Meinolf

Hi Ken, I find that the original TI BIN is not overly rich. In fact it is, assuming that a performance map should target Lambda 0.86 or less in the main areas, quite meager. The picture linked shows the comparison between my (I have the TI exhaust) and TI BIN. The cells with negative values are lower than the ones in my map, which has a Lambda of 0.88 across the entire map. And those areas where the TI is richer than mine are mostly the areas you can't reach. Like 1300rpm/61° TPS or 7800rpm/3.3°TPS. I found that comparing BINs, and more specifically the two fuel tables, at face value is useless. Nothing to be learned, a lot to be misunderstood or misinterpreted. To many factors contribute to the actual Lambda/AFR and the base and offset map are just the starting point. Along the way the values are influenced by the CO trim, the setting of the bypass screws, the acceleration map, the temperature trim tables and the ignition and ignition trim tables. And last but not least a well contacting and working engine temperature sensor. Don't ask me how I know https://db.tt/aQjNNxeq Cheers Meinolf

Hi Docc, that's the gist of it. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, some comments in addition to Camn's explanation. "titanium ecu software .... it is nothing else than the standard ecu and mapping which makes the motor run more rich" Not quite. There are more differences in the BIN than just fuel and ignition maps. But I couldn't find any differences which I believe are relevant to performance. But this might well be due to yet to be documented functions in the BIN. I will eventually copy the numerous changes of my current BIN on top of a Titanium BIN and see if there's a noticeable difference. "The ecu type “15M” and tps type “PF3C” are always as a pair there, and come from the GuzziDiag PC software." The string "15M" is in the BIN (beginning $AF00), PF03C is not. However, as GuzziReader doesn't copy the entire BIN to a file, PF03C might be contained in the code which we don't see. GuzziDiags adds, as Camn explains, the latter to clearly identify the TPS type which is assumed to be used on the motorcycle. This shouldn't be of interest under normal circumstances. The exception is if a TPS with a different resistance curve is used instead of the PF03C. The BIN contains two 16x16 tables (and a 3rd one for the Quota 1100) serving as lookup tables in which voltage values (from the TPS) and the associated TPS angles are stored. This is where you would have to change values if a different TPS is used. "C"X" => I have also been wondering this marking" Currently my best guess is that the characters after 15M either indicate hardware versions or are specific to the different customers. I have seen the 15M used by Ducati labeled with 15M.A2 and the MG ones with 15M.C5 or C7. And only recently did I hear that the 15M is also used in asian scooters, the designation used there being P. Go and figure. Cheers Meinolf

Hi Jim, what you are seeing is data which is part of the BIN loaded to the ECU and can be changed with TunerPro or the like. 3D02VS9f is the code for the first V11-BIN from MG. I haven't seen the DLXV11-S in connection with a 15M or 15RC, but don't claim to know all codes. Don't you have any labels on the ECUs which give more information? If not, check the # of lines of the connector. The 15RC has one additional line for the lambda sensor. As the models which came with the 15RC are using the same temperature sensors, this alone would not explain the issue you experienced and solved. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, based on ~50h data-logging at ambient temperatures ranging from 5-35°C and heights from 100-1200m and 2-3 weeks spent analyzing the accumulated data I now have a map which I find quite satisfactory. Power, subjectively, is better than the original map, even more important are smoothness and drivability. Would anyone like to try the map and share his experience? I only know my V11, so my impression is quite subjectiv. Starting point is a V11, 15M, 2001, 68.000km, Titan mufflers, standard collector, KN airfilter, no snorkels, no further engine or other modification. The ECU trim on my V11 is set to 0, so it should be adjusted accordingly. The target was this map with synchronous values at all operating conditions on both cylinders at all map cells reachable during normal street driving conditions. I experienced 5.0-6.5l/100km, depending on the driving mode - touring vs spirited curve chasing. The only remaining issue is some lean sputtering between 2.900-2.600rpm when decelerating with completely closed throttle. https://www.dropbox.com/s/dtvi6kb1hvu7pbx/Ziel-Lambda.JPG?dl=0 These are the cells I could reach during normal street operation (ignore the values, they are mean values from +14h logging) https://www.dropbox.com/s/3jssp3ze59ruemi/Angefahrene%20Punkte.JPG?dl=0 The changes to the map are: - base maps of both cylinders changed. Mean deviation at those points I could reach is less than +/- 0.01 Lambda - Reduced cold start duration to 2000 revolutions and made a proportional change to the cold start map values - Corrected trim tables for ambient temperature (I could not measure any AFR changes due to changed temperatures in the range of 5-35°C) - Corrected trim tables for ambient pressure (I could not measure any AFR changes due to changed pressure changes in the range of 100-1200m) - Changed ignition table - Changed acceleration map Cheers Meinolf PS Following a completely different topic I found today that the engine temperature sensor on my V11 did not fully contact the engine. The consequence was that the reported engine temperature was ~25°C below the actual value. And this resulted in messing up several areas of the map. So, until I have corrected these areas the map won't work well on any engine where the sensor is reporting the correct temperature. However, considering how the sensor is connected to the engine and that the design does not ensure a reliable heat transmission, the chances are that many V11 will have the same effect and consequently the map should work well. If GuzziDiag shows, after a normal run or about 10min idling, less than 85-90°C, the chances are that the sensor is not properly contacting the engine. An easy fix is to apply a drop of heat paste to the tip of the sensor.

