Lucky Phil
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Posts posted by Lucky Phil
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How did you measure the thickness of the friction plate. The difference in thickness between a new plate and a worn out plate is quite small, maybe less than 1mm.
These clutches are known for their high wear rate on the earlier friction plate versions.
Ciao
Well you are right in thinking that I can't have measured the thickness of the plate very accurately - short of removing the clutch the only way to do it was using a caliper through the inspection hole. It looked pretty much un-worn but I wouldn't like to put a figure on it. However, I'm unconvinced that a friction plate can be worn out after less than 1mm wear. In theory the thickness of the friction material should be of no consequence providing there is some friction material left. The friction material does not provide structural strength to the plate, this is the job of the inner steel core, so loss of friction material as the plate wears should not cause any problems apart from the lack of adjustment one I've experienced. After all, a similar single plate diaphragm design is used in virtually all car clutches, which regularly last 100,000 miles, despite being given a much harder time than my clutch ever gets. I wonder whether the reports of clutch plates being "worn out" at low mileages are actually other people suffering the same lack of adjustment problem as me?
What you fail to understand is that clutch slippage from a worn friction plate is due to the fact that the pressure plate travel reaches its limit at the engaged end of the travel and therefore cant apply the same degree of spring pressure.This is usually signified by slipping and running out of actuating free play which is what you have.
Clutch fiction plate thickness reduction of 1mm would be a worn out clutch.
Ciao
Why would shimming the slave make any difference then?
Well if it is indeed a worn out friction plate and it may not be, I just think its a likely possibility having high wear rate for these units mentioned by a well known and respected Guzzi mechanic/dealer in Australia.
I also am aware that there are later Ram specific friction plates available that are advertised as being of greater durability ( see MG cycles, version 4 I think and they are up to and it is 6.68mm thickness as opposed to 5.5 for the old version). The later plate also requires a shorter actuating rod.
So put it all together and you have a possibility.
The question here is when the Ram plate is worn out is it the pressure plate/diaphram that reaches its limit of effectivity or is it the actuating system, ie the piston travel on the slave? That I don't know.
If the limiting factor is the slave travel then either shimming it out or at some point in the life of the clutch you go to a shorter rod and get extra wear out of the friction plate. Maybe the Ram unit doesn't have a high rate of wear its just a case of the actuating system isn't well matched to the diaphram design, don't know. As is often the case though in these forum posts its impossible to tell what parts were used in the clutch conversion so that also a factor.
I have a new single plate Ram unit in the workshop to go into the V11 when I fit the Daytona engine and was debating with the previously mentioned knowledge on the wear rates of the earlier versions which mine is whether or not to even use the original new plate or just buy the latest version with the greater durability.
Upon reflection I wouldn't be surprised if the original 5.5mm plate though is too thin for the operating system and that is the limiting factor. I was surprised when I saw the new version 4 plate was over 1mm thicker than the original, i was expecting just a material change. Also 1mm of wear or there abouts will be a worn out clutch in most cases. The friction material on all single plate clutches I have ever see car or bike is generally only around .5mm above the securing rivets so that amount of wear on both sides and the clutch is gone.
Ciao
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How did you measure the thickness of the friction plate. The difference in thickness between a new plate and a worn out plate is quite small, maybe less than 1mm.
These clutches are known for their high wear rate on the earlier friction plate versions.
Ciao
Well you are right in thinking that I can't have measured the thickness of the plate very accurately - short of removing the clutch the only way to do it was using a caliper through the inspection hole. It looked pretty much un-worn but I wouldn't like to put a figure on it. However, I'm unconvinced that a friction plate can be worn out after less than 1mm wear. In theory the thickness of the friction material should be of no consequence providing there is some friction material left. The friction material does not provide structural strength to the plate, this is the job of the inner steel core, so loss of friction material as the plate wears should not cause any problems apart from the lack of adjustment one I've experienced. After all, a similar single plate diaphragm design is used in virtually all car clutches, which regularly last 100,000 miles, despite being given a much harder time than my clutch ever gets. I wonder whether the reports of clutch plates being "worn out" at low mileages are actually other people suffering the same lack of adjustment problem as me?
What you fail to understand is that clutch slippage from a worn friction plate is due to the fact that the pressure plate travel reaches its limit at the engaged end of the travel and therefore cant apply the same degree of spring pressure.This is usually signified by slipping and running out of actuating free play which is what you have.
Clutch fiction plate thickness reduction of 1mm would be a worn out clutch.
Ciao
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How did you measure the thickness of the friction plate. The difference in thickness between a new plate and a worn out plate is quite small, maybe less than 1mm.
These clutches are known for their high wear rate on the earlier friction plate versions.
