GuzziMoto

Some days I'm not sure if Guzzis engineers are 50 years behind or 100 years ahead.

Well said. I would add that you can't run Guzzi the same way you would run Aprilia or Piaggio and expect it to work as well. In fact, out of all the other makes Piaggio owns, Guzzi has probably the most in common with Vespa. People do not buy Guzzis because they are the fastest or best in any given way. I bought mine (3 so far) because of the way they make me feel, the emotional connection to them. Their history and the fact that they are hand built in Mandello is part of that (to me).

Well, all this talk has motivated me to put both bikes (07 Griso 11 and 00 V11) to another back to back comparison. I have done it a few times already, but look forward to doing it again. I will agree that the Griso chassis is more complient and forgiving. But a less rigid chassis is often that way, take for example MX chassis's. The move to a more rigid chassis was followed by a steep learning curve on how to set up the suspension and even a couple steps backwards to add flex back into the chassis to "improve" handling.

I doubt that Guzzis use special injectors. You may find the same injector from a different source to be cheaper.

It looks like there are a couple changes made to accomplish the rake change. It does not appear to be merely a change in rake alone. There is a step down to lower the steering stem, and the distance from the front engine mount bolt holes (atleast that is what I think they are) to the steering stem is noticeably increased by what looks to be an inch or so. Thnks for the pics, they are worth 1,000 words each.

To each their own, you gotta go with your experiences in this matter and I have to go with mine. And mine is that I have NEVER seen a bike wobble so bad it "broke" the steering dampener, but I have seen a few broken steering dampeners cause bikes to wobble. I did have a Harley racebike wobble so bad it broke the steering stop, but it did not break the dampener. But we don't really know what happened, so it is just speculation. All I'm saying is that my V11 handles sharper then my Griso, bumpy roads or smooth it does not matter. Yes the IOM is like few other places and I would not race ANY bike around their. I do respect those who do but I do not wish to be amoung them.

If he had a broken steering dampener, that would explain why his bike was wobbling. A faulty steering dampener can without a doubt make a V11(or likely any other bike) wobble. While I have never run the IOM (and never will, those guys are wack. I was watching it in HD last night and the bikes keep getting faster but the track keeps getting bumpier it seems) I am not a someone who hasn't done things but sits on the sidelines telling people who do actually do things how they should be done. I have ridden my share of bikes around race tracks and done well enough. I make no claims to being the best, but I am far from the worst. If you disagree with me, fine. I don't really care. Personal preference is a big part of bike handling, I just happen to prefer the sharper edge of the V11 to the softer edge of the Griso.

Moving the front wheel closer to the motor and the rear wheel further back seems like going in the right direction to me. Too bad people like that don't work at Guzzi any longer.

I have both a Griso and a red frame V11, and once properly setup (the V11 needed dampning in the front forks and a quality shock) the V11 outhandles the Griso hands down. The Griso is easier to ride fast, but can not go as fast. The Grisos frame feels less stiff, not stiffer, to me and does not provide the level of feedback the V11 does. When you see a V11 wobbling or weaving, it is likely due to something not being setup right. You can make a V11 handle poorly but if you set it up right it is still the best handling bike Guzzi has built in my opinion. Style is a whole nother matter, and while I too love the looks of the V11 I also find the Griso to be beautiful. I prefer it with the pipe exiting on the right (as mine does now) and also prefer the sound of the 2 into 1 system. It has a meaner, less Ducati like tone.

I think that is a interesting idea. The counter shaft in axis with the swingarm pivot is a good idea but as with most design changes it has advantages and disadvantages. You've mentioned some of the adv., but one disadvantage (compared to a more conventional chain drive arr.) is that in a well designed chain drive setup you actually get the rear wheel pushed down into the asphalt under accelleration for better traction. I do not believe that this setup allows that. I also like the idler setup the new Buells have.

Hack, my point is that in normal sport riding on the road, the extra 4 inches (roughly) of wheelbase is not a problem. It is only when taking tight, slow corners that you really notice it. A Griso is not the best choice for parking lot racing, but it is still fun and others do it on harder bikes then a Griso (like Harley baggers and V-Rods). Sometimes the reward for doing something isn't based on how easy it is but rather how hard. I have other bikes that I also used for parking lot racing, but unfortuneatly the parking lot racing series I used to do has shut down. So now I race my SuperMoto in local races. Still huge fun, but not something to do on ANY Guzzi. I don't think the driveshaft is that big a part of the weight, but I have not weighed one. A Guzzi D/S is much shorter and smaller in dia. then a Car D/S, so that may be part of it. Besides, I would rather have Ti then CF.

