Gritman

Well, it was a very good idea to park the fuelling til the bike was mechanically and dynamically ok. Had I tried to get my head around all this at the beginning, I'd never have started the project, be richer and spending more time in the saddle - but not on a fabulous beast, just another showroom pony! Think I prefer it this way, although I have been tempted by the Tuono Factory R.... My strategy from here is modest. Firstly, I want to correct the misfire/fluffiness at certain throttle openings. If this is successful, an AFR meter is next so that I can analyse the ratio across the rev range. With this info (and all the expertise gained of course ) I can start to develop a proper map. The tables for the Daytona/Centauro you supplied Meinhof will be useful, but I do not expect to just transfer values, rather they give an impression of where the v10 motor differs from the v11 - volumetric efficiency? It is enlightening to read discussions on AFR's and ignition timing. From the outset I was aware that the advance curve for the 2 engines would differ. I was not aware of the significance of the effect that the mixture can have. It does go some way to explaining the peaks and troughs in Tunerpros graph facility that did puzzle me somewhat.... I have much to learn though with this cuddly support network, how can I fail?!! btw the chisel has done its job and is back in its drawer Meinhof!

Ok I stand corrected! But for the purposes of making a quick improvement at lower throttle openings, its a good quick n dirty fix! I hadn't intended to make any further use of it, preferring to exhaust my neurones attempting a custom map.....like Meinolf says, why use CO trim when AFR can identify lean and rich spots..... However, I'm already confused. I sent off a couple of maps, and got a ruck of bins and xdfs back - one of which was for a V11 on a 15M. Trouble is, I don't know which bin file the xdf is derived from so I'm still on the launch pad until I get some clarification! (just received, thanks Bernd) I'm also looking at buying an AFR meter which may well save me money and time on trips to the dyno centre. Thing is, if you have a rough spot in your map, without a meter, you cannot tell if the adjustment should be up or down. With Tunerpro, I have been seeing some interesting data..... As I have maps for Centauro and Daytona (thanks again Bernd) which will be useful for comparison with the V11 map, if I load a 16M bin then view a 15M xdf, the data corrupts to either null or random values. It appears to correct itself if you load a consistent bin and xdf. I think I need to spend some more time on the relevant threads here to avoid p*ssing the experts off by asking questions they have already answered! Queries like; why are there separate maps for l & r cylinders and why are they different? As for acceleration enrichment tables and right cylinder offset tables, well, there is much to learn. Its 9/10ths perspiration, 1/10th inspiration!

This engine has been a sleeper all its life, with occasional moments of recognition/glory. Having owned, run and modified most large block Guzzi engines over some 20-odd years, I feel I have a pretty informed opinion of their characteristics and development, though I haven't ridden a tuned V11 lump -yet - I believe the V10 was the best motor to come out of Mandello. All Guzzi motors suffer terribly at the hands of the regulators and are pretty much strangled to death to get through emissions. Our work is to free up their airways and set them up with fuel efficiency as the priority instead of emissions, and liberate the beast! Having put about 40,000 miles on these engines I can assure you that reliability isn't an issue - if you replace/upgrade the oil pump! Being a low-volume production with early FI its no surprise that 'cogniscenti' weren't convinced. Early maps on Centauro/Daytona were pretty awful. Their premature demise has been the source of much speculation, but the head alloy seems to be a consistent factor from different sources. I gather that the recipe was misplaced and rather than try to replicate it, MG just shrugged and gave up! As far as performance goes, there is not a great deal in it if you go by the numbers from production machines. Daytona/Centauro - 95bhp, 88nM (RS 105bhp), V11 90bhp, 91nM. However, the V10 is quite tuneable and the numbers reflect this. You will all doubtless know of monsters converted to 1225 or even 1300 producing up to 150bhp at the wheel, though these beasts have considerable work done opening up the oil pickup and delivery channels, adding a high volume pump and a cooling oil spray to the underside of the pistons and beefing up the main bearings. Being an air-cooled motor, cooling is the thing that effectively limits power; if you exceed 100bhp/l you will need to seriously look at the cooling of any motor. For me the glory of the V10 is its performance from 5K upwards. Starting as a surge it becomes an unstoppable torrent, gaining momentum all the way to the red line. I'm not as young as I was and holding on to the thing at 7K is hard work even in the sub-100bhp state I'm currently at. I could always use a few more ponies, but my focus is on rideability rather than absolute power. Sticking my neck out here, but if MG had looked into oil cooling the heads (there is already a cooler on V10's) perhaps the alloy wouldn't be so critical, and emissions would have been easier to hit. Then perhaps MG could have a sports bike or two in their model range I have just sent some bin files to Guzzidiag for conversion so that the fuelling can be finally sorted so expect many queries from me in that thread!!