Ciao
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Theory only, unless someone knows the engineer that designed it .....
The box itself is captured by the axle in the swingarm. Not going to have any"movement" there.
We have a 2- piece driveshaft that is capable of being "variable" length.
With the stock rod in place with stock bushings there is a limited amount of up and down movement.
Now this is my own thought....the box could care less about what kind of rod ends are on the Reaction rod.
The only movement the rod is trying to prevent is the box "climbing the gears " as we accelerate
and "falling down" as we decell". It will also keep the driveshaft within a certain parameters throughout
its movement.
I was one of the early ones that made a nylon type bushing for mine. I have 100,000 miles on it and 115,000
on the bike.Whether it was the right thing to do...only more time will tell. so far so good
the experiment I did was to remove the rear wheel and reinstall the box with axle and tighten up.I took the bottom
shock mount out and installed a good stock reaction rod. Not much up and down movement.
You could get the box to sit a whatever Height you tighten the Rod. Put my rod back in with homemade bushings...
and as we say down here....It was smooth as butter. Full travel of the swingarm.
Maybe I was wrong ....maybe I was right ....it sure rides nice
That is the outcome I would expect with the different rods. What you felt with the stock rod is the rubber bushes flexing and resisting the movement of the arm. Noticeable in this test but in real world riding I couldn't feel the difference in suspension action between the std and Rossopuro. Such is the case with many mechanical things, what the theory and bench testing exhibits isn't necessarily a significant factor in the riding. A little like the Guzzi engine torque reaction. At standstill its noticeable but riding its not noticeable or an issue.
Ciao
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There should be no FREE axial or lateral movement in the reaction rod. The pinion bearing will have a little radial movement,
Ciao
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Interesting thread.
I've got a question(s) though, when can a guy tell when his stock reaction rod has worn out? Too much play?....
Also, anyone know if Stein Dinse still has the Stucchi rods?
The rubber coupling will be torn from fatigue or maybe perished if its been subjected to a hi ozone environment and therefore have play.
Ciao
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The shift rod ends on my sport are stamped "DURBAL"
I had no idea they had composite bearing material. Good thing, 'cause I've never lubed them.
Some info on maintenance free rod ends.
Ciao
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Read this phrase in an auto magazine regarding differences in performance that aren't significant in a real world setting: "within the noise." I thought this likely reflects my thinking that the rubber or urethane could limit suspension travel - yeah, could be, probably "wiithin the noise."
What rod ends would need nil lubrication?
You can get rod ends with composite bearing material that don't require lube. As the std Rossopuro ones fitted to my bike and the std gearshift linkage rod ends fitted to the V11.
Ciao
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As I mentioned I couldn't feel any difference in suspension performance but then again I didn't do a " back to back" blind test and my bike has an all singing and dancing Wilbers rear shock. The theory says the rod and bearings should have less impact on suspension movement and that may be the case.
As for the practicality well rod end bearings are fairly inexpensive as is a piece of aluminium rod of the required length.
Having a lather at home i think I could machine up a rod in about 15 minutes, 25 if I wanted it to look fancy and wasted down.
So if you have a local machine shop around, count on an hours labor, say what, $60, a piece of stock at $10 and a pair of rod ends at maybe $35 for 2. So around $100 all up...cheap. Then you have something that is lighter, looks better is easier to service and if you choose the right rod ends, nil lubricating.
Is there really a decision here when the original one comes to the end of its life?
Ciao
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Why would you mess about with all of this when you can run a simple cheap and light rod with rose joints at each end?
Ciao
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I've had both types ( std and Rossopuro) fitted to my V11 and I can feel zero difference in the way the suspension works and the level of vibration or shock transmitted.
Ciao
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It occurs to me that we could be talking of fore-and-aft rigidity, like Heim joints would provide, which is good, versus rotational rigidity which would resist the rise and fall of the suspension travel - which would be bad.
I am presuming Heim joints and Rose joints are one and the same?
Yes the same. As I pointed out in another thread it seems, no cushioning is necessary. The original design is what it is because its cheap to make, less machining. One machining operation and press fit some bushes. Cheap and cheerful. It has to be a hydrolastic bush only because its bolted up tight. The bush is there to allow the rear suspension to work not for shock absorption.
A rod ended torque arm has zero end or side float and the anchor points at both the frame and Bevel box are cruise liner dimensions. So they are rugged.
In case nobody has noticed Guzzi don't just over engineer everything they over engineer it then add some.
That's why they weigh a ton.
Ciao
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Wow, did I really resurrect this thread! Don't know how that happened.
Ciao
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Looks like you need the 5001230 at HMB Guzzi (series1 gasket) but check the photo of the series 2 as well. One of the holes is bigger on the series 2.
http://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-cover-gasket-metal-newer-Big-Twins-1st-series
Ciao
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there would be NO give whatsoever in the rod.What's the matter with making one with Aluminum tubing and heim ends?
