Kiwi_Roy

Gio's probably right, If you remove the air box and install pods then you have to find a home for the sensor. I reasoned that since the sensor is no longer in an air flow it could possibly read much hotter under the tank so I extended the wires and re-located mine to the front of the tank out of the sun. If I ever put the air box back I will leave it where it is, the temperature should be the same. As Gstallons says, put it back so it can measure the intake air.

Ahh Rachet, I miss his special style of English

Just take a large worm drive hose clamp and clamp it around the filter with the screw part near one of the adjacent pillars, ther's no way that sucker can ever work loose. You have to remove the sump to do this but it lets you clean out the grunge at the same time.

Docc, I can't see anything different apart from the terminal strips you added, that's neat. Do you still have a Ducati Energia regulator or something else I can't figure out how your Voltage gets to be so high unless your regulator is trimed for a higher setpoint. Next time you get a chance would you mind measuring the voltage at the black regulator wire to chassis with the motor running. Thanks Roy

Yours seems fine, there must be something in your wiring or regulator that's different, i wouldn't worry about it. Perhaps you could scan your wiring diagram and also indicate how your after market relays are connected. Thanks Roy

Your wiring is pretty much the same as mine, I see about 50 mV with the relays 600 - 700 without. I predict your battery is only charging up to 13.95V or thereabouts but I may be wrong. It would be interesting to know what the peak battery voltage you see and what it settles out at say half hour after riding. No reason for a diode really except it has a fixed voltage drop of 600mV (no calculation required). Yes a resistor will work also to change the setpoint but the trick is to figure out the value because inside the regulator it splits in two, I'm not sure if the split is constant or changes with revs. You could try a wirewound rheostat of 50 Ohms Do you think your charging is adequate? If so don't worry about it

With headlight relays added the regulator sense wire is very close to actual battery voltage so it will charge to 13.8 Volts, same as if you wired it to the ignition switch. Tom added a diode in series with his reference wire this makes the regulator think the battery is less by 0.6 Volts so it cranks the battery Voltage up to 14.4 as it would be with original wiring. I'm not a fan for running anything important directly through the ignition switch, as the bike ages the switch builds up resistance which might cause the regulator to go full on and cook something. Note, all bikes use relays to power the ECU coils injectors etc. As I said previously, before adding anything ground the regulator properly, bad grounding also causes low charging.

I had some time today so I did some testing on my V11 Sport The wiring on this bike is in good condition. I can easily disconnect the added headlight relays and it reverts back to the original headlight wiring. To test the theory that there is voltage drop between the battery and the regulator reference wire I connected my multimeter from battery Positive to the connector where the regulator Black wire plugs in. Here is the circuit for the relays showing the different wiring Charging Circuit Reference.pdf As I note, not all bikes have the same reference wiring, I think mine is unusual in that the headlight also goes directly through the N/C Start Relay contact, others use this contact to power the headlight relay coil. Coil wiring for the after market headlight relay/s will be different than shown, I just want to show the main current wiring. Test 1 with headlight powered through original wiring At first when I turned it on I saw up to 1 Volt drop, it seemed to drift around a bit. I figured there must be a bad contact somewhere. After wiggling the relays and fuses around the voltage drop is 650 mV or 720 mV depending on which headlight beam is selected. This mV is added to the 13.8 regulator setpoint so the battery will charge to 14.45 or 14.52 Volts depending on headlight. Test 2 with headlight powered through added headlight relays Heres the crunch, when I power the headlight through the relays, because now most of the current is bypassed the voltage drop lowers to around 50 mV, so now the battery will only charge to 13.85 Volts 0.6 Volts lower. This is the problem that prompted Tom into asking about a higher output alternator. In Conclusion Headlight relays might improve your lighting but your charging has suffered, you need to correct for the feedback you have lost. If you add driving lights they should be powered from a different circuit or they will add to the Voltage drop and likely cause overcharging. Any additional resistance i.e. dirty relay base may cause the regulator to think the battery is flat resulting in overcharging and possible regulator failure. Hope this has given you something to think about I would be very interested to learn what Voltage drop other riders measure from Battery + to the reference at the regulator (female connector where the Black wire plugs in) Do this test with the motor OFF but lights ON I would also like to know if you have after market headlight relays. Which model and year your bike is? If your after market headlight relays are wired differently perhaps you could send a sketch. Thanks Roy

