Kiwi_Roy

I have been plauged by an intermittent fault recently, the tacho would drop out and the battery loosing it's charge. I figured out that I was loosing the voltage from the headlight relay which also happens to be a reference for the Ducati regulator. I found the 87 contact on R2 was not gripping the relay pin at all. It took me about 2 hours to tighten all contacts Heres a sinple drawing showing how easy it is to remove the contacts from the base and re-tighten them. I also advocate the appllication of some form of grease to protect the connection from corrosion. I use only Petroleum Jelly aka Vasilene myself. Do 1 relay at a time so you don't forget where the wires go. BTW my release tool is just a sliver of sheet metal whch I cut in the vice with a cold chisel. looks pretty rough but does the job. Even a thin nail will work to release the clip. Once you get the hang of it they pop right out. A pair of needle nose pliers makes the job even easier. I would be interested to hear if anyone else finds loose connections i.e. no tension when slid onto a relay pin. In other words please test it for tension before squeezing. Which Relay, Which pin and any electrical symtoms you had observed previous to tightening? Did the symptoms dissapear after tightening? Thanks Roy Relays Bases May 10 2010.pdf

I found a loose connection on R2 that caused the tacho to drop out intermittently, by association the regulator would fail also. Look at my detailed post about 9 back. Roy

My 02 V11 Sport has 3 nipples, I know this because I took the driveshaft off to lube the front one. You feel between the two halves with your finger. Roy

Here's how to get the f/m connectors out of the base, I need to fix some of mine as well The larger ones are quite easy to find in automotive store, they are a universal style, the smaller ones are universal also but harder to find. You will probably get by just squeezing them a bit. I use petroleum jelly on mine to keep air and water from corroding. Relays Bases April 24 2010.pdf

I have a problem with my charging at the moment, hopefully by the time I get it sorted I will be a whole lot wiser. Some of the wiring makes me scratch my head, what were they thinking?

Do you think someone ran a ground or is it original, I have the Ducati regulator, I'm sure mine has improved, I will know by tonight, I just added a sketch back up the thread a little.

Updated Response May 10 First of all I put my multimeter (Fluke 87) in series with the bullet connector at the end of regulator cable (2 red wires plug into 1 going back to 30 Amp fuse) I saw 4.5 - 5 Amps and thought "that looks OK for 1000 rpm". But when I reconnected the bullet connector and measured the battery voltage to my surprise it was dropping. I pulled the positive wires off the battery and put back just the heavy lead to starter motor, It would fry the meter if i tried to measure that and besides it's only used for cranking. The other two positive wires I joined with the positive clip of meter, the negative clip to the battery positive, This is the normal location for an ammeter, or it used to be on the British bikes when they had generators. At first turning on the key the current goes to -9 dropping back to -5 when the pump stops At 1000 RPM the current is - 4.5 (discharging) At 2000 RPM it's break even At 3000 RPM it's +5 (charging) Note: Your results may be different depending on all sorts of things, I would be interested to compare Also Note: the message on the Ducati reg saying not to remove wires with the engine running, turn the bike off while you connect the ammeter! Roy PS If all my numbers don't add up, don't shoot me, I'm going from memory here ok! Update I just got back from a short ride 12.83 volts when i left, 12.77 mid way and 12.83 when I got back Obviously the reg is on it's way out, the red light came on dimly at times with no relationship to revs. I am confident all the wiring is OK If you get a chance please duplicate my tests and i will fix the drawing up. Update 2 I had major problems yesterday the bike lost voltage from the outset, I noticed that the tacho would drop to zero so from that I figure the regulator is loosing it's 12 V reference as well. I will inspect all the wiring through the week. I even tried jumpering from the headlight to the regulator, it didn't improve so the headlight is probably going out too I suspect the relay base at the moment R1 87a or R2. At one stage I called into an electronic hardware store, bought a bridge rectifier and put it in place of the regulator thus bypassing most of the wiring, even at idle the battery voltage shot up past 14.5, this proves that there is plenty of current available. I couldn't leave it in because above idle it pushed the voltage past 15 and the bike would cut out. I think there must be something in the ECU that causes it to cut out if voltage is too high. Update 3 May 10 2010 Tonight I pulled the relay bases off and removed all the contacts. Several of the contacts were quite loose, barely gripping the relay pin and one of the 87 contacts on relay 2 wasn't gripping at all. I tightened them all by squeezing carefully with a pair of pliers. I think this has made an improvement, see revised sketch, note 5 I don't fully understand why the improvement but I haven't been for a ride yet so the jury is still out on the regulator. I'm almost certain that the loose 87 contact was the cause of the tacho dropping back to zero. All in all it took me around 2 hours to pull the contacts and if nothing else I can cross that off the list. I haven't been riding at night otherwise I'm sure I would have noticed a flicker in the headlight. I added a few notes to the relay base drawing to show contact removal etc. Charging Circuit.pdf Relays Bases May 10 2010.pdf

