dlaing

That is just it, all the contrarians to Ratchet and you, have eliminated the air gap. You and Ratchet have certainly improved on the stock setup. I just disagree with your methodology and Ratchet's misuse of physics terminology, and I see room for improvement by increasing conduction and compensating for the increased heat reading being sent to the ECU. Excellent point! sorry I ever brought up the criticism about your use of duct tape, or do you use goose tape But I still have trouble with the idea that your reading will be too hot if you do that, but different tuning methods probably compensate for that While that arrangement should more accurately follow the changes in head temperature, it generally results in a higher reading resulting in the engine running too lean, unless of course you were too rich before the modification, or you remap the ECU, set TPS to make it run richer, use a power commander, etc. At least Ratchet, Myself and others (Dan???) experienced overly lean conditions when eliminating the air gap. I chose to eliminate the air gap and remap the ECU using TuneBoy. I still have some fine tuning to do to the map. (should have done this past Summer...oh well) Mercerized?

Inside the holder, you have an air gap with your GM setup, but most of those that have argued with you have created a path of conduction directly to the engine. A much more accurate test would be to put the sensors in the holder, bring a pot of water to a boil, reduce heat just enough to maintain roughly 100C, stick the sensor holders into the water, thread deep, and then take your reading. To measure cooling, stick them in ice water. A hair dryer is more suited for comparing air temperature sensors.

So, your goal is not to improve YOUR bike, but to waste the time of the HyperPro salesman, in your quest to "put a stake through" an alleged and somewhat weakly defined delusion, presumably that some advertise and hype progressive springs as "one size fits all" The truth of the matter is that the Wilbers, WP, and HyperPro, all offer an improvement over stock for most riders, yes if you weigh less than 50Kg you are better off with the stock springs, and if you weigh more than 150Kg or want the best possible set up for your weight and road conditions, many will do better swapping out straight rate until you find what is best for YOU. Rising rate springs work better over real world conditions of sometimes riding two up, sometimes riding on smooth roads, and sometimes riding on pot hole filled roads. Of course they can't do everything for everyone, but they do more for more people. Just dropping them in is half the battle. Pre-load and fork oil level should be optimized. You could very well find that the Wilbers and HyperPro are identical. Or, you might find the HyperPro is actually firmer, but it might work fine if you use a lower oil level. You use 100mm air space, and if I recall correctly you use "magic" numbers of 18mm unladen and 36mm laden. If the HyperPro is NOT identical, and if the higher number were actually right at the end of fork travel, your sag would not be much different. You might have to SUFFER with 19/35 instead of 18/36, but that does not mean it does not work, and if you were now nowhere near bottoming and having your travel restricted by the possibly firmer HyperPro, you could possibly increase your air space enough to allow for more full use of available travel. You state, "If you can't get specs, you aren't trying", but the truth is your specs don't tell us squat if we don't know how the specs are measured. If you wanna put a stake through it, you still have work to do.

By the way, I would not be surprised if the Wilbers and HyperPro were the same spring and were just measured with different methodology. Wilbers could be measuring just the first 150mm of compression, while HyperPro could be 50% of compression or 100% of compression. Any method could be being used. I would not assume they are both measuring the first and last millimeter of compression, nor would I assume they are both measuring real world rising rate as it rises on the bike, which is what matters. Here is a good (but dated) Yamaha FZ1 forum article comparing OEM, Traxxion and HyperPro http://www.yamahafz1oa.com/forum/showthrea...p?threadid=6694

Oh forF@CK sakes ratchet, my f@ckin' question was sincere! Your answer is reasonable, but raises another question, why do you want to replace the Wilbers? Also, What are your ideal spring rate numbers? And what are you ideal sag numbers? And yes, very few here have dedicated V11 Track bikes, but many here have had their opinions shaped by credible folk that do spend a lot of time setting up suspension for the track. There are reasons why each rising rate and straight rate are superior. Shall we get it on and rehash the debate? Maybe we could compare two straight and two rising rate fork springs: 7.2 to 15.0 Kg/cm HyperPro 7 to 11 Kg/mm Wilbers ~7 Kg/cm OEM 10 Kg/cm Traxxion

Meaning you are one to raise a fuss, yourself. Want me to find some examples?

