v11cafe

Guzzi makes clear in workshop manuals, that zero tps is 150mv+-15mv , just considers that this is the last step if the bike doesn't idle ok. I believe you have put it right as the first step,..and I repeat it in all "variations"...when you set zero tps to150 mv +-15mv... you don't touch it again during next steps,... (maybe I'll try it to see what happens...although it seems a bad idea) Right Idle throttle screw= RITS Left Idle throttle svrew = LITS The critical difference ....is that forum method suggests the idea to back off RITS , and then set tps value using LITS with rod connected.... at idle. 1/...." set tps value using LITS with rod connected and RITS backed off" an easy experiment...since your RITS is backed off and rod connected , connect voltometer , key on/engine off, open full the throttle grip and let it close a few times. I saw difference in readings every time I did it, some times at the range of 10mv+-. Experiment 2...connect voltmeter, disconnect rod, key on/engine off, open full by hand right butterffly, let it close (...gently???) a few times, and check the readings. (you check the base tps 150mv+-, since your RITS is backed off ) I saw differences not more than 2mv+-. If this behavior applies only to my V11, then I am not right...and I have another problem. If your V11 does the same,....connecting rod lash is the suspect. 2/....now about " set tps value ...... at idle." All Guzzi manuals / technical videos etc.specify that tps values are meant, engine off-key on. Using Guzzi proposed tps value at idle results to a lower idle than desired, since values at idle are higher than key on/engine off. So even if you use LITS with rod connected, instead of Guzzi way , RITS with rod disconnected, setting tps value key on/engine off is the only way to use Guzzi values (proposed for every V11 variant) as a starting point. Plus from V11 owner manual.... "Starting phase When the ignition switch is in operation, the unit feeds the fuel pump for few time and detects the throttle angle and the temperature of the engine........."....so tps angle at idle has no meaning for the Ecu, I read in an older post of Ryland that his cafe sport has a 0.484V reading at idle, I tuned mine with 0.472V ( Guzzi value 465mv+-5, took upper limit and added 2mv, because zero angle tps was 152mv) engine off/ key on and ended up using forum method almost at the same number 0.483V +-2mv when everything was balanced, with an idle at 1000rpm+-50rpm. If I increased the idle to 1150rpm, the value would have been different. If my base tps was 159mv(within limits), again the tps idle would have been different....etc So tps value at idle depends on many variables, and different readings at idle may still produce a balanced engine, but if we want to compare numbers, there should be agreed how readings are taken. "Variation 1" is nothing more than an experiment to incorporate, in forum method info from other sources, and without any really new idea (only setting tps value with key on /engine off,as Guzzi proposes) Therefore it is not a proven method since I am the one and only....tester...... Forum method and " variation 1", gave me almost identical results(...even in numbers),....bike OK,...still not perfect. Anyway, I am more interested with "variation 2" now, that started as the ...missing lines of Guzzi Ti-kit insruction kit, and gave me the best result so far. but I want to repeat it as many times as I can, checking that the steps lead always to the same result...a well-balanced bike and values that remain +- within limits every time you repeat it. Any comment welcome,...since everyone can see easier the mistakes of another,...than his own.

"snap back"...give me a better word or phrase and I'll edit the post. Think you got the idea..("check" , that butterfly from full open, closes , and value "already set" remains the same )

First of all I should make clear that english/Us/Uk/Ca/Au/....etc, is not my native language, I could express myself a lot better in Greek language,...but ,....then it would be all Greek to you.... I appreciate the fact that many people devoted so much time and thinking about tuning a V11 and the result was the forum method. I owe an apology for my early criticism ( ..months ago), because it was not constructive . Guzzi service and support is not strong in most places of the world,( with the exception of a few lucky ones who live next to Guzzi guru..s or responsible service shops)...maybe increaced production numbers will correct that. For myself, I would like to take my bike to a Guzzi service shop, pay, ...and have a well tuned bike....(don't have so much free time). Since that does not often happen, and I want to enjoy my V11,...forum is the best place to start looking for the ...missing instruction lines,.. and do the tuning myself. However, I don't want anybody to follow what I say, just to give ground for discussion and if you agree...OK your bike,..you are the tuner...same goes to me...my bike ....I am the tuner.

Guzzi manuals suggest that Axone should be powered by the vehicle's battery,...think it means that they have observed variations in numbers if you use different power sources, so a charger hooked up might not be a good idea, ...speaking for myself I don't tune anymore the bike if the battery is not 100% ok. I have done it in the past and results were not good.