I just put my regulator back this evening, same bike, same year but the regulator was just grounded to the frame, no wire back to the battery. I bolted a heavy ground cable to it and ran to an engine bolt. It seems to have made a difference but time will tell. I don't think your new reg needs a ground and another nice thing it won't need the headlight circuit to work. Of course you won't have a charging light. You might be able to come up with a little circuit to turn the light on say below 12.5 volts I found out something interesting, at idle the alternator puts out around 5 Amps but the drain on the battery is 9 Amps, It's not until just under 2000 revs that it breaks even, at 3000 there's a net gain of about 10-12 Amps Roy

Once again Carl Allison saves the day Here is his Breva Drawing Note: You will no longer have a Charging light. Make sure you connect the two green to a solid ground point The Two reds connect together and go back to the 30 Amp fuse Just tape up the other connector on your bike. I don't think this regulator requires grounding but bolt it down. Two yellows as before to the alternator coil wires Roy

On my bike there is a two pin connector on the short cable from the regulator. The non reversable M/F one just by the front of the tank. One of the wires must go to the light the other must be the 12 V reference from headlight circuit to regulator. I think with the key on you should find 12V on both wires one 12V direct via the headlight relay, one 12V through the charging lamp. Try that with your meter. Then try connecting to ground via a 12V lamp, it should light on one but make the charging lamp light on the other. Roy 0219_001.pdf

I had trouble with my bike over the weekend with lots of start/stops and no long runs it dropped to a point where it would no longer crank. The first thing I noticed the tacho started wavering with the turn indicators on, The battery has always been low, so I knew i was going to have to look at it sooner or later, I have a Ducati regulator also. So heres what I found I disconnected the single plug where the two red wires connect to the single wire back to 30 amp fuse and inserted my meter, it measured 4.5 - 5 amps at idle, I thought that should charge OK but no the battery kept dropping in voltage, Next I inserted my meter between the battery and the two red wires (left the starter wire on the battery) so now I see that below 2000 rpm I have a net loss of charge. It turns out there is about 9 amps leaving the battery I pulled the regulator off, the mounting looks a little corroded. It relies on the mounting bolts to carry all of the current from generator. Any voltage drop from regulator case to chassis will show up as a loss in battery volts. Aluminium to steel is not a happy match so I made myself a good solid grounding cable which I bolted to one of the fins filed and slathered with lots of petroleum jelly to keep out the moisture (corrosion) I will connect the other end to a suitable bolt on the engine, Tonight I will stick it all back together and keep you posted BTW without the headlight powered my regulator doesn't put out any current either (no reference voltage) Cheers Roy

The alternator on the V11 turns at crankshaft speed. It has 14 poles (7 pairs of poles), so if you have a multimeter with a frequency range or dedicated frequency meter its a breeze to check the engine speed. Connect the frequency meter to the two yellow wires coming from the alternator and measure the frequency. Multiply the frequency by 60 to get cycles per minute, then divide by pairs of poles and you have the exact RPM RPM = Hz x 60 / 7 Another way to check if you don't have a frequency meter would be to remove the alternator cover and make a mark on the rotor (spinning part) View this mark in the light of a florescent fitting, at certain points the mark will appear to stand still (stroboscopic effect) In parts of the world where you have 50 Hz power the light pulses at 100 Hz or 3000 times per minute, (for 60 Hz power pulses at 120 Hz or 3600 times per minute). The mark will never actually stand still in one place but at 1500 and 3000 (900, 1800 & 3600) will appear to move slowly. A single tube florescent will give you the most visible results. Sorry, you can't use a battery powered one. I haven't actually tried but a super bright LED powered from a small transformer with a suitable resistor should also work as a strobe light at half wave it will pulse at 50 Hz (60 Hz) or if you rectify the AC with a bridge rectifier it will be 100 Hz (120 Hz)

Did you ever get this to work, if not please send me a PM Roy

That makes perfect sense to me, I have been thinking it might be best to do the high rev balance under load reading the DP while riding either with an electronic DP gauge or something simpler, what do you think?

I may not be the best person to respond to this but here's what I did I balanced them as close as possible with the bypass screws closed using the left and right idle stops. Then I opened the bypass screws and fine balanced I balanced at high revs using the white knob on the linkage Some advocate only using one throttle stop, the left I think but in my humble opinion there's too much slop in the linkage, you want the bike to idle nicely so if you use both stops it will always come back to the same fixed point. Are you using 2 gauges or a manometer? Roy

Then it must be in the regulator itself, I suspect by going On/Off/On you are setting up different set of conditions than just straight Off to On. My guess is a capacitor is retaining a charge so next time it comes on. I sure wish I could get a schematic of the regulator internals, I could be more help if I had that. Does anyone know the make & model fitted? I think I may tackle the alternator circuit diagram as my next project. BTW is it charging OK?

