Lucky Phil

Thank Pete. Ciao

Ok Pete and docc got the images, very nice thanks. The MGS engine basically uses a jackshaft that has had all the back lopped off and machined down to a short 12.5 mm long stub that slips into the same sized bearing as the Griso. You then just seal off the oil feed to the rear jackshaft/camshaft bearing and save youself some oil feed and friction losses. I'll try and post an image later. Ciao

The idea is to run the least pressure you realistically can to provide lubrication and cooling to save power and also give better fuel economy. This is why the latest cars in the US especially tend to run 20 weight oil like 0W-20 to meet the government regulated fuel economy targets. Less pumping losses equals better fuel economy.The same applies to a Guzzi engine except being an old air cooled design it needs a heavier oil but the same applies it's just it happens to be at a different level. No point creating more oil pressure than you can use. High oil pressure isn't always desirable as it generally indicates a lower level of flow(pressure is just the indicated difference between the amount delivered over the rate of leakage) and you need flow to cool things like plain bearings. This is part of the reason you run wider bearing clearances in a race engine, to increase the oil flow through the bearing to aid cooling for a bearing now operating at an increased load for longer duration. In the case of the Guzzi 2 valve and even more distinctly the old 8 valve models that have extra leak paths through more bearings and run hotter is that you are trying to balance out all the variables including the complication of air cooling. So running a 60 weight oil itself isn't particularly desirable as it reduces flow through the main and big end bearings however it has the advantage of having a higher load carrying capacity and props up the minimum oil pressure when the conditions get extreme for an old air cooled engine in high ambient conditions and heavy traffic. Its a balancing act, does the engine need the extra load carrying capacity of the 60W? I doubt it but in some cases it needs it at the other end.So basically for an old air cooled Guzzi you need an oil that will provide around 10psi/1000rpm oil pressure (although for a road and even some race engines you can get away with considerably less) and also hold up enough pressure at the idle end to keep the LOP light off. My 2 valve angine always ran on Mobil1 0W-40 oil and never had an issue with the oil light at idle and I know it had enough pressure at the other end because it never blew up,or made metal LOL. My Daytona engine with the std spring makes 58-60 psi hot max and around 32 psi hot on 15W-40 oil. Both ends are adequate, the top end max could be better but its not going to be an issue. To get the top end better I have a choice, either a heavier oil or the John ratified Griso spring. For the moment its the heavier 10W-60 oil but further down the track when its convenient I may just update to the Griso spring and lighter weight oil. Ciao

Oh Ok Pete, looking at the colour representation of the oil system I see the pressure side still goes around the front jackshaft bearing and I assumed it only went there to transfer to the aft jackshaft bearing. I can see now and you stirred my memory that the feeds from the cooler are dedicated cooling circuits. I was taking an interest because I want to convert a Daytona engine I'm building to the MGS-01 system that eliminates the jackshaft by using a 25x12x47mm ball bearing where the front cam bearing used to be. The MGS though feeds the heads from the oil cooler and I'd prefer the head feeds were internal as std. You might know Pete is the front bearing now used in the Griso to support the jackshaft at the front a ZZ or double sealed grease filled bearing? I can see it has a seal on the forward side but I have no view of the side that's inside the case.If you use a ball bearing here with the internal oil feed gallery you need to machine an oil feed groove in the case around the bearing OD. Its either that or run a needle bearing there with a steel bush and machine the oil feed groove in that. So do you know if the front jackshaft bearing in the 1200 engine is the double sealed ball or just a single seal? I'm guessing its a double sealed unit? Ciao

Well in the commercial jet world generally speaking you don't do anything on the strength of 1 parameter failure. You look at the other parameters and if they are all normal you continue. I once had a pilot call me looking to divert to a small alternate strip because of a fuel filter clogging light on. I asked him about the other parameters, any fluctuations etc? No. I mentioned to him that these switches were prone to failure and that by the time he diverted to the small alternate remote strip with no support of any kind he'd only be 10 min from his major scheduled destination strip anyway, but it was his decision. He went for the alternate, sigh, and it took us half a day to get him out of there. You can lead a horse as they say. Ciao