Hi Czakky, Sorry, I have no simple recipe. The prequisites are dual lambda sensors, a data logger, a target and the willingness to spend a lot of time in measuring and data analysis. On my bike I have invested several work weeks during the last year. And I'm not satisfied and finished yet. I'm at a stage where I gather several hours of data and then spend hours on analyzing just a couple of seconds. It has become a goal in itself. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, two comments (based on a 15M, not all may apply for a different ECU). First, the air temperature sensor is providing intake air temperature to the ECU to allow for variations in the air mass, which the air temperature trim table is supposed to compensate. The target being twofold, an AFR which is not changed due to air mass variations and changes to the ignition timing in case the air temperature exceeds a given temperature (AirTempSparkTrim table). Second. I have logged the air temperature on a V11 (no snorkels) with the sensor in the airbox and almost no influence from the engine temperatur or engine load is discernible. Ambient air temperature seems to be the only significant impact. In below picture the blue line is engine temperatur, the red one rpm and the orange one air temperature. The air temperature stays at ambient temperature plus a couple °C, even when idling after high loads. Cheers Meinolf https://db.tt/8T61QNDL

Hi Hubert, it depends. Not having done and tested an ignition map for a dual-plugged V11 with a 15M (my following thoughts are partly based on the current understanding of the 15M, other ECUs. Especially those with closed-loop, are a different topic) I would tend to follow past experiences. Dual plugging of twins brought the biggest benefits to those designs (for example the old LeMans1-5 or BMW R90S) which used a raised piston dome to achieve high combustion, which resulted in an ineffective design; larger surfaces leading to higher heat dissipation and a convoluted combustion chamber. At that time a rather rich mixture was (legally) possible, so the negative influences could be countermanded by just richening the mixture. A rich fuel-air mixture ignites better and burns faster. The combustion chamber of the V11, using a semi-spherical design, and the quite flat piston are actually quite good for a 2 valve head. However, at the time of design of the V11 emission values became a design-critical factor. Which lead to leaner mixtures, which lead to much higher pre-ignition values than the old designs with raised piston domes and rich mixture needed. Given that adjusting the mixture by changing the respective maps, based on AFR readings readily available using relatively cheap equipment from Zeitronix or Innovate, is possible now I would start of with a ignition curve which is similar to the old LeMans. Which at WOT is actually close to the 8° which sp838 (I do wonder why so many hesitate to use a name instead of a nick) suggested earlier on. But at intermediate rpm/settings, where one would strive for a mixture less rich than the one desirable at WOT, the pre-ignition could be closer to the original map. It gets a bit more complicated at low rpms. At and close to idle the ECU uses a formula to change pre-ignition, based on the ignition maps. The differences I have noted are close to or bigger than the pre-ignition of the old Le Mans, so I would start of with the original ECU values. Does that make sense? I haven't yet come across an ignition map from one of the tuners such as DAES or Dynotec modified for dual plugs. I'd be happy to get one. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, a uniform decrease of 8° at all loadpoints probably won't work. Instead of going for new pistons you can achieve a compression of ~11 by taking 1mm of the the cylinder heads and shortening the the cylinders by 0,5mm. This would also give you a decent squish area, which the standard setup doesn't have. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, you can change the ignition map of the ECU with programs such as Tunerpro. Download the map using 15M-reader, change the values and upload the new map with 15M-writer. While I don't have any advice how much and in which areas (rpm/TPS) the ignition should be changed, it definitely should be retarded. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I haven't dissassembled my triple clamp yet, but I found on other bikes that laying a weldseam into the race also made them come out easily. The weldseam typically doesn't have to go all the way round. If you should use this approach, then take the precaution to disconnect the ECU and battery beforehand. