissatisfying equipment form Innovate. I eventually switched to Zeitronix, ZT2 and 3, which are much better, for my efforts with the Jackal and Norge. As this is mostly finished I moved the equipment to the V11 and started re-measuring it. The result is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nIzV4LkFXJUyDMalLagnWb6c9I_0R0Bt/view?usp=sharing Changes versus the 93_6 BIN are fuel values (improved AFR synchronicity between the cylinders) and changed ignition values (the engine runs less harshly in the 4-5k rpm/~15-30° TPS area. I will continue to work on the ignition, but since I have no means of measuring the effect except for my seat-of-pants, this is the area where the biggest remaining improvements are hidden. I've also noticed that, after re-working the butterfly valves and the shafts, there's an much larger than expected discrepancy between fuel values over the first two TPS breakpoint columns. As I intend to open the engine anyway to inspect the valves, I'll revisit the throttle bodies as well. This is mostly a cosmetic issue, the bike runs splendidly. But first the rebuild of the Mille GT (change to a BMW K100 fork with 41,3mm diameter instead of 35mm, new camshaft, improving the valve timing, ....) and the SPIII rebuild after I was crashed by a young Italian lady in the hills above Genua have to be finished. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, maybe this will clarify some of the questions. AFR/Lambda and ignition timing are closely intertwined. The flame through speed of the mixture varies with Lambda, up to -20%. The fuel values in my V11 BIN are based on a Lambda target map, which is based, amongst other considerations, on MAP at the respective breakpoints. I use a meager mixture at low MAP breakpoints and richer mixture in areas with less throttling loss. Hence the fuel values vary a lot from one breakpoint to neighboring ones if this is where the target lamba changes from 1.0 to 0.94 (as example). This variation is most pronounced when moving from the fuel shut-off area (better engine breaking) to the fuel-injected areas. The ignition values reflect the mixture. Meager mixture = earlier ignition, richer mixture = later ignition. The earliest ignition values are used in the fuel shut-off area to minimize popping in the exhaust, which is caused by a lean mixture not igniting in time. As to the thread topic - the hiccup. If no other faults, most of them were already mentioned in this thread, are present, hicc-ups in my experience are always the result of a lean mixture. The V11 engine runs reasonably well with Lambda 1, but deteriorates quickly if the mixture gets leaner. Cheers Meinolf

Hi Phil, Countersunk is factory standard, so a PO probably recognized the problem. Yeah, first grandchild and me becoming a semi-grandfather. So to say. And the little loves me, I bear scratches in my face as evidence

Hi, While re-reading Phil's post one more thing came to mind. The throttle bodies, when fastened to the braces, are not well seated in the rubber thingies (can't remember the correct term). In other words, the screws and threads in the braces don't align well. They can be forced in, but then the throttle bodies sit slightly twisted in the rubber boots (ha, memory came to the rescue). Enlarged screw holes and regular cylindrical inbus screws seating on top of the braces allow for installation without tension and offer the benefit of screw heads which won't self-destroy during the next time the TBs are removed. Cheers Meinolf PS I'll post a picture when back in Germany. Just now I'm living the good life in a cafe in the old town of Limassol on Cyprus, visiting my mate's daughter and the first grandchild

Hi Phil, thanks, a very lucid and detailed explanation. I re-worked the throttle bodies of my Jackal and V11 some years ago, some additional comments based thereupon. This is important, the butterfly valves have edges ground at an angle to fit to the throttle bodies when closed. The original screws block a substantial amount of the cross section, the two pictures (before/after) show the difference. Using flat-headed screws frees up some of the cross section, especially if the screw is selected (or made to fit) to the diameter of the shaft. For those willing to go further, one half of the shaft can be removed. Freeing up even more of the cross section for increased airflow. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I'm not sure if I know what you mean by “world spec”. The service manual recommends 0.15/0.1mm for exhaust/intake, I use 0.2/0.15mm respectively. But it's not critical in regards to my BIN. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I still get emails asking for the V11 BIN I made available several years ago. I can't find my post with the download links, which don't work anymore anyway, so here's the current download link. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e7MMuO6vrUZGFfmkCtL3zsW1qeS6uDgY/view?usp=sharing The base setup, and that's quite important to follow to get the best results, is: - TPS set to 157mV with all mechanical connectors removed and throttle completely closed - Both bypass screws completely closed - CO trim set to 0 - Idle sync with both (if so required) throttle stop screws - Running sync as usual And while we at it, here's the link to the Jackal (works with any California with 15M) BIN. Same base setup as V11, but I recommend a larger valve play of 0,3mm for exhaust and intake. The Jackal BIN is quite recent. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wb2LXrRrgDI1WO0krnb_GeiAvewbwA1K/view?usp=sharing Cheers Meinolf