Yes Pete, doing some research and looking at the Griso engine via the dealer tech training notes and the shop and parts manual I quite like the engine. About the only thing thats a step backward for techies like me is the crank end float bearing that's part of the case. Should never be an issue for a decently maintained engine but I do like replaceable bearings where possible. I would have also liked the head oil feeds to be more internal organised and not rely so much on external piping from the cooler but its not a biggie. All in all they seem quite well designed things and don't look too bad aesthetics wise. If I was building a "special" it's the engine I'd use. Ciao

You can buy a dedicated magnets for the oil filter. Its called a Filtermag. I run one each on the two "nice" cars I have. More useful during break in I think when there is a lot of wear particles coming off piston rings. They cant hurt but no good on a Guzzi internal filter. just buy yourself a nice anodised 19mm drain mag plug off Ebay like I have on my engine. Cheap as chips and effective. Two Blue mag plugs on sump Ciao

Yes the best locations for those by far is on the bench in the workshop as testing equipment only. Ciao

1 kg/cm2 John is .9806 bar so close enough for me to 1/1. Mine has a "5" stamped on it but produced closer to 3-4 on the bench, for what air testing is worth. Truth is that both engines will survive happily on 50-60 ish max as road engines. If I was racing one and it was turning 6-9000 rpm most of the time I'd think it was prudent to go to the Griso spring for a little head room at the top end. The path down this oil pressure black hole,lol which has opened up a whole lot of interesting learnings and knowledge which I genuinely enjoy originated when you had a LOP indication in traffic due in part to high oil temp. So the major issue here is to get some head room at the bottom end for hot traffic conditions so you don't get into the uncomfortable position of the oil light coming on in these situations. Not that it's a big issue idling because you can verify things are ok by a blip of the throttle and if the light goes out then all is fine. Even at the 4 psi LOP light switch threshold you'll have enough oil pressure at idle.However it is not something you want happening to distract you in heavy traffic. The easiest solution for the low end pressure is to run a XXW-60 oil at the upper end of the grade tolerance. The other pathways are the Griso spring which seems to work or in your bikes case to try and keep the oil temp down which is mainly due to I believe the full fairings it runs, something you are working on. For V11 owners all this info could still be useful at some point if you have oil pressure issues or questions. Personally the std V11 system seems adequate to the task but a higher rated oil pump and/or a Griso spring would be a nice upgrade to provide plenty of pressure head room esp for the later models with the oil squirter holes for the pistons. Ciao

Yes docc, identical in construction and detail . The Daytona/Centauro is "rated" at 5 bar instead of the 3 bar of the V11 but in reality seems to provide the same pressure as the V11. I think for the 8 valve engines they just added a few shims to preload the spring a little more and called it good. As John has tested now the Griso spring ups the pressure a healthy amount which is good for the 8 valve motor but probably not necessary for the V11. Ciao

Nice images Tom, almost feels like I was there. Ciao

Excellent work John, but just 1 amendment for clarity so people using this as a resource in the future dont get confused. You have the plunger the wrong way around. The protruding nose on the plunger engages with the spring and the cylindrical body of the plunger slides into the outer body. Ciao

Yes John that's my position, use the gauge to set the system up and then remove it. The switch should be a "hard time" replaceable item not a soft time. Its a $15 switch and shouldn't be expected to last 20+ years. Just like a lot of aircraft components are replaced at a specific hours I think there is an argument for the same for the LOP switch. Ciao

Well I dont agree with running an oil pressure gauge. John and I have done plenty of research on this now and in my view we have a workable outcome. With the Griso spring you get around 75psi hot oil pressure maximum and idle pressure of around what,32psi hot on 15W-50 oil. The hot maximum is plenty now and the hot idle pressure also has plenty of head room as well ( considering 10 psi at idle is actually all you need). We now have a greatly uprated pump, driven by steel gears which should allay any reliability issues. So John has done a brilliant job with this with a great outcome with plenty of pressure head room at both ends and what should be a bullet proof oiling system. Great, I see no need for an oil pressure gauge now the LOP light is all that's needed. A LOP gauge is just another failure point and distraction in my view. My bike runs significantly less pressure than Johns engine currently and I'm totally comfortable running with just a light. Pretty much every motorcycle made and the vast majority of cars use a light only. There comes a point where you can get tied up with to much information. Oil temperature is a more important matter to look at I think esp in hot ambient traffic conditions. Ciao