Hack, I have a Griso and even though it has a wheelbase way over your 1480mm line in the sand, it actually handles the twisties very well. Yes, a shorter wheelbase can be a good thing, and I would not mind if my Griso had a shorter wheelbase. But wheelbase length is not all there is to good handling and I have ridden a few bikes with longer wheelbases and they can handle very well. The only place I have found it to be a serious drawback is tight corners at lower speeds like when doing parking lot racing. The long wheelbase just won't let the bike turn as tight as you want. But the trade off can be better handling in faster corners. Just food for thought.

It could be that the injector is just dirty and cleaning it will fix it. I have not had good luck with that but maybe you will. But as you mentioned, it could also be a broken or worn/gauled part that is causing the problem. All the cleaner in the world won't fix that. As I recall you don't have to remove the throttle body and they are pretty easy to remove. The only tricky bit was the clamp on fuel connection is a one time use clamp. But I have only actually had to remove the injectors on a Buell, never on my Guzzi so don't trust me on that.

If they want to become a maker of disposable bikes like the big four, or worse yet like Hyosung, then it doesn't matter where they're made. But I will not buy one. To be successful as a premium manufacturer you have to offer more then just a bike. It has to connect with the buyers in a way that makes them willing to pay more for your product then what they would pay for an ordinary one from a mass producer. I could have bought two bikes for what I paid for my Griso. I bought a Griso because I wanted a premium, hand built motorcycle that I connected with. I would hate to see them leave Mandello. It would not be a step forward. I don't think it would be the end of Guzzi, but it would be a step in that direction. But recently they have made a few steps in that direction, like the decision to no longer warranty certain things like broken body panels. If you pay a premium price for a bike, you expect to be treated like a premium customer. That is where the accountants don't get it a can kill and company buy cutting corners and saving costs in the short term but losing business in the long run. Ducati learned that lesson. Will Guzzi?

As I mentioned, I had an injector stick open (on a Buell) and the final solution was to replace it. By this point the injector needs to be replaced in my opinion and anything in a can will only delay the inevitable. You could send the injector off to someone who actually cleans and flow tests them, but that could be more money then replacing it.

I think you're right about the 8 valve being more raw and visceral. But I was refering to the Griso 1100 which is more relaxed and refined. The chassis of my Griso is also softer and less precise then the chassis on my wifes V11 and on a dyno my Griso 1100 has less power then my wifes V11 but only due to the motor work our V11 has. My Griso has more power then our V11 had to start with. I probably would haved prefered to have an 8 valve Griso but it didn't even exist when I gought my Griso. I really wanted the prototype with the 8 valve motor and in some ways the new 8 valve is that and more. But for me it is too late, I can't justify another Griso and I'm not good at selling bikes. Better at buying.

Interesting how people can see the same thing so differently. I have a Griso 1100 and a red frame V11. The Griso is a more comfortable and more refined feeling bike that you can easly ride at a good clip. The V11 is a more hard edged, raw motorcycle that you can ride faster if you know what your doing. The Griso does have more power stock, but our V11 has motor work that gives it a few hp more then the Griso. If I had to get rid of one or the other the Griso would be the one to go, but I hope to keep both. But my shed is getting crowded..... If I was buying one or the other, I would buy a V11. But the Griso is great, it just isn't the same as the V11 and to me the V11 speaks to me. The only other street legal Guzzi (in the US) I would want more is a Daytona....

I DID pay attention and I DID see that. So does that mean you're allowed to be a Richard because it was only 16 minutes before what you posted? Before is before, 16 minutes or 60. What kind of excuse is that?

Let it go Hack, Give the lady a break. Besides, she had already discovered that the breather hose had split before you posted that she should check it. May be if YOU had read HER previous post..... Nevermind. Just let it go. Heather, best of luck to you with your sweet bike. There is a ton of info on this board, some of it even from Hack. But he lacks people skills sometimes so you may need to toughen up your skin. But he means well (I think).

My wifes red framed V11 (supposedly the more unstable version) works much better without a steering damper. It has never shaken its head or otherwise indicated that it needs a steering damper. And that does not suprise me because it has pretty mild geometry. The damper is more for show. It does slow the steering down and make the bike feel more stable and if that is something that appeals to you then by all means run a steering damper. If not, pull it and stick it in the top of the tool chest where it can do no harm. I have heard of more people figuring out that their steering damper was the cause of their bikes handling woes then I have heard of people crashing due to head shake. Just wait, though. Someone will probably post something saying how important a component the steering damper is and how you're crazy to run without it. Think for yourself.