Hi, it's 156.25mV or, if total accuracy is targeted, 8*(5/256) with as many decimals as can be successfully measured. Much success Meinolf

Hi, my valve play recommendation of 0.25mm valve play is based on the measurements done on the V11 camshaft. Less play leads to a much longer period at which the valves are already slightly opened. The effects are loss of mean pressure in the combustion chamber and less time for the valve to conduct heat to the seats. My V11 has run more than 85.000km with this setting. 0.157V as base setting for the TPS is recommended because the ADC in the ECU is a 8bit version. 5V are divided by 256 ($FF), which leads to a step of 0.01953...V. Multiplying this by 8 leads to the 156(.25mV). The 150mV found in the Guzzi literature is wrong, somebody at Guzzi or Marelli made a rounding error. I'm not saying that achieving 156mV is critical, to many factors including the quality of the DMM used come into play. But why not choose the correct value, if it is known, as target. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, the point is the following. The ECU uses two tables with fuel injection values, left (main) and right (delta) cylinder. The tables are indexed by throttle opening (TPS value) and rpm. The TPS is attached to the right (delta) throttle. The challenge is to synchronize both throttle valves so that they are using the same TPS breakpoints. This is essential a small throttle openings, as the TPS breakpoints differ initially only very slightly. At idle the springs are pressing the butterfly valves against the stop screws. Due to the numerous joints there's some play, which is overcome when opening the throttle. So, two different states. Pressing at idle, drawing when opening the throttle. My description is a pre-requisite when using my BIN, as the fuel values were arrived at logging lambda data based on it. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, connect Guzzidiag, select graphical display and watch if the curve is smooth when opening/closing the throttle. Beware that there's a change in the gradient at 30°, it get's flatter when opening, due to the characteristics of this TPS's curve formula. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, setting the TPS to it's proper start position (which is 157mV with all connections removed) can only be done with a physical adjustment and a voltmeter - not Guzzidiag or any other software. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I've spoken to Paul's daughter some minutes ago. She asked me to convey thanks to all who expressed their concern. Paul's condition is still unchanged, but not worse. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, Yes, that's what it boils down to. Well, you don't need special vernier sprockets. Re-boring the index hole in the sprocket with the desired offset is the way I do it. I don't understand the question. What do you mean by effective valve clearence? Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I don't want to niggle, but make sure no wrong conclusions are drawn from above. Using different valve play values should be done only if all relevant factors are known. Simply increasing valve play to garner the benefits of better VE without having a measured the camshaft and valve lift would be a dangerous game. Skipping the ramp up portion entirely is comparable to hammering the valve and all involved components instead of having them smoothly brought up to speed. And, as the total valve lift will happen during a shorter time, the acceleration would increase. Which might lead to valves simply being torn apart or overshooting because the springs can't cope with the increased inertial moment. Just sayin` Meinolf

Hi, sure, a ridiculuous amount would be nonsense and result, amongst other things, in little gas flow. Keep in mind my remarks "...Disregarding all other factors..." and "...Increasing it, within reason, ..". The ultimate goal is get as much air mass into the combustion chamber at the time it's needed and can be utilized. This is expressed as volumetric efficiency. If you have a pump (cylinder/piston) with 1l volume, the largest air volume which can be brought into the pump is 1l, which is a volumetric efficiency of 1. Now consider a combustion engine to be a flow machine. Before opening the valves the air is waiting to get into the combustion chamber. When the valves are opened it can stream into the combustion chamber. The faster the valve opens the faster it can get into the chamber. The speed of valve opening is determined by gradient of the camshaft. By increasing the valve play the controlled (and slow) ramp-up is partly skipped and the opening time (fully closed to fully opened) is shortened, the valve is actuated faster because it's already at a high gradient part of the camshaft. Hence, the air flow will increase. Decreasing the valve play would result in an earlier opening of the valves, but only a slight gap one. The air waiting to get into the combustion chamber is trickling instead of charging, overall volumetric efficiency will decrease. Hence, less air mass arrives in the combustion chamber at the end of the cycle. Having said this, this is a rather theoretical discussion because other factors, such as max. acceleration/deceleration, spring rate, weight of the moving parts of the valve train, surface pressure and so on need to be taken into account. Cheers Meinolf

