GuzziMoto

I have no doubt that some red frame Guzzis can or will wobble. I have only ridden 3, and none of them wobbled. But since I have not ridden all of them I defer on that to people who have ridden one that wobbled. But the real question is WHY do they wobble (the few that do) and did Guzzi change the geometry to stop them from wobbling. First the why part. Lets see, stock geometry of a red frame Guzzi is pretty conservative by todays standards. Even when they were new they were not pushing the boundaries of geometry. Plus you have the question of "If it is the geometry that causes them to wobble why don't they all wobble, since they all have the same geometry?". The answer would appear to be that it was not the geometry causing some of them to wobble. If it was then since all the red frame V11s share the same geometry they would all wobble. They don't so it is not. But there are many other things that could cause a bike to wobble. It could be a frame rigidity issue. Again, the same process of commonality tends to rule that out. But it is possible that some frame were lacking in that dept due to incorrect bolting up or flawed frames. I cannot say that is not the case so that I cannot rule out. What else causes wobbles. Well, it can be due to anything from tire pressure to rider technique, poor suspension setup to faulty steering dampers. But one thing is for sure, it has to be something that is unique to the ones that wobble and not something shared with those that don't. This rules out a few things, like geometry. Now as for why Guzzi changed the geometry of the later bikes (and as I recall, they did not across the board switch but actually they sold both variants during the transition. This also tends to rule out the theory that the red frame bikes were prone to crashing). I would venture a guess that they received some bad press from the Euro mags as well as customer feed back that cried for a more traditional steering feel. The bad press from the Euro mags part is easy to believe as I have seen them do the same to other bikes that were perfectly fine when rode correctly, but the Euro press (at least some of them) seem to feel it is their job to ride the test bikes in whatever stupid or crazy manner they can in an effort to make the bikes misbehave and then if it does they slam the bike for being dangerous and/or flawed. I will admit that this sells magazines, but it has little to do with the actual quality of the bikes, unless you think that we need to be saved from ourselves. I would guess that the bad press (if it really happened, I am only guessing) coupled with customer feedback calling for a slower steering, more traditional Guzzi feel, triggered the change. Probably more to do with customer feedback then bad press, judging by the gradual changeover rather then a sudden switch. But, I reckon this is all a waste of time as I doubt Greg or Hack will change their minds on this. In the end we all have to make our own decisions about what we believe and we typically base that on our own experiences. In the end, my experiences are that I have been thrown off 3 bikes in a wobble. None were Guzzis. One was a TL1000R (they tend to wobble when you put slicks on them), one was a FZR 400 (it only did it because it suffered a flat tire which triggered the wobble, in spite of geometry more aggressive then a red frame V11) and the last was a Sportster (which did it because I screwed with the geometry in an effort to make it handle). None of the wobbles were the bikes fault. Some people like to blame the bike but I know it was my fault in all three cases. But I also know that a red frame Guzzi is NOT inherently unstable and if it wobbles there is something wrong (with the bike, the rider, or both).

There are a few people who have completely removed their steering dampers. I have yet to hear of anyone having a problem due to this course of action. My wifes V11 (a red frame) has spent the majority of it's 40k+ mile life without one and that includes racing it. Guzzis have pretty relaxed steering geometry, even the red frame ones, and the steering damper is more for show and possibly feel (it will make your Guzzi feel more stable at the expense of steering effort/speed) The one thing I would not do is run a damper that is not right (i.e. no oil). My fear would be that if the damper locks up or develops binding that could cause a problem. I would either replace it or take it off.

I have the rear section of the fender with the tail light and the tag light. I do not have pics yet. If you are in a hurry you can PM me where you want it sent and I'll see if I can mail it off to you. If you don't want it just send it back.

From what I understand there is no way your Guzzi can work correctly with the stock engine temp sensor. It has way to much thermal mass and only measures the temp of liquids, or atleast that is what I've heard on the internet so it must be true. My V11, well it does run great with the stock engine temp sensor. But it must be a fluke. The internet wouldn't lie.

The Quat D is not a two into one system. It does not have a collector to merge the pipes. It is a single muffler with two inputs. As for why, I'm not sure. I would think it has to do with the acoustic effect of a collector. Real Murikin muscle has headers with collectors. But I could be wrong. I am not trying to say one is better then the other. They are just two different types of sounds. Many people prefer the sound of a two into two system. It is a matter of personal taste.