What sizes of rider will that fit, and "not fit"? Without knowing linear rate curve I'd guess it would fit anyone from 50-150 kilograms who didn't need race performance maximization, and it would be far better than stock for any rider over 70kg. Rising rate springs DO fit ALL sizes better than straight rate springs. People who ride two up frequently or who face extremely varying terrain especially benefit from rising rate springs. Most racers however won't touch rising rate springs for the track with a ten foot pole. Why won't this HyperPro rising rate spring fit your objectives?

Well if that ain't the poet calling the lyricists a bunch of WRITERS!!!

Mine leaks, but not that much. Open the fill plug, let any excess drain out, reinstall fill plug, wipe it clean, don't worry about it, carry a rag with you and keep wiping it if it if you want. I sometimes use the "free" paper towels at the gas station. I don't think it will get on rear tire, but keep an eye out for signs of that happening.

Ewan and his riding buddy regretted selecting the Beemer over the KTM. The KTM Adventure is a great fit for someone Ben's size, no dwarf. But if we are talking adventure bikes for touring, the Quota is a very comfortable bike for a big rider, and you could pick one up for under $5000 Protection could be better. Maybe if you fitted some V1000SP fairing lowers to the Quota. Still for the super-slab, I'll take a Norge. With all the scooter/Guzzi shops out there, parts for the Norge should be more readily available.

Norge would be my choice. Most comfortable Guzzi ever, smoother engine than V11, anti-lock breaks, and handles much nicer than any full boat tourer. Even parts and service should not be too bad if you don't crash it. Close match to BMW in about every characteristic, but the BMWs are BORING at legal speeds, and boredom is a major factor when pounding the super slabs. On the other hand the BMW might be a little better fit for your size, the BMW may edge the Norge out in every category but fun, and the plethora of after-market parts for Beeemers is appealing.

Chicago will be available for the 2016 European-ish meet

OK, excellent. I just think when you reply with What? it is not constructive dialog and leads to an argument. But I will certainly agree that I was not being succinct. What I was trying to suggest, is that the notching effect of ball bearings can be eliminated with a plain bearing, and that the perceived negative effect of comparatively increased static friction would not be such a bad thing if kept to an acceptable level, and it may in fact be a good thing, as evidenced by the history of friction steering dampers and their value. A little bit of static friction combined with a lack of notchiness, could eliminate the alleged NEED for a steering damper. No, I don't think it would be as sweet a setup as a new tapered bearing and HyperPro RSC or Scotts damper with variable high speed damping, but it could it be about as nice as the OEM setup when in perfect condition, but it would be simpler and more problem free than the OEM setup with ball bearings and potentially leaky, jerky, BiTubo damper.

What?

What don't you understand Dan? Static Friction? Dynamic Friction? Sine waves and velocity? The value of friction dampers? The superiority of Hydraulic dampers to friction dampers? Are you just trolling for an argument as usual?

During handlebar oscillation, the bar travels in one direction and then another, and the velocity is not constant, it is like a sine wave. If the bar shakes and moves 10cm to the left, back 20cm to the right, then back 20cm to the left, and then stabilizes and goes about 10cm to the right all within ONE Second, then the bar has traveled at an average velocity of 60cm per second, but the speed varies from anywhere between 0cm per second and something greater than 60cm per second. At the moment in time that bar has reached maximum movement to left or right, the bar is traveling at 0cm per second and the static friction takes effect, if only for a brief moment in time, helping to break the wave of oscillation. Years ago riders debated the value of steering dampers when friction dampers were the only thing available, yet people still used them, for good reason. Technology has progressed with hydraulic dampers that increase resistance as velocity increases, offering almost no perceptible resistance to the rider. Yet today there are still skeptics that don't see the value of dampers. Comparatively there is no doubt the friction damper is inferior, but it does have advantages like not gushing oil all over when a seal blows, and the static friction does effectively counter oscillation, but the trade off is that the static friction is bad for the handling. Always a compromise, the friction dampers had to set just right. Kind of like the BiTubo dampers, but the BiTubos are superior to the friction damper. An excellent way to test a friction damper and f up your well being is to take the bike up to 120 MPH, take your hands off the bars and then whack the handle bar. Be sure to where a speedo and flip flops while doing this as it will make your death quicker.

