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Everything posted by docc
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Sure would be good to see images of that bolt failure. Also, an idea how much rust and corrosion was involved. Just a reminder, @LowRyter, to have your technician inspect and service that outboard needle cage. Let us know if it proves also very rusty and needy . . .
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My recent experience (like, the last ten years) is to call when inventory is shown on these various websites. It is most common that the item is not in store inventory, might be in North America, and could be in Italy, yet might simply be NLA and the website has not been updated to reflect the changes. I suggest calling AF1 directly and finding out what the actual current availability is. As in, they say, "They are in North America, but we have to order ten." Or "There were ten in North America, but someone ordered them yesterday." I am sitting on a six month old invoice from a Moto Guzzi dealer for parts that had to come from Italy. "Be here in a few weeks." Six months later . . . .
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With these web listings, it is recommended to contact the shop and verify inventory. More likely this part is not in shop inventory, but may be "in North America (as Harper's verified for me), but other times may be in Italy. Or months later learn that it really wasn't available there, either. Again, Harper should have a few of these on hand in a few weeks, assuming they actually are "in North America." This is exactly the type of failure apparently being revealed here, not actual "shear" in the purest most definitive use of that term in the machinist's/mechanical engineering parlance. KaleV11's failure was apparently at or near"first thread to shank." Looking forward to more info from LowRyter . . .
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@Flooky, looks like this Picker Components High Current relay is the best available, according to our "Best Relay" thread. I wonder if you have a UK source for them? https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/picker-components/PC782-1C-12S-R-X/12352866 Data Sheet
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A very interesting concept. No doubt, each of us should be acutely aware of keeping the needle bearing cage serviced . While destruction of the seal surface of the pinion nose has already been noted as an adverse consequence of neglecting the outboard needle bearing cage of the reardrive, the possibility of it contributing to the forward bolt pivot failure is worth investigating. @LowRyter and @kalev11, take note to have this failure point inspected and serviced . . .
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One of our members is looking for a replacement ECU (anyone?). I went looking and see this NOS white-face Veglia in Oklahoma, USA. I don't know who this seller this is, but some of you come looking for this piece periodically . . . https://www.ebay.com/itm/325576021283?hash=item4bcdd7d523:g:0HcAAOSwTJVjxGrN&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA0LmNC8rcxLWaYrI1bsuSwmu3y5EUTu6BP08knT%2BXsoHgzWYlCVUdfHil15ZqtAerzqze%2BDO3iESOj%2FIlc2peEKYWR7WBBgKnSlfOwWYDHqkvdzWNTSqH0xt3sBVgdw8I3kxu3tGGGJMdBLAVackZOkQYJy1b0cPtd1YLB5guctH3B33edbfcEEvTcOKiNhOXCxZv5M0KksD1uaKf3VBdSqu3WmotMwrLO6Q0S4D7UBhrk6WIYGz14DB3PpUJ7NIbrwYYiWOhGevvVAU9kLm%2BH08%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR6Ld8tXdYQ https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/0HcAAOSwTJVjxGrN/s-l1600.jpg [edit: Looks like the trip reset knob is not shown.]
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This means that when I change my early V11 8.8 pivot bolt to the later 10.9 replacement, the tightening torque must be increased to this new value of 70Nm? Harper's also told me the new bolt (GU01357731) is a 1.5 thread pitch. My early(1999-2001) Parts Catalog specifies the nuts as M10-1.25 (with both washe and spacer) for the "1st Series" and M10x1.5 for the "2nd Series" (no washer, only spacer on the bolt head side). Both of those bolts are apparently superseded by GU01357731. So, also, pitch change(s). [edit: The 2004 Le Mans parts diagram @p6x linked on page one once again shows a 1.25 thread pitch with both a washer and a spacer.]
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"Egg-shaped holes in the frame tabs " are a compelling reason to see that the bushing is clamped by the frame tabs through the force of the bolt. Another trip through the Workshop Manual and I do not see the torque reaction rod depicted except where it is being disconnected from the reardrive. I do not see it mentioned anywhere else, especially in relation to the frame connection. Am I missing it somewhere? The general torque value page states that M10x1.5 is tightened 45-50 Nm (with no reference as to hardness ratings).
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I'm not sure I understand the value of investigating the original relay as it was proved failure prone from mid-2000 year. Yet, my 2000 Sport was delivered with the same relay in all four 4-pin (SPST) positions, and a different 5-pin (SPDT) in position #1. As mentioned, my dealer sent me a larger Siemens for the Start/#1 position very shortly. Original: Siemens V23073, the 4-pin are -B1005-A302 and the 5-pin is -B1008-A303 I see no markings indicating surge protection (either "R" or "D"). Certainly the #5 position relay was not different from the other SPST positions. Only the SPDT in position #1 differs. I cannot find data sheets for these old relays.
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"... V11 before 2003 (likely including the 2003 "Carryover Sport") do not have a hardened fastener at this pivot..." No. I am basing that on it having been stated the part number changed in 2003 and the fact that my early bolt has no headstamp and the replacement does (10.9). Along with the fact the original bolt configuration is NLA from Moto Guzzi (superseded?). AFAIK, there is no torque specification for this fastener in the Guzzi chassis. It is fastened with a lock nut ("NyLoc" type). Whether or not the bushing is intended to be "clamped" has been the subject of debate. I question whether this fastener could suffer from being unnecessarily overtorqued, leading to failure (especially the earlier, unrated, fastener). Also, whether the two fastener failures we have in question are actually best described as "shear" failures. Technically speaking, probably not. This is why I am asking both @LowRyter and @kalev11 to clarify the more exact description of their failures. Both of these examples are 2001 models. Finally, @LowRyter, to clarify: I have no failure, only replacing pre-emptively with what appears (to me) to be a superseded part. Learning from other's experience. Thanks for posting this!