The one I heard was not much, if any, louder then the others. I have not seen inside one but it is clearly different then a two into two setup.

I have heard both. And while I do agree that I have not heard a bad sounding Guzzi, the FBF's only sound like a Murikan muscle car until you hear the Quat D's. The FBF's have a softer, deeper sound compared to the Quat D, which has a harder, raspier sound. It is like the difference between a racebike (Quat D) and a race-replica (FBF or most of the other two into two's). The only thing that sounds more agressive on a Guzzi is a two into one system. Haven't seen one for the V11, though. Greg, if you aren't certified to identify "irritations", how do you expect to "fix" them. Clearly if a some Guzzi's have a problem with ETS mass, then they all must and some of us are just not capable of identifying that our Guzzi's have this "irratation".

The comment was directed at the person I quoted. He has a habit of throwing this (and other not quite relevent) things into threads they don't belong in. Hack and some others have determined (with no actual scientific testing, only seat of the pants "it runs better so it must be more accurate" type testing) that the stock sensor has too much thermal mass to accurately measure the temp of the engine. They have come up with a air temp sensor that measures the temp of the air next to the engine but has much less mass. They believe this is a more accurate way to measure engine temp but their view is not shared by all. Some believe that thermal conductivity (which the air temp sensor way is lacking in) is an issue as well. There is a long thread (possibly one of the longest on this board) going round in circles about this subject, until it was locked due to the way people were behaving.This whole stupid issue has become something like a religion, and the true believers in the low mass air temp sensor look down on the non-believers. You will have to make up your own mind. The brass holder you have can be a good thing, but it is not without it's down sides as well. Some insulate it to prevent heat loss and most apply a thermal compound between the sensor tip and the holder to improve thermal conductivity. Sorry to pull yopu and your thread into this messy affair.

Unless you trailered your bike to the testing station, by your own testimony the stock sensor would maintain a higher temp reading (some how possibly higher then the actual engine temp?) longer. Now it's the other way around. Is it even relevent to the issue? Yeah, SOMEONE needs to wake up all right....

You're right, I am using the wrong name. I meant to say I have the ContiForce tires. I don't know why I can't keep their names straight, but I can't seem to keep Continentals tire names straight. Sorry for the confusion.

The Conti Sports are supposed to be higher mileage then the Attacks. Mine appear to be lasting pretty well so far, but time will tell.

I had the previous gen Z6 on my Griso. Worked very well and got good mileage out of it but it was a very noisy tire. Have not tried the new Z6. Currently I have Conti Sports on. Decent tire but nothing special (except the price, great deal).

I found it. It is not in perfect shape, however. It has two holes in the leading edge of it for bungee hooks and a fair bit of scuffing to it as a whole. I will see about pics if you're interested. Shame you're on the other side of the country.

I have only done a few track days, but that's because I was too busy racing to do them. You are right that you can learn more about how to ride on a race track then you could on the street. But even setting up a course in a parking lot can teach you alot. Anywhere where you are in a controlled enviroment. If you want me to take issue with what you said, okay. A Honda CBR 600 is a boring bike to ride and should not even be mentioned in the same breath as Guzzi. Faster, maybe on the track but not on the street with me riding it. It is easier to go faster on a big twin then a modern 600 for an old fart like myself. Those 600's are for kids. And while track days are great (or actually racing), I have much respect for people who make their bikes go faster then they did stock. And Guzzi's are perfect for this kind of thing. There is more room for improvement in a Guzzi then in something that has been engineered to be as fast as it can be already.

What part of the USA are you in? I think I have the stock fender and tailight laying around. I will check.

Unfortunately, still doing it in 4th does not mean it can't be a gearbox issue. It would depend on which shaft the vibration is coming from. But if it stops doing it in 4th it is likely a gearbox thing. It might just be a harmonic imbalance (which while not good, may never actually cause a real problem). But then, you should not listen to me as I am not there and have not seen/felt the vibration.

I agree. Changing the ECU is not for everybody. I did not do it. I was only trying to say that changing the ECU gives you greater capability to perfect the way the motor runs, not a promise of success. As I understand it, Cliffs ECU lets you adjust timing as well as fueling. that is nice. And yes, any way to adjust fueling is better then no way to adjust fueling. As people have proved, you can even adjust fueling by fudging the engine temp sensor. One thing that seperates the better ways from the not so better ways is resolution, how precise and adjustable is it? Can it adjust one area without effecting another. The Power Commander does that pretty well. The original Power Commander was okay, but it did not have the resolution the newer ones have. The 2nd gen PC and later versions are nice and I can not wait to be able to put one on my Griso.