The one superior characteristic of friction damping is that it reduces oscillation when your bars reach the apex of the sine wave going left to right or vice versa. This occurs at the moment where static friction is desirable. Of course static friction is not desirable most of the time, which is why hydraulic damping has become more prevalent. Plain bearings don't need pressurized oil, but a grease fitting or two would certainly ease maintenance. A sintered bronze bearing like Greybeard mentioned is exactly what I had in mind, not a pressurized fluid bearing, like the main crank bearings in the engine. There may even be dry ceramic or teflon bearings that could be even more ideal???? But again, we want low static friction, and I suspect awell greased sintered bronze is more likely to deliver there, not as well as tapered bearing, but the sintered bronze isn't going to develop a notch that increases the risk of tank slappers.

No, it was not meant as a joke. Many steering dampers are friction based and not hydraulic. But you could have a valid point about brake away torque, but I think the correct term is breakaway. Selecting a bearing surface with low static friction and high dynamic friction would be ideal for damping purposes but possibly would not work as a durable, low maintenance bearing surface. I do think a bearing surface like Greybeard mentioned would likely work very reliably, but yah, tightening to the point of trying to replicate a damper is probably a bad idea. Also to reduce break away torque the bearing diameter may need to be lesser and the steer stem length may need to be greater.... or maybe the breakaway torque is no big deal??? which is why I ask.

Let me see if I can really de-rail this thread... Excellent point about the bearings. My CB500F sure felt better after switching to after-market tapered bearings, and my V65SP felt a bit less stable after developing notches in the bearings. So, my question is, Why use ball bearings or tapered bearings instead of plain bearings? I have always thought tapered bearings were the way to go, but a plain bearing should wear very smoothly and have built in adjustable damping functionality, with far less complexity.

The only suspect that gave you opposition to the existence of Moly in RLSPH was RH. I opposed your claim that you could offer a life time supply of moly for $10. In earlier threads, the only one that came close to absolute proof of the existence of moly in the RLSPH, WAS ME, providing the Material safety sheet that showed molybdenum in the RLSPH. But of course Ratchet insisted that that was NOT convincing evidence...

Haikus cause speed wobbles? You ride a red frame Without increasing yolk rake You will crash and die LOL!

Then why did you say in "tongue in cheek" sarcasm that you had one of the good ones?

Thanks for clearing up that difference. Then I am not sure why you were arguing with me all this time. We just have a few things to clear up, like GuzziMoto and his beliefs that raking in increases rake, and that raking out is bad except when Guzzi does it. Also, I am on the fence as to Greg's claim of the existence of the raked out yoke on later red frames. I don't know if I could measure or detect a half degree difference, but I could probably measure the necessary setback for such a thing. And then there is the belief that lowering the front end makes the bike less stable. I'd like to put a nail in that one. The bottom line is that the better weighting of the bike when the front end is lowered, trumps the small decrease in rake and trail. If you don't believe the plethora of people who have tried it, give it a try yourself, just don't whack the bar while riding no handed.

"Either way it's hard to argue that a steering damper isn't a good back-up device anyway, just for those times when everything goes haywire and the front end wants to beat the steering head to death." And yet on this forum we have people unsuccessfully taking on the challenge of presenting such an argument. Incredible.

Careful, your Car-ma might run over Greg's Dog-ma Do you realize Greg thinks raking out at the yokes is a good idea, designed to save lives!?!!?!