I have messed electrics over the past 50, some of what I learned stuck. Since buying my V11 Sport last year I have been exposed to a whole range of gremlins. Short Circuits If you have a short circuit on the bike and can't locate it before the fuse blows, remove the fuse and substitute a high Wattage lamp (solder a couple of wires to an old headlamp works great). The lamp will pass enough current to power the circuit, (even the headlight will light up dimly) but as soon as you get a short it will glow at full brightness. This lets you wiggle all the wires around looking for when it opens/shorts. Tape over any exposed live contacts on the lamp, you don't want a short. Caution, unplug the ECU before doing this with F1/F2. And I don't mean ride the bike like that Intermittent Open Circuit Here's a trick electricians use. If you have a point X you suspect is loosing power take a spare relay, wire it's coil in series with the normally open contact then connect it to point X and negative (chassis) Energize the coil by shorting the contacts for a second. (You can get fancy and add a push button) As long as your point X has power the relay will stay energized but if it looses power for even a split second the relay will open and stay open. Of course if you turn the key off the relay will drop out. You can add a light across the coil or to a normally closed contact. it doesn't really matter just as long as you know if it's energized or not. I knocked mine up using one of the old Siemens relays, pushbutton and an LED. I have the relay under the seat and just connect to wherever I need to test. The light and pushbutton just hang out the front of seat where I can see them. Relay Testing The best spot to test a suspect relay is R1 spot, there both contacts are used and some fairly heavy currents flow, The R2 spot is good if you suspect the relay is dropping out, you will soon notice if it opens there as the tacho will drop to zero. Warning - don't do your testing at night, loss of lighting is not good! Measure current without an ammeter. All you need is a digital multimeter with a mV scale. Take a short length of wire sized for the current you need to measure and look up the volt drop tables (most assume there and back so you have to thing double) Figure out how much length you need for a 1 or 10 mV drop at 1 amp Bare the wire at two points that far apart and connect the meter there. Although copper wire is not the best metal to use as a shunt, it works reasonably well, is cheap, well insulated and can safely take an overload of 100% or more for a short time. The meter connection is not made at the end to avoid stray voltages made by contact resistance A word of warning - The small meter leads are live so don't let them make contact with exposed metal. A couple of meter jacks works well. Troubleshooting Tips.pdf

155K seems low for open switch but not low enough to cause you any problem. (I don't have the drawing with me) There might be some moisture in somewhere or were you touching the circuit so that your body was passing. If you suspect moisture it will often show up as a different ohms reading if you flip the meter probes around (battery effect) Good Riding Roy

Yes, Docc ran a test and found that charging stops if Relay 2 (headlight relay) is removed, the tacho and panel lights also take power from the headlight relay. "You don't have to be an electrician to ride a Guzzi, but it helps"

Docc, Thanks for checking that out, I don't have access to my bike at the moment. I was surprised to see it wired that way, I think it must be to compensate when the headlight is on. Roy

As I mentioned in the thread "Wont Start" the schematic from Carl Allison shows the headlight relay also supplies the tacho Generator Light Oil Light Low Fuel light Tachometer (not it's lights though) Horn and a wire goes back to the regulator You need to find out where your lihts are shorting and I suspect the charging will follow Roy

No, I'm not talking about the lamps, the drawing definatly shows a connection from 67 of the headlight relay to supply Generator light Oil pressure light Low fuel light Tacho (not the tacho light) Headlight Hi/Lo switch Horn button Front and back brake light switches. And to the regulator (what could this be if not a charging reference) All this is supplied from F5 which appears to be OK because it cranks If none of the first 7 work I would suspect the relay R2 You could jumper across R1/ R2 direct from the battery to 67 of R2, that will eliminate it. If the lights now go I would check the relay bases. Another check you can do is unplug R2 and see if yoou get 12V at terminal 30. Just follow the drawing step by step starting at the fuse F5, R1-30, Put R1 back, R2-30, R2-87 (wrap a short piece of bare wire around the relay terminal so you gan measure it when the fuse is plugged in. I wouldn't suspect the relay at this early stage, you need to take care of the other issues first Kiwi_Roy

Horn, Headlight, I am thinkin something to do with relay 2 as well g The Carl Allison dwg 1999 V11 Sport shows a feed from the headlight relay R2 going to the dash lights and tacho. It also shows a wire to the regulator (I don't know what thats for but perhaps the regulator needs power from R2 before it can charge) I bet none of your dash lights are working. Check out my simple drawings under Simple Wiring Diagrams, they may help also. Regards from an expat kiwi Roy

I checked the thermistors last night, both about 4.75 kOhm No the brakes are not getting warm Atached is the calc Raz asked me for, basicly the higher the temperature the sooner choke flow occurs, this is because the vapour pressure is lower. The change in density is insignificant. The change in flow about -9% for 50°F temperature rise. I don't claim that this is accurate, gasoline is far too complex for me to calculate, it just shows what happens. Roy Flo Calcs RevA.pdf