Elaborate on which part? The part about replacing the ECU?, for a V11 that would be Cliff's MYECU. The part about the first gen PC's not being that great? I was told they fudged sensor inputs to achieve the desired fuel output. Whether this is true or not I cannot prove. But they did not work that well. You had much less tuning ability then you do now. The saving grace for them was nobody else really made much. And by the time other companies came out with crappy sensor fudging boxes they had already figured out how to do it better. Now they make some very refined and integrated devices.

I'm sorry that what you read into my "food for thought" statement was so upsetting. But all I did was point out that my new Guzzi cost less to buy then what a friend paid for a new Guzzi in '93. I did not suggest that a new Guzzi should cost MORE then one did in '93, nor did I attempt to factor in what $17,000 was worth in '93 versus what $14,000 is worth today. Yes, they do buildmore Grisos today then they built Daytonas in '93. But as far as I know they likely actually made a profit selling Daytonas in'93 and they are not, apparently, making a profit selling Grisos today. My point was, since you did not seem to be able to grasp it the first time, is that in '93 they priced Guzzis based on how many they could sell much better then in todays Piaggio age where they based there margins on how many they wanted to sell. They set too low a price on the current bikes to make sufficient profit on them selling in the volume they sold. Period. They expected to increase sales by nearly 50% and based prices on that and instead sales were actually down from what I understand. Edit deleted

Nooo..., It was designed to correct for bad fueling demanded by EPA standards. European bikes may not have had as bad a problem with this in the past but I suspect that nowadays European bikes would benefit as much as US bikes as far as correcting poor fueling to meet emission standards. Whether Power Commanders work over there or not has little to do I suspect with whether they are common or not. More to do with market attitudes. The original Power Commander was not a great product. It relied on input trickery I believe to get a modified output. The subsequent versions are better then most like products and in my opinion about the only way to get better results is with a product that replaces the ECU altogether.

A proper two into one collector is a nice bit of kit, but if the dip in torque does not bother you then it is of no more value to you then any of the other mods.. If you like the feel of the bike as it is, then ride, ride ride.

Nooo....., the WANT to sell more Guzzi's to more people. They NEED to make a profit. The problem they have right now is that when deciding how much they can sell the new Guzzi's for they based their calculations on not how many they sold last year but how many they wanted to sell this year. That is a classic bean counter mistake. What they should have done is based the price of a new Guzzi on how many they sold last year (that would mean a higher price per bike) and if they sold more this year then they did last year they could adjust the price for next year to reflect that. Just food for thought, back in '93 my friend bought a new Daytona for $17,000 (he just sold it to me for a bit less). I bought my Griso for $14,000 in '06. No one wants to pay more for something, but selling a low volume hand built motorcycle for less today then it would have cost in '93 (not even taking into account what $17k was worth back then) is an odd business plan.

You may have a bad Power Commander, but that aside, if your bike runs better without a Power Commander then it does with one (assuming the PC is not defective) then it means the map in the PC is not correct. Even a box stock Guzzi can run better with a Power Commander then it does without. The stock map in the ECU is not even close to perfect and leaves plenty of room for improvement from a PC. You may have a bad PC and if I were you I would investigate that further, possibly by trying the same PC on another Guzzi and seeing if the same symptoms occur.

I would first check the fuse and the relay. Swap the relays around. All but one of the stock relays are the same and thus interchangable. Most seem to go with all the same when they replace them (as most end up doing). The relays are a common issue and if you check your manual you will see that one relay not working can take out several systems. I believe the systems you described are all on one relay. The head light has two different bulbs in it as I recall. The main bulb is on the same relay as the tail light I think, but the running light is on another relay and can give the impression that the headlight is lit. But all this is from memory and I could be wrong. Check the wiring diagram and it will tell you for sure.

Relays have caused the exact same symptoms on my wifes V11. I now carry spare relays whenever we go far from home. And the first time it happened my local dealer already new what was wrong before I finished describing what happened. It is a known fault. The stock relays fail. It is also true that some have had issues with the connectors that the relays plug into, so that is the next place I would look. But if you can be more specific about what happens when it doesn't start (does the fuel pump run, does the starter run, anything clicks?) we could be more specific about what to do.