Well Good Morning Campers! A few things have happened since my last post - over 2 years ago! In the intervening period, the project has become a rolling project, mot'd and on the road each summer, though largely for shakedown testing and setting up. # Now its just about ready, goes like a rocket, and from an unbiased perspective, looks gorgeous. The paintwork has been changed - b&w was only a stopgap; stock silencers changed for shiny Mistral megas, stock hugger - which must rank as one of the ugliest bits of plastic ever, and it didnt keep muck off the shock - changed for a suzuki rm250 item; front mudguard changed... To use the huge void left by the airbox, I have relocated the coils, horns reg/rect and temp sensor there which allows a lot of wiring to be concealed. A new old stock internal pump tank was acquired further tidying up the under tank area. The rear subframe was extended 25mm rearwards and upwards to ensure that the triple clamp did not foul the tank, and the lines of the tank/seat unit remained unaffected. The bracket holding up the front of the tank was beefed up to make ensure no movement During the process, a lot of painting, plating and coating went on and the steering head, swingarm, wheel bearings were changed and a Roper plate installed; new clutch friction and driven plates installed with new springs after failing to secure a RAM item. I'm now getting to grips with Guzzidiag to sort out the last 2% though she is already well set up and quite a pleasure to ride. I do apologise for the chaotic nature of this diary. Its quite a fair reflection of my life!! If anyone has specific queries, I'll be pleased to address them.

So that is what the CO Trim is about..... I did wonder, but viewing it as a global enricher seems a pleasant concept. It does explain the improvement in my 2000rpm misfire (due to insufficient fuel). Thanks for the protocol on GuzziReader, which has behaved perfectly in downloading my base map. Just for fun, I uploaded the V11 titanium map and went out for a spin. These maps certainly work! My misfire has moved to 3-3500rpm and while urban use is quite docile, there is a distinct step in power delivery at 6000rpm . That map seems to favour WOT! Anywaysup, enough of the frivolity, I must now get down to developing my own map. I think if I get it as good as I can, then have a dyno run to get the AFR across the rev range to determine where adjustments are needed, that should be a reasonable way to proceed? I can now spend hours in the shed without getting grimy

Thanks Marty! I will give it a go as soon as I can get to the shed..... btw, zeroing the CO trim has noticeably improved urban use. Can't wait to get the fuelling fully sorted; its the last job on the project. ciao!

Yeah... If you feel inclined to retell the story of your project I'd read it. For example, I'd be curious to know what forks are on the bike and what it took to install them. Hey Scud, the forks are the stock White Power items off a Centauro. Yokes are from a 2000 V11 cos they have 4mm less offset, thus improving turn in. That did cause an issue with yokes striking the tank, but I will detail that elsewhere. Mudguard from Redmax Speedshop, an excellent builder and purveyor of quality performance bikes of style - if you are in the southwest UK - stays self built.