You've got the idea The current pulses are as high as 30 Amps but then there are times when the current is zero like I show on the RH of drawing the battery absorbs the high current pulses and presents nice smooth voltage to the bike if you were to measure the average current to and from the battery they would be similar. In this it's similar to all the other permanent magnet alternators some short out excess ours interupts excess. The wound rotor type as most cars and earlier Guzzis have is different, there they make the magnets stronger or weaker to regulate the current, they don't need to short or interupt the flow. The battery doesn't realy see excess Voltage 14.4 is fine as per the article you posted, Luigi set the regulator low (13.8) to allow for the voltage drop. However if you have any abnormally high resistance in the reference circuit for example a loose headlight relay base the regulator will never turn off, something has to give hopefully the 30 amp fuse will blow. I suspect this is the cause of melted diodes in the ones I have dissasembled. Any time you see the dash lights flickering or perhaps the tach going crazy check it out, they share the same source as the reference.

That's quite a good article but doesn't really apply to a Guzzi. Our permanent magnet alternators are single phase and don't get shorted out like that. The regulator looks at it's voltage reference (the black wire to case) if it's less than 13.8 it turns the SCRs ON, if it's above 13.8 it turns the SCRs OFF Here's a diagram I drew of it, note the waveform on the RH side, this is what I observed with my scope. Regulator Schematic - With Notes.pdf It's interesting the article gives 14.4 Volts for the regulator setpoint. The Ducati Energias I have tested have a setpoint of 13.8 Volts but it doesn't include the additional voltage drop in the standard wiring. Tom now has a setpoint of 13.8 + 0.6 (diode) = 14.4 Volts Roy

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2008_V7_Classic.gif The later regulators (with the diode symbol) like on the V7 Classic are wired directly to the battery, they also include proper ground wires thus eliminating the bad connection there. The V11 sport (mine anyway) had the regulator screwed to the horn bracket with a couple of sheet metal type clip fasteners. The horn bracket is bolted to the frame with no sign of attention to grounding like bare metal to metal. The only sign of a ground is a tiny black wire, about 20 gauge under one of the regulator fasteners. I suspect when the bike is new the Aluminium to steel contact is sufficient but as the bike ages and corrosion takes place the direct contact to chassis is lost and it has to rely more on the tiny black wire. As a boater I think you will agree Aluminium to steel in a wet sometimes salty environment doesn't make for a good connection. I drilled one of the regulator fins and ran a short #12 to a timing cover bolt. All of the charging current which peaks at well over 30 Amps has to pass back through the ground to regulator in order to complete the circuit to alternator. I pulled my loom apart looking for the reference, it's taken off a Red/Black wire that runs from headlight relay to the headlight bucket. Midway under the tank is a soldered joint inside the loom. The diode fix Tom did is one way to boost the Voltage a little, there are other ways. The regulator has a trim resistor that's quite easily accessed but requires digging out some of the epoxy. Instead of a diode a variable resistor in series with the reference would give full control. The most important improvement to make before anything else is proper grounding, followed by checking the regulator diodes.

Docc Yes, as wired with the headlight drawing amps through the headlight relay the Voltage drop between battery and regulator added to 13.8, the regulator setpoint ensures that the battery gets charged to over 14 Volts However once you bypass the headlight current around the headlight relay you now get no Voltage drop so the regulator charges to 13.8 the point where the regulator cuts off. My guess is Guzzi have the regulators made allowing for the voltage drop, then again they do try and put 45+ amps through the ignition switch powered by a 15 Amp fuse to pull in the starter and they don't provide proper grounding for the Ducati regulator so perhaps they are lacking a little in electrical understanding. When I get a bit more time I will take some careful measurements to back this up. That's my Roy

