Kiwi_Roy

Have you eliminated the hot wire you found? Sidestand switches are a pain, just to be sure jumper it out temporary Poke a wire in 30 and 87 of the relay socket. I hate to harp on but your Go Winkie light would have told you that

Lets get our feet wet. With this test we are trying to establish the battery is connected and able to supply enough power to crank, we don't need the key or the Kill Switch to be On Test a) Put a spade lug on about 3 feet of #16 or #18 wire Slip it on the starter solenoid trigger terminal Make sure the bike is in neutral Hold in the clutch to be sure Flash the other end of the wire onto battery positive What happens? If it works skip to Test c) Test b ) If it doesn't turn over Connect your meter or a 12V lamp to chassis with the other wire on 12 Volts positive The meter must read 12V or the light must go, agreed? Flash the end of your trigger wire to battery positive What happened that time? Test c) If it does turn over at Test a) Remove the Start Relay Flash the trigger wire to socket 30 of the Start Relay, this will test the relay is getting enough current to engage the starter. What Happened? Test d) If it passed Test c) then we will test the complete Start circuit high current wiring Remove the temporary trigger wire Put the original trigger wire back on the solenoid trigger terminal Now with a short length of wire touch the start relay socket from 87 to 30 If it doesn't crank you may have to turn the key On Get back When you say the starter clicks be a bit more specific, is it the soft click of the relay or loud click/clunk of the solenoid.

A weird thing with the brake lights, they are fed from the headlight relay so make sure the Headlights on when you are troubleshooting i.e. the ignition must be On The Tail light is on in Park or Run position, Fuse 6 Live

Perhaps about a Q tip size blob, yes it lubricates the contacts to stop them wearing away Sent from my shoe phone!

I'm not sure you can get it together wrong because of the slot in the shaft, I never take note when I pull one apart but you can also figure it out from the schematic. http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1999_V11_sport.gif In Park position fuse 6 is alive and the tail light is On 3 wires I K & L are connected The On position is when the relays should pick up, at that point all 4 wires I J K & L will be connected together and the tail light will be On In the Lock and Off position only I & K are joined through the jumper at the back of the switch. I hope you did the Vaseline trick or it will quickly wear out. Please do the test on the start relay contact 30, I think it should be alive with the key Off same as my 2001

Hot terminals, now we are getting somewhere. The only Red/Black wire I know is from the 87 contact of the headlight relay to the headlight Hi/Lo switch but that's relay No 2 it shouldn't cause stalling but would upset the battery charging. Wait a minute though if the battery Voltage goes too high the ECU will shut down but when the revs drop it picks up again Chuck is correct the fuel pump wire is the same colour R-N in my manual, I never noticed that before. Figure out which relay by which fuse is running to the 30 contact of that same relay, (the fuses are labeled) If it did happen to be the injection relay in a different position it would certainly explain the stalling Ignition coils, Injectors and fuel pump, like turning the key off. Neither the Owners or the Workshop Manuals mention the relays, I guess they never give any trouble LOL perhaps try to arrange them in the order shown below, I think that's pretty standard. Note: this drawing only applies to the early VIIs like my 01 I do not show any wire colours. This might help you tighten the connectors

We needed to measure the Voltages while you were trying to start Test 3 should have gone from ZERO to 10 Volts or more when you pressed start, I think you would have seen something much lower especially if it just went click. You could try that again, i expect it will start now that you have cleaned the switch because you now have much more current available. I thought your 2002 would have the earlier wiring, If you pull out the start relay and measure for Voltage to chassis at the 30 socket Early VIIs had 12 Volts on 30 with the key Off Later VIIs only have 12 Volts on 30 with the ignition On Knowing which you have makes a big difference to me. Relay Socket ---- 30 (normally live early models) ---- 97 | | | 85, 87a, 86 BTW you can get these bikes to crank over by hot wiring from 30 to 97 in the case of the early ones or battery+ to 97 on any model, you will get a bit of a spark 40+ Amps after all.

If the tail light won't go it's either the fuse or more likely a wire broken off the ignition switch. The switch is held on by 2 Phillips screws from under, take the opportunity to service it and when you put it back together fasten the wires to the switch so they don't flex at the solder joint. Update Check for Voltage at fuse 6 with the key On, if not the wire is likely broken As Docc mentioned the same wire feeds the Park light in the bucket.

For goodness sake wire a small light to the petcock fuse and chassis tape it to the bars, that will eliminate 50% of the possible faults, that's all I am going to say.

No the ground at the regulator is to fix charging. Slow cranking is a symptom of loose main ground which causes the ground current to divert to the regulator ground causing it to get red hot as the bike cranks over slowly as shown in first photo I posted The speed of a motor is proportional to the current through the armature, normally a VII passes 150 - 170 Amps imagine how much Voltage an extra 1/4 Ohm of resistance drops at that current LOL

A fly and ride is priceless Don't like hotels then take a tent. Welcome to the forum. Roy

Here's a challenge Lets see who can come up with the best method of getting the last drop of fuel out of the VII tank A/ with external pump B/ with internal pump (or is that not an issue) Photos or it didn't happen. In the best Guzzi tradition it has to be cheap.