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I am off the phone with Curtis at Harpermoto in the US (Missouri). He states the the later (hardened) bolt is available in NA and will make an order this afternoon. He confirmed the size is M10 x 1.5 x 59. I have committed to six of them (to replace mine and share), and he will have four left on hand. $2.60US each + S/H. He suggested putting together a kit which includes the lock nut (good idea to fit a fresh one) and the washer and spacer (most expensive part at $4.75US). I suggested we leave it at just the bolt and let folks decide what else to replace. For example, his careful discussion led me to see that I have no "washer" and my "spacer" is on the bolt head side. [edit: this configuration is shown in the Parts Catalog for the "2nd Series" V11 Sport 1999-2001 with the 1.5 thread pitch bolt.] Time to delivery is a hopeful 2+ weeks . . . (certainly in time for the sSSR in Kentucky). A couple take-away from this important thread, so far: Do not neglect cleaning and greasing this critical pivot. And, perhaps the greater discovery: V11 before 2003 (likely including the 2003 "Carryover Sport") do not have a hardened fastener at this pivot and an upgrade to GU01357731 may be worth considering. https://www.harpermoto.com/screw-10mmx59mm-01357731.html
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Where are these bolts shearing @LowRyter, @kalev11 ? At the head or at the thread/shaft interface?
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When the new Picker Components relays arrive (in a few days from onlinecomponents), I am planning a V11 RelayFest /TechSession. I can tell you the original Seimens are small, and the very first warranty/dealer support I received was a larger Seimens to fix in the Starter Relay/#1 position, as the troubles were already being reported. I'll report back with dimensions, yet we certainly found weight is an indicator: " . . . [OMRON G8HE] 20.0 grams with my analog method. For comparison, my original Seimans are 15.1 grams."
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My early bolt has a smooth head, no markings, indicating mild steel/unhardened. Do the later bolt heads (2003-onward) reveal a hardening level (i.e.: 10.9 or 12.9)? Knowing of these failures, it seems prudent to go with a hardened fastener in this location (as well as seeing to the maintenance). I wonder if Moto Guzzi superseded the part thusly . . .
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My original relays are in the their prescribed location: shelved in the pile cabinet, properly labeled , one example of seven generations of relays I have run on mySport (I skipped the TYCO, not haven fallen for that).
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According to this French site posted by @p6x, the part looks available, but the part number is different than from my 1999-2001 catalog (GU37357706): https://www.pieces-motoguzzi.com/guzzi-laverda-scarabeo/affectation_pieces_detachees/GU01357731 While MGCycle doesn't bring this number up (nor the number I posted), Harpermoto does show the -7731 part at $1.20US. This does NOT mean they have it! A call to Curtis is the only way to know: https://www.harpermoto.com/screw-10mmx59mm-01357731.html @LowRyter and @kalev11, where did your bolts break: at the head or at the base of the threads?
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I can get close with Mcmaster-Carr, but the minimum thread length looks like "26mm" and our application appears to be less than 20 of threads. So, the linked 60mm would not have enough clear shaft area. Perhaps buying the bolt longer and trimming it to length leaving the correct amount of the bolt shaft unthreaded . . .
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Parts Catalog for GU37357706 ("1st Series") states M10 x 59 (mm long), yet sourcing one with that much shaft area may not be as simple as a stop by the hardware store . . .
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That is good thinking and very possible. I have seen others dismount the relays for clearance. Also, I have sen the bottom of the seat pan "relieved" with a rotary tool (i.e.: Dremel®), and even seen the entire pan material cut away above the relays exposing only the foam material. It is evident when inspecting under the seat when there is seat pan contact with the relays. There are very distinct signs of abrasion and "dusting", dulling, or chafing where there has been contact. Good method to observe the corners and edges of your relays for this and take action to create clearance. (Added to the Underseat Maintenance Checklist )
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Talking about the frame end? Definitely an issue. When was the last time any of us inspected that? A formula for disaster when neglected. Kudos to your technician finding that. It should be inspected, cleaned, and greased with waterproof grease at every rear tire change . . . https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/topic/22039-torque-reaction-rods/ The torque reaction rod bushings , and its pivots, are a line item in the Wheels Off Maintenance Checklist:
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See? Corvettes are meant for sliding sideways. Volvo and V11? Not so much . . .
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Even with a heated jacket, this is my chosen limit (5ºC/40ºF). Not because I can't get comfortable, but more that I don't think the tires get the memo to also relax and get to work. After two of my (expert riding) buddies had traction loss crashes in near-freezing temps, I realized my Swedish car would light an ice warning at 38ºF/~3ºC. I figured the Swedes know quite a lot more about ice on the roads than I do and adopted the new limit for riding safety.
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That makes perfect sense, and explains why @Speedfrog sees that vulnerability from Relay#5's coil powered by the same feed as the ECU "downstream" from Relay #4. So some questions, do this spikes only occur when the coil is powered on and off, or do they occur continually? Also, is the magnitude of the spike amplified by the size of the coil? Always thinking "bigger is better," the OMRON G8HE have 1.8 watt coils, the CIT and PC that are refeneced are 1.5W (the CIT I am using are 1.2W). Perhaps the smallest effective coil is better as long as there is no "bounce" (Loss of contact from vibration or impact)? Finally, do the resistors serve some of this function by "buffering" the spikes? Enough to be adequately effective?
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I admit I do not understand from where the voltage spike would be coming from and across what terminals of the relay the diode would block it.
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Yes indeed, @Speedfrog, you are absolutely correct in this. I stand corrected having remembered this wrongly and having failed to look at my references before posting. Welldone, sir, and thank you for your diligence! About those beers I owe ya . . .