GuzziMoto

Picture the front wheel and axle staying exactly where it is (since I don't yet have anyone saying they changed the wheelbase as well) and the fork tubes get rotatedback just a little so they are at a 1/2 degree shallower rake (that is a small amount). This would move the holes in the triple clamps back a little bit (the top would move more then the lowers) and would put the bores of the holes a little off perpendicular to the clamps. No shims or changes in trail required. Hope that helps.

Dave, raking out (or in) the fork tubes in relation to the steering stem does not mean the trail changed in any way. While it is possible that the trail did change when they did this, without knowing what the trail is on a pre offset clamp bike and a post offset bike we have no way of knowing what the impact if any on trail was. They could have given the bikes more trail with the new clamps or less trail, it comes down to how they moved the fork tubes. If the wheel base stayed the same then the trail did not change. If the wheel base got longer then the trail was reduced and if the wheel base got shorter then trail was increased. The angle of the fork tubes does not directly effect trail. Trail is purely a function of how much the center of the contact patch is behind the point where the steering axis would hit the ground if it went that far.

Good to hear. I love it when a company stands up like that.

Not sure you understand what I meant, in case you didn't let me point out that as I understand it on later red frame bikes Guzzi used clamps that changed the rake from 24 degrees (or what ever it was) to 24.5 degrees to add stability and slow the steering down. That is what I meant by "raked out". Going the other way would not have been a good idea in my opinion and I think 24 (if that is what they have) degrees of rake on a Guzzi with the right amount of trail is just about right. For the type of bike it is it gives the right balance of speed and stability. I know some have said there are issues with them, especially the early ones, but I still don't think that is a geometry thing but perhaps something not right with the bikes. Maybe it was built poorly or the frame is not straight or to spec. What ever it is it does not effect my wifes V11.

Sorry Greg, I shouldn't have said that. I was just making an tongue in cheek remark. Didn't mean to stir the pot like that.

emry, you clearly have a good grasp of this and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. We differ mainly in the details. But I still think that Guzzi's ill thought out first attempt at addressing any handling issues with the V11, real or not, by raking out the fork tube angle (even though it is only 1/2 a degree it is still going in the wrong direction) was a mistake. And whether they compensated for this change which reduced trail by adding more back in thru offset I don't know. But to assume they did is a mistake. And yes, as I have also said, trail is more a factor in stability then rake. That makes Guzzis choice to lessen the fork angle thru the triple clamps (raking the front end out) seem even stranger and less thought out.I find it interesting that every bit of info I can find on V11 steering geometry seems to give the same rake numbers and I think I have seen two different numbers for trail. Greg, I am glad to know that we have one of the "good" ones.

Axle nut, yes. The top clamp says 01493100. Where would you find the frame #?

That's fine, as you said it is not a clear cut issue. Chopper guys usually (or at least used to) list both the rake of the steering stem (as rake) and the extra angle the clamps add. In my opinion the problem with adding angle in the clamps is that while the forks are pointed straight ahead the extra angle is in line with the steering stem. But as you turn the forks that angle kicks the front wheel off to the side. It is no longer adding its angle to the steering stem rake entirely. The more you turn the forks the more of that angle goes off to the side instead of in line with the steering stem. This is not a big deal on choppers (they handle poorly to begin with) but on a sportbike anything more then a small bit causes wonkey steering geometry as the forks turn. This not only would kick the front wheel off to one side but would cause the trail to change as well. That is why it is used on choppers and drag bikes mainly. In fact, Kosman, who make them for drag bikes goes so far as to point out that it changes fork tube angle, not rake. But again, that is splitting hairs. The important part is that it is a crude wonkey patch that should have been done differently if at all. Guzzi engineering, gotta love it.

Greg, the number on the underside of the lower clamp is 502 481B. The last part of the vin # (I assume that's what you are calling frame #) is 112434. It was bought as a 2000 in early '01. What does that tell you?

Taking the tank off does not get you much, if any, additional access. It is a tricky job to do. I tend to use a punch and hammer, it is not the "right way" but it is the fast way. The pre load adjustment is at the top of the shock and hard to get to because of the airbox. I would measure your sag first. you should have about an inch of sag from fully extended to how it sits with you in riding position. If you are close with that and have no issues I would leave it alone until you have the bike far enough apart to make the job easier. If you are only 150 lbs I would not be surprised if it was good as it came stock. As far as if you need to change the preload, you can use some math to help you out. If you need say 1/4" more sag then figure that as a percentage of the total travel and then measure the shock shafts travel and figure the same percentage of that is the amount you need to move the preload collar. That will get you in the ball park.