The forks are not an unusual length. But the steering stem tube in the frame is sized for older forks and some newer forks with larger steering stems will not fit. More importantly, the early red frame V11s had a steeper head angle and a shorter wheelbase as a result. Some with later V11s may choose to alter their bike to be more like the early bikes, or take it even further. When you change your rake you must also consider the effect it will have on trail. Yes, the frame is good(some including myself prefer the red frames). It has a good blend of ridgidity and light weight. Unfortunately the rest of the bike is heavy. The engine is good but there is room for improvement, the electronics are good but have a few faults (micro relays tend to fail, etc.). The swing arm could stand to be longer and the pivot does not line up well with the front U-joint. Longer swing-arms improve traction and rear suspension action as well as moving the weight balance forward. If your bike has Ohlins a re-valve and springs is usually all you need. If you don't have Ohlins then replacing the shock and forks is your best bet but I only replaced the shock and settled for modifying the forks and it has worked OK for a lot less money. The stock wheels are the best place to lose weight, but any weight you can lose is good, especially off the rear.

Would you care to give more details on how you did it. It sounds like a very sweet Guzzi and some of us are actually interested in doing those types of things to our bikes as well. Always good to know what has worked for others. Inquiring minds.... Forget I said that.

Lets see... You post an opinion about something you appear to know nothing about, I counter by pointing out that it is possible to achieve what you said can't be done. You then post that I don't know what I'm talking about since I did not include any direct examples and I counter with direct examples. You then ( no doudt in a whiney, high pitched, voice) post (insert fake air quotes here) well... well... well.... your typing is bad (un-air quote). Well played Hack. I have no rebuttal to that. My typing does suck. You win. You have out done yourself. If only it was relevent.

Well said, Paul. Some people don't understand that just because you are trying to improve the way your Guzzi works doesn't mean you are trying to turn it into a Jap bike. If I wanted a Jap bike I would have bought one. I paid extra to get a Guzzi. That does not mean Guzzi's are perfect as they roll out of the factory, far from it in fact. Guzzi spends less on their R & D dept. then Harley spends just listening to what its customers want. If you are happy with the way your Guzzi is stock, great, I'm happy for you. But there is more room for improvement in a Guzzi then there is in a typical Jap bike. For evidence I site the aforementioned bikes of Paul, Mille108, and others as well as my wifes. Her's started with 72 hp at the rear wheel. with less then $1500 worth of mods (PC, porting, pipe) it bumped up to 86 hp. That is almost a 20 % increase in power with an IMPROVEMENT in drivability. Just try getting a 20 % increase in power from a modern Jap sport bike and see how much it costs both in money and drivability. It also has a Penske skock and Marz. forks that I modded in my shed to actually give them compression dampening and the steering damper has been pitched. Again, a large improvement in performance for less then $1000 spent. If you have more then two brain cells to rub together and have any experience with modern Jap bike you understand how hard it is to get the kind of improvements I got very easily with a Guzzi Not everybody wants or needs to modify their Guzzi. But if you do want to improve the way your Guzzi works, then the potential is there. Just ignore those who say it can't be done because they know not of what they speak. There are enough people to have modded their Guzzis and been successful at it to show that the nay sayers are wrong. P.S. The idea that Hack, who actually butchered his engine temp sensor and turned it into an air temp sensor in the name of "improving it's accuracy", has the nerve to tell someone else that modifying his Guzzi to make it into a better working bike is a wast of time is so laughable that I almost feel sorry for him. What a deluded little mind.

Good lord you are thick, Hack. How is it in a thread about chassis and suspension setup you go off on a pointless rant about engine performance? WTF? And to answer your question (I think there was a question in all that drival), you can BUY the parts to alter your late model V11 to mimic the early V11 steering geometry. It is not a secret and it is not voodoo. It works. Whether you want your V11 to steer like a early V11 or not is a personal preference thing. It is not a case of better or worse as much as it is different. I'm sure someone who thinks if Guzzis were meant to have better brakes then they have they would have come with them from the factory would not do such a thing, but for the rest of us it is a viable choice. If you choose to try offset bearings, and/or lengthen the swingarm in an attempt to achieve better weight distribution, reduce the amount of weight it has with lighter wheels or other parts, move the weight the bike does have around in an attempt to improve on the way it came stock, or even put a narrower tire on the rear then what it came with, then more power to you as long as it's what you want. The fact that Hack does not seem to think the V11 needs to be improved upon (or can be improved upon) is meaningless and unimportant. I am sure it is fair to say that most of the owners here have moddified their V11s in some way from stock and feel that that mod has made their V11 a more enjoyable bike to ride, even Hack has altered his V11 from stock. I'm not going to touch the whole motor mod thing as you've posted that same quote before and I said what I think then (I believe that thread was actually about motor mods).