Guzzi Ti-kit instructions introduce a step, that there was not seen before in other V11 workshop manuals& updates... balancing the cylinders with connection rod disconnected, but how and when???? Translation from Italian is really ...bad,...and some steps are not in the right order for example "Disconnect Vacuumeter"...and then "Tune, by bypass screws idle condition at 1100+-50rpm" How???...using your imagination??? My V11 was one more time the guinea pig, in order to look for the missing lines of the Ti-kit instructions. So now, this is how I read Ti-kit instructions underlined:exact phrases from forum method bold:words added by me italic: ti-kit instructions "Variation 2" 1/If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions: http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows: 1/Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam. 2/For bikes after 2003, with no light switch take off the seat and remove the two fuses (5w/15w) for the lights.Other bikes, just turn the lights off. 3/Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort. 4/Open by hand and let gently snap back the right butterfly one-two times, to make sure that value remains ok.(150mv+-) If you want keep it fully open by hand, and you see the WOT in volts. 5/Tune on right throttle body the throttle potentiometer till you reach 2.9+-0,1(465mv+-5mv) V11 MY 2002/2003 ++++ or 3,8+-0,1(550mv+-5mv) for V11MY 2001 Translation:Set tps value using the right idle throttle screw till you reach........ 6/Open by hand and let gently snap back the right butterfly one-two times, to make sure that value remains ok.(..."x.xx" mv+-) 6/Turn off the ignition key 7/back off left idle screw, so it doesn't touch the butterfly 7/Install fuses back, because one of them is lights plus tachometer...now you need it. 8/To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. 9/ turn on engine(engine temperature must reach minimum 50C) 10/Tune left cylinder equal to right one, with the tuning screw ( not the bypass one), with the connection stick disconnected. Translation:......with left idle throttle screw........ 11/Close both air bypass screws (clockwise). and check if cylinders remain balanced, if not correct by left idle throttle screw. 12/Connect the throttle connecting stick, then verify that out of idle condition(2000-3000rpm) vacuum in the two cylinder is equal, and in case tune the stick screw to equalize it Translation:..... check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM ,make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment. 13/Tune, by bypass screws idle condition at 1100+-50rpm Next steps are for people that have diagnostic software or an Axone, and CO analyzer(...have neither so no check on that...) 14/Tune, by Ecu trim, left cylinder CO at 4%value 15/Verify that right cylinder CO value is similar(+-0.2) to left one, otherwise tune it by right bypass screw Remarks This procedure gave me the best result in tuning the bike so far, and I plan to visit a Guzzi service, to do steps 14/15 ,and see if there is more improvement. Hicuup/ popping/baf/bam....are history ,and bike goes really good. From step (9) , to avoid overheating you don't have to do all steps at once. I used 2 minutes intervals on/off, depends if you have a fan or no ...etc After step (11), I corrected the lenght of the connection rod, so it would connect on right butterfly , without altering the balance I had already done with rod disconnected. Seemed logical to me, although I didn't check what happens if you connect it "as it is" One thing leads to another, so experimenting and applying on this procedure, gave me some ideas about Micha method...which to be true I didn't follow precisely the first time,...and I believe it is very close to this one but with the added knowledge and shortcuts of an experienced tuner.

Don't know much about a bike's electric system,(...just the basic), so I consider as an axiom the remark of raz that tps at idle is different than tps with with engine off/key on, and I see that most people here confirm it. Since I cannot explain in theory why this happens, I thought how it affects setting the tps when I tune my bike. Tps value at idle is a cumulative value, resulting from base tps(150mv+-), plus the value given by the left or right idle throttle screw, plus the alterations happening to this value by synchronizing throttle bodies with connecting rod, and bypass screws. Guzzi and logic says that best point to set tps is where less components are involved, that is key on/engine off ....let's you worry only about the state of your battery, provided that all electrical components are OK (ECU, relays,..etc). Right idle throttle screw is the best choice for setting the tps , because you get rid of the inaccuracy of connecting rod. Some numbers.... Cafe sport 2004 key on engine off everything disconnected Run 1 / base (0 angle) 152mv / right idle throttle body screw 0.472V Run2 / 152mv / 0.472V (instructions say 465+-5mv, I choose upper limit and added 2mv to compensate that base tps was 152mv(not 150mv) engine running/everything balanced tps idle / Run 1 / 0.483V / Run 2 0.515V I could end up with any idle tps number ( within certain limits) with cylinders balanced , although start values are always the same, check how the bike goes on the road and if I decide that this is the best number for my bike, then I have a shortcut to tune it without disconnecting anything. With voltmeter check tps idle, and if you see the magic... number ....all ok. What I mean is, that there is not exact tps idle for all v11, exact is only the initial (+- "value" mv) tps number (set by right idle throttle screw) that Guzzi gives for the V11 model changes.