Hi Kelly, valve play and timing have no connection. I've never measured AFR with a mistral crossover and oval exhaust. My setup is standard crossover and TI exhaust (which flows significantly better than the stock exhaust, but is quite loud) Again using a picture from Motoguzznix's file for visualization, the timing is dependent on the camshaft. It's best practice to adjust the point at which the intake and exhaust valve have the same lift to 2-3° before TDC and not at TDC. Or even behind, which is the reality in Guzzi engines after some time because the chain has worn a bit. The main issue with the V11 valve train are the guides, you will typical see a much larger play than factory specs after some time. So, changing the valve play versus the 0.25mm I've used will impact AFR and not timing or wear and tear. Disregarding all other factors, decreasing the play would reduce the airflow, which would lead to a richer mixture than I intended. Increasing it, within reason, would slightly improve airflow and lead to a leaner mixture. But as I wrote previously, the V11 camshaft is a good one, stay with 0.25mm. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I'm being quoted as recommending a valve play of 0,3mm or larger for both exhaust and intake valves on the V11. I can't recall recommending this for the V11. The V11 camshaft is very good and the ramps are not overly long. Using 0.25/0.25mm is my recommendation. The old Tonti camshafts, on the other hand, are best served with a valve play of 0.35/0.35mm. The have very long ramps, using the factory recommendation of 0.25/20mm leads to a opening angle of >400°, the valves are slightly (1-2/100mm) open over a wide range during ramp up. The effects are decreased valve cooling time, loss of mean pressure and cylinder fillling. The two pictures (Copyright Motoguzznix) show the effect for the 2 camshaft types. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I assume that by "original speedometer" you mean a dashboard. Which is talking to the ECU via CANBus, the immobilizer function being one of the bits transmitted over the bus. The 15M/RC don't use CANBus, the speedometer is just triggered by a pulse. Replacing it does not inhibit the starting. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, on 2nd thought your comment deserves a more detailed reply. The name cold start is not well chosen. Start-up fits better. The reason why the start-up function is needed and why it's temperature and to a lesser degree revs since start dependent is the following. After pressing the starter button the injectors begin injecting fuel, the nozzle and the fuel jet are pointing towards the opposite side of the intake pipe . At that time there's almost no air flow and a very low air speed moving through the intake, hence the first fuel shots are creating a fuel puddle on the opposite surface of the intake tract. A surplus of fuel, which is caused by the trim values, during that period ensures that enough fuel gets into the combustion chamber to achieve a ignitable mixture. This effect is engine and air speed dependent, so a temporary enrichment for some revs is needed at any engine temperature. Once the engine is turning over at a higher speed, the resulting higher air speed moves more of the injected fuel into the combustion chamber. And the increasing temperature of the engine increases the evaporation of the fuel, again resulting in more fuel getting into the combustion chamber. My current conclusion, based on the measurements, is that the critical values in the start-up table are those used during the first 10-50 revs. Once the engine is running on its own the start-up table values can be replaced by fuel engine temp trim table. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, It might not be that cold, but the breakpoints go up to 125C. So yes, 65C. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, as chance goes I've been revisiting the engine temperature related trim functions on the Jackal, since the current temperature are below 0°C and the respective engine temp breakpoints could be reached. The Jackal is also using the 15M, so it's seems relevant to this thread. The start enrichment map and the fuel trim engine temp map were already changed several years ago on the V11 and Jackal, but at that time the logging equipment was from Innovate. Unreliable product and poor support led me to changing to the Zeitronix ZT2s. Those we hooked up to the Norge, but I got several more ZTs and mounted them on the Jackal. The basic measuring procedure was already planned last year. The ZTs have two 0-5V inputs. But, both are being used during the normal logging. The first one is attached to the TPS, as the standard input only provides for measuring TPS as a integer %-value. Which is not good enough in the lower third of the TPS range, %-values overlap the degree values. The 2nd input gets the lambda signal measured by the 2nd ZT2. So the 2nd ZT2 was temporarily disconnected and the engine temperature sensor connected instead. As mentioned above the engine temp related fuel trims are taken care of by two mechanism. The first is the start enrichment map, indexed by engine temperature and number of revolutions since ignition