Thanks guys, I should update the thread I started a few years back - before I got distracted by other activities and events. You guys deserve it, this forum is a great resource and has helped in a major way for me to build the Guzzi I really really wanted. A special thank you to the members who have provided parts - from all around the world! - and good technical advice. Hopefully I can pass on some of the lessons I learned along the way.... She's been a road legal rolling project for 3 years now, but the last 2 seasons were setting up; now she is just about right and I'm looking to doing some serious miles. At the dyno shop, we did manage a baseline run and with a couple of fuelling flatspots and just not getting enough at WOT, she was putting out 92bhp. I reckon theres a couple more ponies hidden away in there somewhere. When I've got to grips with Guzzidiag and sorted the fuelling I will get a printout to post here. My first Guzzidiag excursion has been to follow docc's advice and zero the CO trim; took a ride today and i'm pleased to report a noticeable improvement in tractability in urban use. Thanks again docc! Theres always the 1225 conversion if I want to get really carried away, but somehow I doubt it, I already have trouble finding the space for her to stretch her legs and she feels nicely balanced now. Having declared a finished build i fully intend to resist the temptation for more upgrades and just enjoy the machine. I'm not disappointed! Yup, owned lots of Guzzis, and loved em all, but that 4v motor? No disrespect to the very fine 1064 2-valver in the V11, but the V10 motor has very different characteristics that I find impossible to ignore. Why MG stopped producing it and why they are not building MGS01's completely baffles me! Its the looks of the V11 that really stand out. the tank/seat unit lines and old school stance is just spot on. The build quality is excellent too. Ciao!

Hi Chaps, I have been following this thread for a while now, preparing to get to grips with this EFI malarkey. Some of you may recall my project... briefly, a V11 rolling chassis with a V10 motor, retaining the iaw15m rather than the iaw16m fitted to Centauros and Daytonas. Of course, this resulted in imperfect fuelling, particularly at smaller throttle openings, probably not helped by the ecu coming from a Quota - according to a faded paper sticker...... So anywaysup, software downloaded, cables acquired, laptop sparked up. For the purposes of this remapping, my bike masquerades as an MGS01 as it also runs the 15m and the pf09 tps - its kinda nice to get a little bit closer to that ideal! A couple of attempts saw successful connection with meaningful values returned for rpm, air and engine temp, co trim.... Warmed her up to 60+ and changed co trim from -26 to zero, as recommended by docc. I will take a ride tomorrow to see if I can tell the difference. Next on the task list is to take a copy of the base map for security before I bugger it all up personally. So, open Reader v0.67 to download and........... HELP! Here's a screen dump showing my problem; basically, the first drop down contains no entries and cloicking the read button brings up a file selection option from my laptop. So it seems, the reader in its current state can read files saved onto the laptop, but it is not clear how I can download the map on the ecu onto the laptop. I gather that once I have this bin file, I can send it to 'the team' who will convert it so that Tunerpro can read it and I can amend values. Am I missing something? Do I have to do anything to populate the first dropdown which I suspect will provide the missing functionality. I took the screen dump after switching the ignition off, which is why all the values are null....... Any help/advice greatly appreciated!

Well, its been a while since I posted here..... I built a house, aged several decades and shed loads of money. Brilliant! However, the Project survives and is just about complete. As I retained the iaw15m ecu, the fuelling wasn't quite right, particularly at small throttle openings making urban use a bit of a pain. My original plan was to re-use a PCIII that used to live on my Centauro, but a trip to the dyno to get it set up revealed that it was u/s and kept crashing the computer whenever changes were attempted. So Guzzidiag it is then. Today, the cables arrived from Lonelec and Guzzidiag, reader and writer were downloaded. A few hours reading the guzzidiag thread then connect up to the bike. A couple of headscratches to get the software to recognise the ecu and we are away!

Old Pulteney 12yo mmmmmmmm

At least its still in the family Jaap!

Hey! good work there Hubert, tho the swedish was harder than a guzzi wiring diagram to get my head around Both TPS start and end at similar voltages and are pretty close at any given throttle opening. I would expect that any minor variance can be dialled out with the fuelling map..... more reason for continued naive optimism. Its what the project needs at this stage! Also, have solved the niggle of the petcock fouling the TB - until today I wasn't aware that the electric version had been superseded by a manual item which has a shorter body, with the added advantage of being cheap; my second most favourite price! Phil is spared this pleasure as he has cheated by using an in-tank pump and filter. Waiting for a weekend of spanner twirlin.

Cheers Phil. Confirms my thoughts. A potentiometer ain't complex and the voltages forTB balance are pretty close, so either should be able to work. Interesting that Cliff reckons the stock v11 map is a good starting point. Perhaps I'll have a pop at guzzidiag and see what a mess I can make! Learning is half the fun! How's your build going?