http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?...mp;#entry145582

Read last week very carefully forum method about setting the tps and balancing the bike http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12204 Ian Johnston's page which is probably Micha's method, with personal remarks http://www.obairlann.net/reaper/motorcycle...zi/balance.html Guzzi manual V11 update 2003 plus other posts regarding the subject, http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13188 http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12056 http://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13385 plus....... http://www.guzzitech.com/EVTuneup-Jeff_B.html http://www.fuelinmoto.com.au/ ...........................etc Guzzi manual has many holes( ...and Ti kit instructions), in the way the steps are, and they take for granted that you are a mechanic , and you know how to adjust injection systems, so there are not details, just some numbers and basic steps,..many missing lines Mr .Bean's "Micha method" , is a rough guide for experienced people to fast tune a bike, that nobody has played with the injection system, and things are close to factory settings. Don't forget that from 2003++++ bikes were leaving the Guzzi factory in a good state of tuning. That's why mechanics don't like people, who alter everything, and then go for.... adjustments to a service-shop. "Micha method" described by Ian Johnston, is a more analytical method for" how to balance throtlle bodies", but not much info about setting the tps, just a remark about 500mv at idle ...very good part are the remarks about right -hand idle screw/air bypass screws.I'll come to that later... Forum method is the most analytical for a beginner (like me) in setting tps and balancing throtlle bodies, but has some holes among the steps and gets a little confusing...from one step to another, but it's a good base to start with, although it does not take in account that after 2003 there were V11Euro 3 versions with cat/lambda( or not ...) , where tps numbers are different. So I tried forum method, (...don't know how many times!!!!!), but taking into account info, numbers, hints, from all other sources, so the knowledge is not mine,....only the thinking and reasoning. First hole,...in forum method comes at fourth paragraph, where it says that you synchronize throttle bodies at idle, using the syncronization rod adjustment. I could buy that, but not when two paragraphs below, with the same rod you adjust part open throttle(2000-3000rpm). So where is idle balance??? way off...only thing that saves balance at idle, is that between these two steps,there is another step to balance again idle range using the bypass screws. For experiment, balance idle with connecting rod,omit idle balance with bypass screws, then balance part throttle with connecting rod, and check balance at idle,,,you can do it for the rest of your life and it would not be OK. So balancing at idle using the connecting rod is not needed...unless it makes you feel happy... Hole number two In paragraph about setting the tps, tps value is set with engine running. There is always difference in readings, between engine off/switch on/key on and engine running. Forum method says 0.521+-.005, I don't doubt the number, but it should be clear that this is a cumulative value resulting from the previous steps and it is affected.. again...by the ...next steps(of the method). You can set the tps at idle, as long as you consciously know that Guzzi given tps numbers about V11 models, are meant with switch on/key on/engine off, so if you set tps at idle(where value gets higher), the same value is lower than needed to tune the bike. Setting tps with "switch on/key on/engine off" is the cause, idle tps is the result...so as long as you know what you are doing, setting tps at idle with everything connected is a kind of shortcut if you want to check and balance a bike fast, that is already at least once properly tuned, not recommended for a bike that the owner has played a lot with,....and not sure about 0 angle tps etc. For experiment, with everything connected, engine running , turn screw of connecting rod, open close the bypasses, and check at the voltmeter how the tps value changes... So this is how I read Forum method "Variation 1" bold:words added by me normal:exact phrases from forum's method, although some changes in order of steps. IDLE TPS/THROTTLE BALANCING TUNING For the