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, I've literally sent 1000's of modified bins to the ECU during my explorations into the 15M, and have never experienced "stickiness" of a bin. Load a new bin, or resort to the previous one, and that's what the ECU will be using. So un-tainting is easy, load the previous bin. As to the cold start map. I have not yet done any systematic investigation of the cold start map/function, but for sure there's more than meets the eye. At first glance it seems that just 2 parameters can be twiddled, the values (injection values) and the map points. The map points need to be synced with the scalar, so if you change the scalar values from 4.000 (which seems to be the OEM values), then the map points in the cold start map should be changed accordingly. Additionally I (believe) have found that there's an interdependency between the injection values and pre-ignition values. When playing around with the injection values (going up to 255), I saw pre-ignition values of up 61°. Which is way higher than any value in the ignition map. Appearently the ECU is using not only the values is the map, but also uses functions (equations) to correlate the different maps. I'm pretty sure that idle (regardless of cold start or after the engine has been running for any time) is controlled also by changing the pre-ignition. As the actual ignition values I have seen are completely different than the values in the maps, this seems to be a reasonable assumption. Particulary as we found that the interpolation between two map points, for example in the base maps, is based on a linear interpolation equation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_interpolation) But, we don't know even know is this interpolation is in one dimension (rpm map points) or in two dimensions (TPS map points). I believe the latter is the case. Identifying maps (16x16 or 1x16) in the bin is (relatively) easy compared to finding the equations. I've spent considerable time gazing at the disassembled code, but, having no skills as a programmer at all, could as well have been looking into the sky :-) I'm sure that Beard (the guy who wrote GuzziDiag and the other tools) and Paul would highly appreciate the help of anybody knowledgable in software. On the 15M (which also is no longer a focus topic as everybody is researching the newer ECUs), I'd say only 50% of the existing maps and correction tables are identified and understood. Much less on the interdependencies. So, what might be happening is that a changed value in the cold start map is outside the accepted range for the equation calculating the ignition. The result is that, even though the injection value might be good enough to provide an inflammable mixture, the corresponding calculated pre-ignition value is too far off to actually ignite the mixture. Anyway, if there's a problem after changing the bin, go back to the last known-to-be good map. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, no. Changes of the CO trim value affect the entire rpm range. However, the effect is not linear. From ~2.700 - ~ 5.500rpm the increase in injection duration is more pronounced than below or above those points. This increase is also influenced by the value at B7B3, which can be considered to be a factor applied to the CO trim value. This diagram http://postimg.org/image/4i0nf00c9/ shows the results of CO trim values +50 and -50 while varying the value at B7B3 from C0 to 80 to 40 (hex values). Cheers Meinolf

Hi, the area of the inlet, dependent on the TPS angle, is non-linear because its a sine-function. With 30° TPS opening the inlet is already 50% open. Cheers Meinolf PS The table below does not include the area blocked by the shaft. But as this is "hidden" for throttle openings below ~70° and then only further accelerates the non-linear effect it shouldn't matter for the purpose of visualizing the reason. https://db.tt/xSczhd0T

Hi, here's https://db.tt/q479wUGY a description of the interactions of the 15M values I have found so far. Cheers Meinolf

Hi, the standard value is 3984 revolutions, not 1000. But, the influence of the start enrichment (standard map) is almost nil at normal ambient temperatures and it decays rapidly after several hundred revolutions. https://db.tt/SOJiFgSL Use the CO trim function in GuzziDiag to pass the test and set it back to the original value afterwards. Cheers Meinolf