Thanks for the feedback Luhbo, it won't be long before I'm a tarmac terrorist again . As for the matching up of efi components, its an issue I've parked until now.... there seem to be 3 options, one of which should work..... I hope! 1. remap the 15m using the Guzzidiag software developed by Paul Minnaert - thread elsewhere on the forum 2. Install a PCIII which will be easier to find someone to set it up with a decent map - I have one that used to live on my Centauro so that reduces the cost a bit. 3. Get a my15M from Cliff Jeffries who reckons he has a map to suit the V10 Option 1 would be the neatest, but I have no idea where to start with creating a map and I think I'd need a rolling road dyno and a technician who can read the software. Option 2 could be a quick soluton, but its all downstream processing and I gain yet another black box of tricks. I am tempted by option 3 which should be plug n play; 1 & 2 mean I've got to find - and pay for - a rolling road dyno session with a competent technician. This requires all the components to be compatible and talk to each other in the same language otherwise you just get a bill and a non-functional bike back - and you never know how good the technician is until you've paid up. Any guidance will be welcome. I'll start by balancing the TB's at the weekend. ciao

The end game is in sight Finally up together and running. After wiring in the TPS connector to suit the pf09 potentiometer, I couldn't resist a stab at the starter button... with a V11 map on the 15M and unbalanced TB's I thought it would be a long shot, but baby fired up with a few coughs, splutters and generally rough, but she ran! So now its onto the final tuning tweaks before the shakedown proper. If that all goes ok, I may get jiggy on the aesthetics. Or maybe just ride her on the clear winter days we are bound to enjoy here in sunny Dorset. A big thank you to Jaap and many other forum members who have provided parts, advice and encouragement during the project. And below is a pic of the current state of play with apologies to Helicopterjim who may have seen it before

Oban 12yo

All sounds like you'll be getting a really sweet ride Phil.... Details/pics of your cylinder head work would be interesting - including valve lifter upgrades - not come across that mod before ciao for now

Phil, you may also wish to check clearance between the TPS and the fuel pressure regulator. I had to get 5mm milled off the threaded portion of the regulator to get sufficient room to clear the TPS and fit the fuel return hose.... Pics of your work would be nice... are you leaving the motor stock? I've fitted a Roper plate, and the oil pump upgrade comes well recommended. I'm also fortunate to have another V10 motor which I may tweak a bit for track use when I run out of things to do.

Yep, 30mm is about right Phil. Photos of my riser below..... Goodness, look at that dust! Hope the pics are ok, essentially a pair of offset brackets held together by a piece of threaded welded tubing that accepts the stock tanks mount rubbers.....

Thanks Guys, I need the encouragement! V observant Jim, the front end is mostly Centauro but retains the V11 triple clamps as the offset is 4mm less thereby reducing the wheelbase by same amount.Still not convinced the Centy mudguard is ideal, but I'll deal with that one later. Just hope I've not overdone it and end up with one of them twitchy monsters that wants to kill you~!And yes Czakky, having run a Centauro for 4 years and fallen in love with the motor, it defeats me why they never put it in the V11, so I had to do it myself - like Jaap and others! Still finishing the house so progress isn't gonna be as fast as I'd like, but the hard work is done. I have retained the 15M ecu and will have to remap it as per Paul Minnaerts work. That should be a steep learning curve for me Anywaysup, at least I'm gettin somewhwere.

Good work Sam. Centauros are an waaaay undervalued and threatened species due to their popularity with specials builders (guilty as charged). Strangely I got my motor from moto corsa too. Useful chaps eh? Seeing as we are on a similar build curve, howsabout a race to complete? Competition always motivates!

Well its been longer than I'd thought, but back to the build now and hoping for rapid progress. Pic is from a dry assembly to check routings/fixings. Still a few bits to iron out but not too far off eh?

2015 eh? Should have finished building mine by then! Sounds just the ticket though - if they put it in a light chassis. Fingers crossed. I'd part with money for that.

top tip for anyone slotting a v10 motor in a v11 - don't buy new oil cooler hoses, just turn them around so the elbow goes to the cooler and the banjo to the engine feed/return ports. OK, so I'm not that bright, but it only took me an hour of playing around to find out - once I'd got me bike onto the premises! most dejected that the weather is soooooo good and I have no guzzi to ride.