on. I've changed the standard 2000 revs in my BINs to 1000 a long time ago to minimize the interference during the normal logging. The index is to be understood working in reverse, to the first step is 1000-984 = 16 revolutions. And so forth, until the total number of revolutions, specified in a scalar, has passed. The fuel trim engine temp map is a 1D, only indexed by engine temperature. Both functions overlap, so a trim by this table is factored together with the current start enrichment factor. One of the pictures shows both tables. The 2nd picture shows the log of a cold start at ~65°C, which is the voltage coming from the sensor at that temperature. First line is lambda, then rpm, then TPS and then the voltage from the engine temp sensor. As preparation a look-up table voltage vs temperature needed to be created. This was done by running the ZDL software and GuzziDiag at the same time and noting down the corresponding values. The measuring procedure is starting the engine with and logging the data. The inital data, while the rev countdown is still running, is used to check and correct the trim values in the start enrichment map, then shutting the engine down and repeating the procedure at every engine temp breakpoint. Which takes 20-30 tries, as the engine temperature keeps rising by 5-8°C after the engine was shut off. Longer runs are used to get lamba values across the temperature range without the start enrichment influence. These are used to check and correct the fuel trim engine temperature table. And this opportunity is also used to re-evaluate the main fuel value at the lowest rpm/lowest TPS breakpoint, which I don't normally reach while driving. My idle speed is higher than that, but it is nicely reached during cold starts. It will take another day or so, but the first results are very good. The original values in the start enrichment map are much to rich, a lambda of <0.7, down to 0.6, is standard. Which is puzzling, as this is below the point at which the mixture will ignite at all. Good engineering by Guzzi, maybe. The corrections already made brought lambda in the range of 0.84-0.92, which I will try to equalize as good as possible. The fuel trim values are more or less finished also, at least in the range from 0° to 90°C. The higher values will be done while road logging, Beard kindly added a temperature filter function to the database program he wrote to analyze the massive data volume created by the ZT2, close to a million data points in one hour. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, you called me, the genie comes out of the bottle. Gentlemen, let me set things straight. There's in fact a warm-up function which in all Marelli 15xx BINs I've come across runs for 2000 engine revolutions after start, regardless of bike manufacturer. Neither the warm-up table nor the other trim tables mentioned below are hard-wired. They can be easily changed. I suggest one should know what one is doing before making any changes, though. The factor applied to the value which eventually will determine the injector opening time is in a 2D table. The x-axis is revolutions since start (every start), the 2nd axis is engine temperature. Search for warm-up table and you will find pictures of the table. Or use Tunerpro and load a BIN. The typical warm-up table has a factor of ~ 600% at -18°C engine temperature for 2 revolutions after start, the value tapers off with increasing revolutions. At higher engine temperatures the values are lower and taper off more quickly. Either way the warm-up function ends once the revs since start, every start, have passed. But.... There are two further temperature trim tables, also factors, which are part of the fuel calculation. One is a 1D engine temperature-indexed table, the other one a 1D air temperature-indexed table. Plus another other trim tables for air pressure and acceleration/deceleration. So the fuel calculation looks roughly like this. Fuel map value x factor engine temp x factor air temp x factor warm-up x factor air pressure x .... = final fuel value -> converted into a injector pulse width measured against end of pulse in relation to crankshaft as determined in the fuel phase table. See, no magic involved, very basic stuff. I've found that, as with many other trim tables, the warm-up and engine temp trim tables in Guzzi (and all others) BINs are not as dictated by the laws of physics and the circumstances of the engines (V11 and California) I've logged. Accordingly the warm-up and trim tables in my BINs are corrected. I've stopped my work on the V11 BIN 2 years ago and moved on to the Jackal and currently the 5AM ECU used in the Guzzi CARC models, the Aprilia Mana and many Ducatis and Morinis. So the more recent posts and results of the reverse engineering can be found here: https://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=93758.0 or https://www.ducati.ms/threads/5am-bin-analysis.718031/ or https://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/showthread.php?336210-ECU-tuning-Looking-for-information Any further questions? No, then back into the bottle Cheers Meinolf

Yes, that's correct. The active word being "most" Cheers Meinolf

Hi, Higher numbers are newer versions. Cheers Meinolf