So what, give is not required with spherical bearings. The only reason the rod and spherical bearing solution is not used in the first place is a cost of manufacture and maintenance one.
The Rossopuro unit works well, looks good and bearings are cheap and easy to replace when need arises.
Ciao
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Would it be possible to cut/chop out the old bushings and press a couple of spherical plain bearings in i wonder?
Of course you can. Thats what my bike has effectively in the form of a Rossopuro unit.
Ciao
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I ordered the crank seal and timing gasket yesterday, not going to worry about the tensioner as the bike only has 8k on the odo....unless its a murphy law thing and its shot when I get in there. Harpers said they install all their gaskets dry, thinking I may give Hondabond a try to hold the gaskets in place, it get solid reviews.
If you are going to use a gasket you shouldn't be using anything on the gasket, that's what gaskets are for sealing between 2 faces. Coating gaskets with any form of sealant stops the gasket Keying to the sealing face.
As I said in a previous post use the later metal composite gasket ....without sealant! They are far superior and wont lose sections. They are also coated with a pressure sensitive coating as well that forms the seal.
Ciao
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Why would you want a larger oil cooler? is there some empirical evidence one is needed? or is it the " I just need to change something" deal.
Ciao
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4 year oil leak fixed! The top part of the timing cover gasket had dropped down below the casing during installation and wasnt sealing. Replaced it with a new one and should be tight now. While I was in there, I noticed my alternator stator was really dirty. I dont like the looks of black and green coil windings. I cleaned the sh1t out of it but i'm a little worried about this.
Did you use one of the later metal composite gaskets? will prevent this happening again.
Ciao
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You can try by removing the rubber plug on the right side of the engine, sticking in a really large flat screwdriver between the teeth and the housing, thus locking the flywheel against the housing. I managed to undo mine the other day, without any visible damage.Has anyone done this before? The manual mentions using a flywheel lock tool to lock the crank and then remove the rotor and stator.
Just beware, this is not an official procedure. May backfire!
Yes and don't forget to wear your blue and white striped butchers apron while your doing it.
Ciao
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Just removed rear wheel to take in to the shop for new tire, and did the usual spin on the axle check for bearing smoothness ... right (drive) side feels a little notchy with some play - so reckon I'll need a new wheel bearing on that side (the other side feels ok).
In searching around I could not find the standard size / spec (other than the 6205-2RS posted above) - are both rear wheel bearings the same size?
If someone has rear wheel bearing specs handy it would be much appreciated. I think they were replaced with standard MG (SKF?) bearings last time.
Yea both the same size and type. Check the bearing spacer length.
Ciao
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Just replaced mine after brake side bearing failure, cause......a too short by 0.5mm spacer. Rectified that so expect decent bearing life now.
Ciao
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That is my buddy's 800, I have a couple of 750's and a 700.
Compared to my '95 750, the sound is better, much more torque and engine braking, more of an upright seating position which is keeping my throttle hand feeling much better. It seems to have a lower center of gravity which makes it more maneuverable at low speed. The little screen seems to do a good job of wind protection up to a point.
So far the only down points are vibration, which I have to admit is getting better on this bike the more I ride it, and the transmission gives me false neutrals, I think I am just going to have to be more deliberate with it. I guess the other would be MPG's, 45-50 on the VFR,
This is actually a replacement for my old GL1000, I like having a standard/touring, but I live about 45 minutes from Shady Valley, so I tend to push the Wing a little too much on the curves. Also going to use this as my touring machine, the hard luggage and a better feeling throttle hand fits the bill.
My selector mechanism rework and and shift lever rod arm extension have been a revelation with regards to shifting on my bike. Shifting is Japanese bike standard now.
Ciao
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I received my EDLGUZ-VoltRect unit from EME yesterday and installed it this morning.
I strung 10 gauge wire from the battery to the regulator/rectifier area and spliced together all the pertinent wires. I now reach 14.5V around 2k RPM. That is quite a difference.
You wouldn't want to see any more than 14.5 volts if you are running and AGM battery or you will cook it.
Ciao
RAM clutch slip
in Technical Topics
Posted
moscowphil, out of interest when you went to the Ram clutch on your bike (new friction plate etc) at what point did the clutch dis-engage/engage when you pulled the lever?
So when you pulled the clutch lever at what point in the lever travel did the clutch release or conversely at what point did it begin to bite? Did it release very early in the lever pull or did you need to get it nearly all the way back to the bar before it would disengage and then the engagement would also be close to the bar of course? Or was this point right near the fully relaxed end of the lever travel?
Ciao