following V11 Moto Guzzi motorcycles, made from 1999-2006 V11 Sport, Le Mans, Rosso Mandello, Scura, Tenni, Cafe Sport, Rosso Corsa, Nero Corsa, Naked Ballabio, and Coppa Italia. If you suspect the valves need adjusting, do that first. Here is a link to some good instructions: http://www.geocities.com/motoguzzi1064/Guz...alvesTorque.htm Then make sure the TPS is calibrated to 150 mv at fully closed as follows: Disconnect the synchronization rod at the ball joint on the right side (the side with the TPS sensor), back off the right throttle idle screw using a 2.5mm hex key, and back off the "choke" cam (make sure the choke cable permits full retraction of the cam (it didn't on my bike). For bikes after 2003, with no light switch take off the seat and remove the two fuses (5w/15w) for the lights.Other bikes, just turn the lights off. Turn on the ignition key, but do not start the bike. Measure the voltage difference between the two outer wires of the TPS. If the voltage is not 150 mV ±5 mV, then loosen the TPS clamp screws and gently rotate it as required. Be careful not to force it against the TPS’s internal stop in the direction of reducing the voltage, which could damage it. Plus or minus 5 mV can be obtained with a little effort. Open by hand and let gently snap back the right butterfly one-two times, to make sure that value remains ok.(150mv+-) If you want keep it fully open by hand, and you see the WOT in volts. Now, reconnect the synchronization rod, but keep the right throttle idle screw backed off to put the connecting rod in tension, removing any backlash and adjust the left idle screw for a TPS reading of .521 volts. + - .005 (corresponding to 3.5 degrees physical opening, as read by the optional diagnostic software). This accuracy can be obtained with a little effort. (Some riders have been known to also subsequently physically readjust the TPS (not the idle screw) to lean or richen the entire throttle range. However, loosening its screws and offsetting the TPS to a higher voltage, e.g. .539, will fool the ECU into adding more fuel, but it will also fool the ignition timing table. See also the note at the bottom under “Options”) Turn off the ignition key Install fuses back, because one of them is lights plus tachometer...now you need it. To do the next step, you will need to connect a vacuum manometer (e.g. mercury stick) to each of the two ports on the intake fittings next to the cylinder head. Close both air bypass screws (clockwise),start the engine, and check balance at 2000 - 3000 RPM ,make any fine correction needed using the synchronization rod adjustment. Next open both air bypass screws to obtain the idle RPM at 1100 to 1200 while maintaining balance. ( ...1 turn seems to do the trick, if you like shortcuts) Air bypass screws should be open 1/2 turn or more. If not, back off the idle screw to reduce the TPS voltage reading in steps of 15 mv and open the air bypass screws to compensate until they are opened 1/2 turn or more. Disconnect the voltmeter and manometers. Replace the hose connecting the two intakes. etc............................................................................. ................................................................... Remarks I tried forum method exactly as is written, and the bike worked almost ok with sporadic hiccup at 2000-3000rpm (almost steady throttle), or some times at idle when it was hotter.I believe hiccup, mostly results from imbalance of throttle bodies at low range, because after 3000rpm connecting rod has no lash , and the engine revs balanced if everything is ok. I tried also, the "variation 1" method, described above, which is a little faster, and you avoid to overheat the bike, since tps is set with engine off, using the same tps values, got rid of idle hiccup , but not really happy about low range. Don't misunderstand me , bike goes ok and revs hard...but not perfect when you open /close throttle from idle-3000rpm. So, the suspect is.... 1/the lash of the connecting rod.Setting tps"switch on/key on/engine off"/or "engine running "with left screw although convenient, is not accurate, just touch the rod and the value changes, open /close the throttle grip and value changes,... 2/no balance of throttle bodies at idle, with connecting rod disconnected,...as was the case for the old carburetor Guzzi with no connecting rod. I'll come to that in detail, in another post about the missing lines of Guzzi Ti-kit instructions......