The Starter turning the engine slowly worries me, I have seen that before when the main ground was loose, the starter current finds an alternate path back to the battery via the small black wire from the regulator case to negative post. The starter turns at less than half speed and pretty soon the bike starts letting out the magic smoke like this one has. (sent to me by an owner complaining of slow cranking and smoke) Make sure the main ground connects to a gearbox bolt down near the seat release like this c/w Vaseline of course. Not under the seat release bracket like this (my bike), it was loose and slow cranking as I described Loose (disconnected) main ground at the battery Lead Oxide is formed on battery terminals, this is an insulator that can completely disconnect the lug from terminal even though it's mechanically tight, I have seen it disable a bike in as little as 2 weeks. The oxide creeps into the connection between post and lug until all that's left is a tiny area of contact which usually fuses at cranking, I'm sure you've all experienced this in an auto in winter time. You may have noticed when measuring battery voltage, just touching the meter leads on the post doesn't make connection, you have to jab the leads through the layer of oxide. Scrape the lead terminals then smear them with Vaseline to keep the oxygen away and they will maintain good contact for years. A loose ground could also explain the erratic running, these bikes won't keep running without a battery connected. Yes, clean the ignition switch, that's another spot the battery can be disconnected replace the old grease with fresh Vaseline. (no other) I hate to say this but if you had a Go Winkie light it would be flashing like crazy

Gstallons bought up a good point if the battery is backwards and it's a Valeo starter it won't turn because the clutch will slip. I helped an owner who had a weird universal battery with posts on each corner and a Bosch starter (these always go the same way), he had the battery I backwards and it cranked fine but of course no ignition. It's quite easy to blow the safety diode in the P8 ECU I have replaced a couple of those. Sent from my shoe phone!

So you go like hell then coast when it splutters, that makes sense #### Sent from my shoe phone!

Plexiform, Almost every modern Guzzi has starting problems not just the VIIs, Brevas, Norge, Grisos, EVs Jackals and many more usually it's because of the stupid wiring (starter current fed through the ignition switch), the grease in the switch gets hard with age and holds the contacts apart so the current drops until there's not enough to pull the solenoid in but too much for the fuse. All you hear is the slight click of the relay then a short while later the fuse blows. Usually it's just a simple matter of snipping the wire off the relay terminal 30 and replacing it with a direct feed from the battery. It's not always the wiring, sometimes the magnets come unglued inside the starter itself and the end up jamming up the works Gstallons is pointing out how to test the starter independent of the wiring. If you haven't done it already I urge you to pull the ignition switch apart and clean out the old grease, it's about a 15 minute job. If you look up at the switch from under you will see two phillips screws, they hold the switch to the lock Prize the back off Tilt out the white plate Wipe the grease off Re-grease with Petroleum Jelly aka Vaseline from the baby section of the drug store (use no substitute) When you put it back together, try to fasten the 4 wires to the back of the switch so that they don't bend where the wires solder to the back plate. That was quite a good tutorial, notice on the diagram he intros at about 3 minutes how the feed to the relay contact went from the battery, to a fuse then straight to the relay contact and on to the Trigger Wire, not through the ignition switch as your Guzzi does. The wire to the relay coil goes through the switch that's fine, it only draws about 1/10th of an Amp, the relay contacts however pass 40+ Amps through the trigger wire to pull the solenoid in. You cannot measure that current with a multimeter because it is too fast, if it works properly it drops to 10 Amps after about 0.1 of a second. He told you to clean the battery terminals however he didn't mention you must apply Vaseline to the clean terminals, this is essential to prevent lead oxide forming between the post and the lug. I keep rabbiting on about Vaseline and battery terminals because thats what I learned over 50 years ago

Bear in mind when you press start with the solenoid still connected you are interested in the Voltage across the coil but this is a little tricky, if the solenoid does pull in you will immediately get a much higher Voltage as the current drops to 1/4 what it was a split second earlier. If you wire in a start button it needs to be one capable of carrying 45 Amps, a small radio shack one might weld itself closed.

I have mixed feelings, on one hand adding an extra relay will improve starting on the other by adding more complication. I'm pretty much decided that the factory don't know how the starter solenoids work for the following reasons. They never draw the solenoid coil on their schematics as it is with 2 coils, not one They put a 15 Amp fuse on a circuit that has an inrush current of 45 Amps The 45 Amps will never flow through all the connectors the small wires and wiping contact of the ignition switch I think it's pretty much accepted that the starting will improve if you open up the ignition switch and replace the old grease with fresh Vaseline. The strength of a magnetic solenoid is the product of the amps x number of turns. On most Guzzis including very modern ones the current is throttled due to the wiring through the ignition switch. Early VIIs 2001, 2002 had the start relay powered direct from the battery through a fuse not through the switch and never had a problem from Startus Interuptus.