Hi Christian, plenty of bins here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/znw3dz34cse6pp1/grundoRmK4/Moto%20Guzzi/MotoGUzzi%20Maps. This https://www.dropbox.com/sh/znw3dz34cse6pp1/hGTAQHsc0-/Moto%20Guzzi/MotoGUzzi%20Maps/61600.537.01_3D02VS9F_V11_SPORT_CE_MY00.bin should fit. Cheers Meinolf

Thanks

Hi Slavomir , may I share your download and post it in the German V11 forum? Meinolf

Hi everybody, (Hi Jaap, I believe I saw you during the V11 meeting on the Vogelsberg some weeks ago) I have been visiting this forum for some time and now registered. I am 47, recently widowed, have 3 lovely daughters and live in a small village called Uelversheim in Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany. After studying mechanical engineering I ended up in the PC industry and have been working there since 1986. My first bike was a 125cc Harley Davidson bought when Harley sold the factory in Italy in 1980, then a Honda CB500T and afterwards too many others to remember (BMW R65, GL1000, CB750KZ, etc). One bike I have had since the mid 80's is a BMW R90S, which I drove only infrequently while making my career, building the house and having a family. In '99 I found that I had a bit more time and needed a pastime for myself. So I rejuvenated the R90S and afterwards a Mille GT caught my fancy, eventually I bought one - this was my first Moto Guzzi - and enjoyed it tremendously. Shortly thereafter I thought I needed another bike which I would use during all seasons without bothering to keep it overly clean; that's when I purchased a Honda VF1000F. Alas, I don't seem to have the ability to neglect in me, because I spent as much time keeping it in good share as I did with the others. At around that time my wife was diagnosed with ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease). I started looking for a bike with a sidecar to still take her out for a spin and eventually found a V1000G5 with a Walter TR5. I could lift my wife from her wheel chair into the sidecar and belt her in securely. This worked for about a year until her condition worsened so that she could keep not upright any more. So I started looking for alternatives and by chance a GL1100 came my way. After installing a backrest I found that I could lift my wife onto the rear seat with the bike on the side stand (yes, it's that heavy and stable) and slip into the saddle and drive off with her resting her head on my back. That worked for another 6 months and then she started needing a breathing apparatus to keep from suffocating, so that's when the biking time for her was past. During these years a VF1000R came my way - it's one of my projects, another VF1000F which needs rebuilding of the heads, two VF750s, a Suzuki RV90 and eventually a LM3. 2 years ago I thought that I needed something more sportive and based just on the looks bought a '96 GSXR 750SRAD, which turned out to be a big mistake. Somehow I don't appreciate cruising at average rpms higher than the red mark on the Guzzi's and wearing my head lower than my behind. So this one needs to go. Last year I bought 2x old T850 Carabinieri's, the original idea to use one for spares and transform the other into a roadster-style vehicle. My youngest daughter wanted to join me on this project. After having looked at them as they stood in the garage I changed plans and will now restore one to its orginal state (windshield is broken, all the Carabinieri stuff was roughly removed, painting needs to be done, etc) and the other will become the roadster. British racing green, spoke wheels, Duc USD fork, P4 brakes, Centauro exhaust, wide bar, 200mm lamp and assorted other stuff are already waiting. This year a V11 ('02 with 46.000km) came my way and completed the portfolio. Maintaining all these bikes, fixing the occasional bigger problem and tuning them to my liking in addition to the job and taking care of family and house leaves me less time than I'd like to to drive, but still I manage to drive ~15.000km/p.a. My 2 oldest daughters are just getting their drivers licenses, so a old Z440LTD is just being revived for them. Neither of the daughters are appreciative, they want something more sportive, but my idea is to let them gain some experience on a bike where both feet touch the ground before they start flying low. To take care of the odd free moment I set up a small workshop (mill / lathe / TIG welding units /etc) in which the remaining time and winter evenings are spent relearning whatever metal craftsmanship what I have forgotten since my study. My favorite bikes this year seem to be the V11, the LM3, the Mille and the R90. The others are having their sabbatical this year. Glad to be here. Drive safely. Meinolf