This week I have done a lot of progress, in trying various methods (forum method included), for tps tuning and throtllle balancing. Every morning I drive to work with a different setting and look how it behaves on the road. Bought new polymeter , and first thing I did was to check again base (0 angle) tps, (with everything disconnected/switch on / key on/ engine off) ...it was way off... 220 mv,...and 533mv was the value given by the left idle screw(rod connected). Wonder how a good throttle balance gave me satisfactory results, (not perfect but ok) Imagine a Guzzi can work with almost anything, if it is balanced.

Never promise to a V11...the beauty ..becomes .... the beast

3.5% CO is my dream...but how can you do it, when the lambda always interferes ...the normal value is between 0.75%-1.2% When you increase pulse width using Axone, for a few moments CO goes up and then back ...to what makes the lambda... happy!!!! Wish my spark plugs were a little blacker...

I don't care much about numbers now, just want to make it run right... I read my first post and I think this line is wrong "Higher tps settings need smaller bypass screw opening" I 'll try to figure that out, because the relation between adjustments is more important than the absolute numbers, ...and almost every Guzzi reacts a little different when you adjust it.

Tried Micha method on myV11 04 Cat/lambda Cafe sport...and the results were really good.Bike is running strong, no hiccups, smooth at idle...OK (...although I still have to try it in city traffic, where engine temp rises and one uses a lot the 1000-3500 range...) Step one - Set your valves to world settings Done..... Step two - Set your bleed screws to open 1 full turn I did it but show that 1/2 turn, gave better results for my bike (Last time I tuned the bike, I kept the 150mv base position and set the tps at 3.7-3.8), so I suspect that 03+bikes with 15MIaw "alpha-N system" need 2.7-2.9 (..as the ti ecu instructions say). Higher tps settings need smaller bypass screw opening. Next time I'll set tps to 2.9 with a full turn open the bypass screws,and see what happens Step three - Synch throttle bodies at just off idle (around 1800 rpm) Done...(twinmax)Also checked it at 3000rpm and it was OK at max sensitivity. Step four - Set idle to 1100 using left idle screw adjuster only Done, alhtough the idle was already 99%ok, just touched the screw Step five - Set TPS to 3.6 degrees Test drove the bike, and since everything was OK, didn't check or correct the tps Step six - Ensure idle trim is set to zero I don't know if cat bikes have the screw for idle trim(..believe you can alter idle trim only with axone, and a gas analyzer connected...) My voltometer has gone to ...to hell , so as soon I replace it I will give fresh numbers about base tps, idle tps etc.

30%... and keep walking!!!

Ok then,... go ahead!!!!

Please,....not again.....

I see that the flooooo...ders of this forum, never respond unless they have something to sell, ...or to show ---oooofffff Thank you

I agree, so I try to imagine what is missing between the ...lines, and the right order. 1/Let's suppose that the line "Close completely bypass screws" in second paragraph is the first one, so I close bypasses and then set the Tps Value 2.9 with the right body screw(not convenient , but can be done...), and everything disconnected (fast idle, rod) and left hand body screw retracted , not touching the left butterfly 2/Then equalize left cylinder with right (vacuum produced), with left body screw.Problem here is if the bypass screws are completely closed you have a very rough and low idle, and it's not easy to synchronize cylinders. You have to be fast, ...and the bike is suffering...and I am not that fast!!!! 3/ "tune by bypass screws idle condition at 1100+/-50rpm" should come before the line "Disconnect vacuumeter", otherwise how can you do it??? Does it make more sense? Also, there is a problem in first paragraph, line " tune (on right throttle body) the throttle potentiometer ...(What is that ,the butterfly screw or the whole tps????) till you reach 2.9", .....but in second paragraph " tune left cylinder vacuum with ........tuning screw",...here it is clear... is tuning screw and throttle potentiometer same thing in other words???

Let's start...Ti kit instructions attached... Some remarks.... 1/Set Tps right throttle body2.9+/-0.1(465mv +/-5mv)...OK that's easy ...but next comes "tune left cylinder vacuum equal to right one, with the tuning screw (not the bypass one), with the connection stick disconnected"....Have not seen that in other Guzzi v11 manuals /updates etc 2/Am I right to suppose that after this balance the resulting Tps value with the stick connected would not be 2.9. but something more??? 3/According to forums tps instructions one adjusts the tps value from left throttle body screw, ( more convenient), but if one sets it in 2.9,(that's what I did...) is way lower than the actual tps value reached when you set at 2.9 right body, synchronize bodies disconnected, ( so left body has also some value ...it's not zero), and then connect the stick. 4/Last part of instructions, about adjusting the CO level is not valid for bikes with lambda sensor, even if you have an Axone. Lambda is a spy in the crossover ....so, CO stays always between 0.75-1.2 whatever you do. Any ideas/remarks...welcome

Can't keep front wheel on the ground????? He needs a Roper plate

The secret book I keep hidden in the basement.Once in a while I bring some pages, out in the light. If you want more pages .....let me know.

Luigi told me to give you his regards and these two pages from the WM. Think in older posts about the subject, I've read that there are better quality hose connectors by BMW...

Agree, the use I do is out of specs... and heavy load behind the rear axle, is not good, ...so if you ride alone needs caution, ....(I never use it alone)...but things get a lot better when there is weight, on the rear axle ( second person) and I can always adjust the ohlins to compensate for the weight, usually 3 clicks + compression, 2 clicks+ rebound My 50lt topcase fully loaded comes close to 20-30 kg, that's why I changed the screws with better quality, longer, added a locknut and I am in the habit to always check them for bending every time I use it. Guzzi rack is not designed for heavy load, and I take the risk to damage it,...let's see how much abuse it can stand. Hi pipes .....have a cost

For weekend trips two up I use The Guzzi rack with a 50lt topcase plus the tankbag, so Ti pipes are no problem. Only thing I have done is to find stronger and longer screws, than the original for the rack, because I carry more weight than recommended.Bike is stable, and ...no problems so far

Valve clearances ok, think tps everything disconnected is Ok 150mv...but I took the reading using a ducati diagnostic tool which connects straight to the cable of tps...next time I'll use the traditional way using a volt meter, to check if there are differences, between the readings...Bypass screws are open more than 1 turn, closer to 2 turns...I'll have to look more to it...you gave me some ideas...but I suspect that the lambda sensor makes fun to me...closed loop is no good when you want to alter things Thanks