The Camshaft Phase sensor or the TDC sensor if you have two. Without pulses from the sensors the ECU doesn't know when to fire or should it turn the pump on. Actually your bike is a little different than the later bikes, here you see the sensor I'm talking about item 59 the Camshaft phase sensor http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/1996_Sport_1100i.gif You can check the sensor from the ECU socket 11 & 29 if you unplug the ECU and remove the back off the plug it should read about 680 Ohms according to the book. This is a great manual for the early fuel injection systems and it's even valuable for the later 2000-2004 bikes http://www.dpguzzi.com/efiman.pdf The sensors are 7 & 8 on page 2 The TDC sensors are known to collect iron filings from the flywheel, check it's clean. Many owners have removed the camshaft sensor to fix an oil leak then found the bikes wont fire because the sensor is too far away, it needs to be 0.6 to 1.2 mm according to the manual, measure that by placing a blob of wax or grease on the end, bolt it up then turn over so the engine shaves it down. There are many points in the wiring where you might be losing power, see how vital it is to get power to the red/black wire, if it were my bike the first thing I would do is add a 12V LED to this wire somewhere, perhaps under the seat. You will see it turn on for a few seconds with the key and hear the pump run then stop, as soon as the bike cranks over the light and pump should run again. Something else while I think of it from the schematic it looks as though your bike has those old European pointy fuses clean those up and make sure they have good tension holding the fuse, some owners stretch an O ring around the clips to hold them tight, I like to polish them up by rubbing the points on some rough cloth (my jeans) and smear them with Vaseline If you accidentally put the battery in backwards it will seem to crank over normally but there's a diode inside the ECU that prevents the ECU relay from pulling in. I have replaced a couple of those but your pump seems to prime so the Safety diode must be ok. Just to re-iterate you won't be able to measure power at the coils or pump unless the motor is actually turning over and the ECU sees pulses from the magnetic sensor/s

If I remember correctly, when you pull on the lever the button pops out and the normally closed contact closes. Let the lever go and it pushes the button against it's spring to open the Normally Closed contact. The rear switch is hydraulically actuated, a normally Open switch that is closed when you apply hydraulic pressure. Us sparky types normally refer to the state of a contact when it's at rest with no mechanical input, manuals don't follow any sort of standard, take whatever they show with a grain of salt.

Yes I did but I'm unable to copy/ paste from this computer If anyone's interested send me a PM and I'll send you the makings Sent from my shoe phone!

This is a very simple sketch of the charging system but it will serve to point out a few details. The alternator windings are connected across the two yellow wires. power flows from the wire that happens to be positive (lets say the left side at the moment) through the left side diode out the red wire and through the 30 Amp fuse to the battery. From the battery negative the current returns through the chassis to the regulator case, to the right side Silicon Controlled Rectifier and out the other yellow wire back to the alternator. I should point out that the current can only pass through the SCR if it is turned on by the regulator circuit (battery Voltage is less than 14.6) A split second later the current reverses direction and flows out the right diode, through the battery and back to the alternator through the left SCR At 5,000 revs per minute it's changing direction 1,166 times per second, it's quite busy. The most important part of the regulator is the regulator circuit, it measures the battery Voltage and decides if it needs to turn on the SCRs and charge the battery, It uses the 12 Volts at the black wire (Voltage Reference) to fire the SCRs if the battery Voltage is a bit low, This wire is tapped into the Red/Black headlight circuit downstream of the headlight relay half way along the tank on the right hand side. You will find a double pin plug with 1 black 1 white wire, just ease the connector apart a little and measure the Voltage on the black. I have found several regulators where one internal diode has become disconnected, the sketch shows testing the diodes using a multimeter with diode test feature. If you dont have a diode tester a battery and lamp (not an LED) will do, the lamp should glow at just over half intensity and not at all if you reverse the polarity. Another separate part of the regulator is the charge light, it's pretty useless really, if there's no power on the black wire, the bikes not charging and the light doesn't work. If the headlights not working the first you will know is when the motor conks out. m It's very important to have a good ground on the regulator so the current can get back from chassis to the alternator. the factory provided a wire but it has too much resistance because it goes all the way back to the battery, a short No 12 from the regulator case to a timing cover bolt is much better. Check the 30 Amp fuse and also the connectors in the yellow wires for any sign of discolouration, there should be none. BTW the resistance between the yellows is very low(1 Ohm or less) and you should be able to measure 50 to 90 Volts AC between them while the bike is running. I have the complete circuit for those that like to study electronic diagrams.

Power the gauges from the park light, that's not switched with the start relay so it doesn't re-boot every time you press start. Being so cheap I'm surprised more owners don't make their own speed sensors, all you need is a spinning magnet and a 10c reed switch. and a few hand tools The magnet spins in the existing speedo cable drive so any precision machining is taken care of. The little glass switches break very easy if you're not careful but once you get one done and embedded in silicon or epoxy they will last forever. Almost any small magnet will do to pulse the switch. A runners GPS is perfect for calibrating the speedo

Perhaps the tube below the tank is pinched? Sent from my shoe phone!

And only if the lamp matches the sensor, I find it easiest to keep the original fuel light and just put the LED in parallel