Tom, I appreciate you had the confidence to try something untested. I'm glad it worked out for you. With some back and forth Tom & I figured out that with standard wiring the regulator sees the battery Voltage minus the Voltage drop in the headlight circuit. With headlight relays added this Voltage drop is lost because the headlight current no longer flows that way. The regulator is set to 13.8 so the battery wasn't getting fully charged. What Tom did is add a forward biased diode in the black reference wire, this fooled the regulator into thinking the battery was half a Volt lower so it boosted the regulator output by 1/2 Volt to compensate. A word of caution, don't just add a diode as Tom did without first of all trying the other causes of low voltage e.g. bad grounding Roy

Yes, increasing the voltage by 1% makes about a 4% increase in light output. Eliminating the tiny wires that go to and from the High/Low switch make a significant difference. I found this formula somewhere in an old textbook Brightness ~ V ^ (4.3) Here's a simple circuit using just one relay. The headlight on my bike also goes through the start relay, some just go through the headlight relay. For a relay use the same type that is installed in the bike, you don't need a base just two different size spade connector. I also ran a new ground from the lamp socket back to the chassis under the tank. Headlight Relay.pdf Energize the relay to select the other beam. I have another circuit inspired by Raz, this has a relay in each beam with diodes to back up the new fuse, if it blows the new fuse the original fuse will power lamp through the diode. Headlight Relays.pdf Have fun Roy PS, if you find after adding relay/s that the battery doesn't seem to fully charge any more I can explain that.

We will forgive you if you post pictures Cheers Roy

When I tested my theory that a bad contact/connection would cause the fuse to blow it did so in less than half a second however it all depends on how direct the wiring between battery and solenoid coils is i.e. how much current the coils will draw. If the solenoid is energised and is able to close the main contact this immediatly removes the heavy coil from the mix and reduces the solenoid current from 40 - 50 Amp range to less than 10, at this stage the fuse shouldn't blow. If the wiring resistance between battery and solenoid is too high it may not have sufficient power to pull in and make the main contact in which case the high current will continue (perhaps 20 - 30 Amps - my guess) As I said if there is some mechanical reason that the solenoid is unable to pull in and close the main contact e.g. teeth that won't mesh the fuse will blow. I doubt the solenoid coils would burn out. I haven't had my Valeo solenoid apart but the Bosch ones come apart quite easily, just a matter of unsoldering the wires, a solder sucker or solder wick and a good hot iron or solder gun. If you were to put your multimeter on the coil terminal to chassis and measure the Volts at start it may shed some light, my gut feeling it should be at least 10V. You may be able to get a starter solenoid from an auto wrecker, i'm sure it's not exclusive to Guzzi Roy

My first guess is the solenoid contacts are bad or you have a bad connection in the cable from Battery+ to solenoid. It could also be the solenoid is not able to engage the starter gear for some mechanical reason holding the contacts apart. Of course it's a little difficult to diagnose a problem from afar. How many seconds did it take to blow the fuse? Please remove and clean both the main battery terminals to at least remove that possibility.

Yes, you can power it up from a new fuse or re-wire fuse 3 from a hot. Here's a mod for a 2000 Jackal Start Circuit Mods.pdf

Your Non Start issue sounds more like an issue with the solenoid wiring, this can be easily verified with a jumper. Please take a look at the starter drawings I just posted then look at your schematic and trace out the route the solenoid wiring takes. There are so many variations in the way Guzzis are wired, even in 2002 some solenoids were still wired through the ignition switch which is plain stupid IMHO, can you scan your diagram to post? I assume you have eliminated the problem with the connector under the tank that requires moving the bars from lock to lock? Dielectric grease is non conductive, I don't know any grease that is but it helps the electrical connection by banning air and moisture that would cause corrosion, I prefer plain old vaseline myself, but I'm cheap Update Rant: I looked at all Carl's drawings for 2000, 2002, Every one of the solenoids is wired through the ignition switch, I don't know what Luigi was at the time but obviously he didn't realize that the starter solenoid would like to pull about 50 Amps for the split second it takes to pull in. Even 0.2 Ohms of resistance would cut it's pull power by half. I suspect the additional wire alone is at least 0.1 Ohms, never mind the switch contacts after a year or two. Compare one of these 2000, 2 schematics with the 1999 V11 Sport schematic which doesn't go near the switch. It's not easy to get a feel for how much voltage is lost in the circuit because if it is able to pull in the current drops to less than 10 too quick to see on a meter. End of Rant The way to really get a feel for Voltage drop is by disconnecting the main power lead at the solenoid (or battery post), measure between the small trigger wire and chassis while you press start. Without the main feed the heavy current is maintained as long as it takes to pop the 15 Amp fuse, (tuning for maximum smoke)