I dont doubt it and worth bearing in mind but .3 mm is about the variation in base gasket thicknesses so for all intents and purposes they can be considered the same. Ciao

The heads are different on the EV Calis. Smaller valves and a different oil feed line from memory. I have one in the workshop. The cali cams are different and there is a slight variation in the rocker arms from earlier to later engines. I fitted later rocker arms on my engine which if I recall had a slightly larger end and more thread for the adjusters. Cranks are different depending on what alternator you run and the cranks have a different balance factor depending on what engine and rod piston combo. The rods do vary between the models but I'm not sure of the exact details. Ciao

A mechanical symphony Chuck? Ciao

Nice work John. Personally I can't imagine a better outcome oil pressure wise. Hot max pressure will be around 75psi, cold around 82 and hot idle around 30 psi. Ciao

Pretty much docc. The first Daytona engines didn't have the Carrillo rods and had different pistons a slightly heavier crank and the P8 ecu. Then all the Centauros and the later Daytonas, including the RS's had the Carrillos, later pistons and the 16M ecu. The only difference between the the Centauros and later NON Singapore, Swiss and US versions was different hotter cams. The Centauro's and Swiss,US and Singapore Datyona RS's were identical spec. Ciao

Its just be aware that there are a few mechanical issues you need to address with the Centauro engine that are costly and need to be done to save it from total destruction at some point. So the oil pump needs to be replaced and the alloy cam and oil pump gears are must do items. The gears have a nasty habit of failing and the oil pump stops and then the big ends fail. The oil pump was never fitted with a proper bushing for the gear shaft and wears badly. The V11 pump and chain drive are the most economical option. The Joe Caruso steel gears and oil pump are the "gold standard" fix. As a guide if I was buying a 50,000klm old Centi I'd be budgeting on needing to spend a minimum of around $2000 USD on the engine in parts if its still stock standard and has been well maintained. It will still be running fine but as I said the oil pump and cam drive need to be updated and the lifters will all be failing at that mileage and they are around $230usd each. My total engine rebuild doing all the work myself has probably cost around 8 to $10,000 USD in new parts collected over a 10 year period. That's the reality of it. Ciao

So here's another trap for the rookie, OR the experienced that gets led in a particular direction and doesn't do his due diligence.The cam support on the R/H cylinder has had a tiny,tiny annoying leak since I put it together. The sort of leak thats just a minor annoyance to be honest but seeing I had the tank off replacing the throttle bodies I thought I might as well look at it. Its a PITA on this bike as the engine needs to be supported and the front subframe unbolted and swung forward and the r/h header pipe removed to get the belt cover off. Then loosen the cam belt and remove the cam pulley and then remove the cam support. Anyway I had a suspicion I had used the incorrect oring on one side, I thought I may have used the fractionally smaller rocker cover plug hole oring so I got the support off and measured the installed oring ID against a spare I had and yes it looked to be under sized. Great I thought that's the issue. I did my usual cursory look at the associated parts as usual but not hard enough I suspect. Anyway all back together but still have this tiny leak. Very frustrating. So lets get out the 2 spares I have and do a dye pen check. Results below. Moral of the story................. look beyond the obvious and check EVERYTHING. Seems porosity isn't unheard of on these supports and right in the oring groove. Ciao

The best, read "sweetest" version of the 2 valve rubber driven Ducati twins was the 600 Pantah. It revved safely to 12000 rpm was silky smooth and didn't stress its engine cases. It was the perfect balance for that particular design. It won multiple F2 world Championships with very little modifications. Pistons and barrels, cams, 42mm Delortos, valves, and porting and you have a stone reliable race motor that won world titles. Even the rods were standard items, polished, on the factory engines. Ciao

Well the upside to that is its cheap and easy for you to scratch that itch:) Ciao