Just when I thought this was digressing into an informative thread......

Thanks.

As I recall the forks have an axle nut. If I understand you correctly then this means they are the earlier forks without the funky offset. I will have to check this evening to confirm.

I think we are using different definitions for "rake". In my experience the common definition of "rake" is the angle of the steering axis. You can not change the rake angle of the steering axis with triple clamps. You can change the trail by changing the offset or you can change the fork angle if you were to bore the top and bottom clamps offset from one another or some adjustable clamp set allow you to change the offset of the top and/or bottom separately to some extent and this would change the fork angle (the steering stem would still pivot at the same angle). The effect on trail of this would vary as the forks are turned and as the suspension compresses. Talk about piss poor engineering. How hard could it have been to just have them weld on the steering head to the frame at a 25.5 degree angle?

Offset bearings are a different thing. In racing you may change out the clamps for ones with a different offset but this has nothing to do with rake. It is about trail. Offset bearings are used to change the rake but they actually move the steering pivot. What Greg seems to be suggesting is different. He seems to be saying that they bored the holes in the clamps at an angle so that the fork tubes were not at the same angle as the steering stem. If this is not what he is saying them I'm sorry, I may be misunderstanding him. But if you change the rake "in the clamps" that is different to me then offsetting the steering stem (which is really just changing the steering head angle without the hassle of actually moving the steering head).

I am curious about this. I have a good bit of experience with bikes but have not seen a bike other then a cruiser use the clamps as a place to adjust the rake. It is not a normal thing and results in wonkey steering geometry. Where did you find this info?

25 degrees from vertical is what I thought the earlier frames were. Next question is are the later frames indeed 26 degrees or are they 25.5 degrees (or as Greg seems to be suggesting the same and the difference is in the clamps)? And has anyone actually measured theirs (while it's stock, once you start jacking up the rear and/or dropping the front it is gonna be different) to confirm that the published numbers are accurate? I know there is gonna be a plus or minus factor in there but I wonder how close their published numbers are.

I have not measured the steering head on either bike but from the pics posted in another thread the two frames are substantially different. It is possible to add or subtract rake in the clamps but it is not a common way for a manufacturer to do it. I would be surprised if that is how Guzzi did it but Guzzi have surprised me before.

I believe there have been some pics posted showing the difference in the frames between early "red frame" bikes and the later ones. There was a easily seen difference between the two. But what I am curious about is are all red frames the same and all black frames the same. I was under the impression that all red frames as well as the black frame from the RM were the same 25 degree rake and all the other black frame bikes were the 26 degree rake. I don't know if trail changed and by how much. Most of my experience is with the early bikes.

Yes, .850 liters is the same as 850 cc's or 850 milliliters.

Please elaborate, Greg. I thought the earlier (often referred to as red frame) V11 Sports had a 1 degree steeper head angle. Is this a separate change to the steeper steering head angle and is this 1/2 degree really in the clamps and not the steering stem? And is there a change in trail to go along with this? And are you saying that all pre LeMans V11s use the same frame, that the black ones and the red ones both have the same head angle? I was under the impression that the color actually meant something and that the red fame bikes were different to the others. If this is not true that is very interesting to me.

At ANY throttle position V11s (and newer Guzzi's) are on average lean at lower rpms and rich at higher rpms. This is done to meet emissions standards. PC's allow you to correct this and improve the way your bike runs but the results are only as good as the guy creating the map. You do not need a PC to have a great running Guzzi but it helps.

Sorry to hear. My sympathies to those he left behind.

Yes, there's a difference. Dirt bikes rarely have tank slapper moments and when they do it is usually not due to steering geometry or weight balance but from rocks and ruts deflecting the front wheel. In fact, to paraphrase an add for a company selling dirt bike steering dampers, they " reduce arm pump and fatigue". They have much the same benefits on a dirt bike as a steering stabilizer has on a 4x4. You should know about that. They reduce the effort needed to keep the front wheel tracking straight inspite of all the rocks and ruts it is hitting. All that stuff is not usually an issue on street unless you have messed up big time...

And now you're gonna tell someone from middle Tennesee how people from middle Tennesee speak... Is there nothing you don't know better then those that do?