Hi, I recently pulled apart one of the Bosch starters to compare it with a Valeo. The Bosch has a series wound motor with a direct drive (no gearbox). A series motor can generate very high torque. The Valeo has a motor with permanent magnet fields and a planetary gearbox to increase the available torque. The solenoids on both starters are similar, they both have dual coils and require a really good circuit from the battery to pull in. The bike wiring schematics do not show the dual coil arrangement, it's more like a black box. The solenoid draws a very heavy current for a fraction of a second, If there is too much resistance in the circuit the it will not be able to pull in and close the main contacts. The battery - fuse - relay - solenoid circuit I have shown is about as simple as it gets. For those of you that have the solenoid powered through the ignition switch I strongly suggest you consider re-wiring to bypass the switch. Running the start relay coil through ignition switch is OK, it only draws a fraction of an Amp You will notice I show a 15 Amp fuse in a circuit drawing up to 50 Amp, the fuse won't blow because the peak current only flows for about 1/10 of a second, just until the main contact closes. Bosch Starter.pdf Valeo Starter.pdf I hope this helps Roy

I guess that's the kind of thing I was trying to do only instead of moving the TPS I just added or subtracted a few mV. Here's the circuit I used Throttle position Trim Pot.pdf The idea was to find the sweet spot, measure the offset mV then move the TPS to get the same offset. However once I assembled Cliff's ECU I soon forgot about that. Thanks Cliff, my bike now runs like a Swiss watch

Sorry, I should have been a bit clearer, I have no intention of using this as a permanent fix. You are right of course, I simply thought by moving up or down the TP rows I would be making the mixture more or less rich. When I gave up on that I bought a MyECU, it's magic.

I thought I'd better not hijack the other TPS thread. A while back I made myself a little black box so I could +/- the sensor signal by up to 300 mV thinking this would allow me to change the mixture map on the fly. I thought I would be able to notice a significant change in acceleration however it seemed to have almost no effect leaving me disappointed and puzzled. Perhaps at speed the throttle position has less effect than other inputs such as engine revs. Is there some sort of math formula showing the relationship between TPS mV, RPM, Air/Oil temperature and the resulting mixture. I had thought of strapping my osciliscope to the tank to monitor the injector opening time but that might be a bit distracting

Yes, you can also measure it at the ECU This drawing shows measuring the resistance with the ECU unplugged ECU Test Points.pdf The purpose of this drawing is to test the items connected to the ECU, not the ECU itself. If you want to measure the voltage take a sewing pin and drive it thru the wire going to pin 11 Measure Voltage between the pin and battery negative or another pin thru wire going to pin 22 The wire going to pin 1 is fixed at 5 Volts Remember the plug will be a mirror image of the one I show because you will be looking at the back. Note also, my colours are not as on the bike. Hope this helps Roy

It could also be Voltage drop in the start circuit, do you hear the solenoid engage before or after the delay? The starter solenoid would like to draw about 50 Amps so just the slightest resistance will reduce its effect considerably e.g. 0.1 Ohm in the circuit will drop the power to half. Check for the start circuit fuse getting warm. Once the starter is engaged the solenoid current drops to Valeo and Bosch are similar. Bosch Starter.pdf Valeo Starter.pdf Perhaps it's just cold oil gumming up the solenoid as mznyc suggests.