pete roper
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Posts posted by pete roper
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Try giving Mike at MPH in Houston a bell.
281 647 6557
Say Hi from me! 👍
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Oh, OK, it's some of that *Magic* oil that people rave about. Sorry, my mistake carry on. I use oil that doesn't rely on gimmicks but that's me. I'm pretty dumb....
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Once you've pulled the outer race out you'll be able to see clearly enough.
Upper pic in doc's post the gear oil looks horribly contaminated.
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Keith, I too have not heard of a RM or Coppa Italia flywheel shitting the bed. While this is a good thing I don't know if it is really relevant. What do the part #'s say?
I still think all the factory single platers are the work of the devil! I'd rather stick with the lightest version of the twin plater, but that's me.....
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With any CARC bike there are a few things you should be aware of that will need addressing if they haven't been already, and they rarely have.
Most critically on the 2V models are the swingarm bearings and shock linkage bearings which are rarely, if ever, greased properly ex-factory. By now, sixteen years on in the case of any 2V bike, the bearings will be a mass of rust unless the bike has only ever been ridden in the dry in somewhere like Arizona!
While you're fixing that up is also the ideal time to dribble a tiny bit of Loctite 'Super wick-in' down onto the threads of the pinion nut in the bevelbox which will help prevent it loosening if the bearings loose their preload.
The third and final thing which isn't vital but is wise is replacing the sump spacer gasket that goes between the spacer and the block with one of the thicker aftermarket gaskets as the factory ones have a habit of blowing out around the front delivery gallery diminishing oil pressure and causing big end damage. This is more prevalent on 8V's but can happen on 2V engines as well.
The actual tuning of a W5AM Guzzi has been covered here before so I won't repeat it but it is vital that nobody messes with the throttlebodies unless they are fully conversant with how the system works. If you do a search for my vids on YouTube I've actually done an explanatory video on CARC bike throttlebodies which you may find useful. The TB's in the vid are a set of 50mm ones off an 8V but exactly the same principles apply to she smaller units used on the 2V bikes.
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Brad’s offer is very good and the way I’d go. In fact I did with Chuck’s old Scura when I bought it.
I’d get the pressure plate and ring gear ground and fit new friction plates and intermediate and you’ll never have to look at it again.
Brad? Do you have the thrust cup for it as well?
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1 hour ago, audiomick said:
Before I got onto the idea of a V11 Le Mans, I was thinking about CARC bikes, maybe.
One of the things that pushed me towards the V11 Le Mans was the clip-ons, a must have during my formative years. Another was the frame mounted half fairing.
One thing that put me off the CARC models a bit was part number six here:
the rubber boot around the bit that sticks up out of the final drive. Those words "nicht lieferbar" mean "not available". I gather the boot can't be had anywhere, even if you offer to sell your granny for it. Someone in another forum described how he botched up a solution, which would probably be possible and stay good for a while. Still, not being able to get a part like that, small but crucial, does make me stop and think.
There are a whole load of CARC bits that are going NLA. The double conrod shock linkage has just gone which is a huge pain as it means we're going to have to start rebuilding them and the parts are almost as pricey as the whole unit was!
As for the reactive arm boot? I'm hoping to be getting some made soon.
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Whichever one you buy it's important to remember that you are buying machines long out of production and a lot of parts are getting increasingly hard to source. Virtually anything cosmetic and you're at the mercy of the Bay of Fleas and the internet boards like this one for generosity from hoarders and sundry nut cases.
All four machines you mention were comparatively low number production runs but the CARC series machines at least have a lot of interchangeability with other models in the cosmetic parts, the LeMans particularly is a nightmare to get fairing parts for and so few Balabios were made I'd think that most bits like fairing supports and the like are probably hand carved from unicorn ivory!
Actual performance wise there isn't a lot in it but handling, if correctly set up, will come with the V11's and Griso sharing equal, (Although different.) top billing and the 1200 Sport lagging behind simply because it's 'Conventional' Marzocchi forks are pretty pedestrian for the era they were made in but having said that the wonderful Showas on the Griso need re-springing and re-valving to be anywhere near their best.
If you go in with your eyes wide open all four can be fine steeds. The CARC bikes will by this point need their swingarm bearings and shock linkage replacing/rebuilding and it is vital that any CARC bike you look at not have had it's throttlebodies screwed about with by a shaved ape. They are incredibly simple to tune but if the tuning sequence isn't followed and someone messes about with the linkage rod or the throttle stop screw you are going to be in a world of pain!
From the point of view of which is best? Don't ask me. I own three Grisos so I'm a lost cause. They are all fine machines though.
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here's a pic of what my plate was doing when I swapped gearboxes on my Griso. It was a 2012 motive unit. It was getting ready for the spring to jump ship.
Sorry, still can't work out how to post up pics on this site from my iPad.
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Yup, that's a bit of the anti-rattle/cush spring. With a bit of luck you got it before it can do much damage and you'll get away with just a plate.
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Just now, docc said:
My impression has always been that the original V11 steel flywheel (twin plate clutch) was an OEM "lightened" version.
Is the standard V11 flywheel actually lighter than previous 5 speeder flywheels?
Oh yes. A shittonne lighter. The flywheels and on later models the ring gears have got a lot lighter over the years. The early loops had a flywheel that actually had its own gravitational pull and light would bend going past it! It was vast, as was the ring gear. With the advent of the V7 Sport and 850T it was lightened considerably but it was still huge. That flywheel was what was used in all the T series bikes, the SP, Mille GT, Californias etc. The ring gear was also thinner. Then came the LeMans series and this was lighter again but was still a 'Full Circle' flywheel and used the same ring gear as the 'T' models. After this, with the advent of camshaft triggered ignition there was no longer the need for a full circle flywheel with timing marks so the Daytona and then the Sport 'C' and Centauro got the relieved steel flywheel, (As shown above while I was writing this.). The ring gear was also lightened once again and this assembly remained pretty much identical throughout the entire V11 series and the 2 valve per cylinder CARC bikes that superseded them. The one real oddball was the Sport 'C'. This has its own *Special* flywheel with triggering knobs on its perimeter as they use a weird twin trigger system for their ignition.
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23 minutes ago, footgoose said:
Yes it can docc. What I wonder is if RAM were making a version of the current (steel) lightened clutch assembly before Guzzi got the idea to have them produce the Aluminum flywheel single plate assembly for their 'specials.' So,... was it a Guzzi design in the beginning for the RM? .. and subsequently passed down to Scura and Tenni? Or a RAM design at the bequest of MG? or ...once it proved weak and discontinued through the line, did RAM decide to make it better?
The lightened flywheel/clutch assembly introduced as oem in the V11 range was a good idea, but a failure.
The tried and true reliable dual plate kit is the way to go for replacement ... says the Guzzisti in me. The smart me says avoid the 'presumed experiment' oem alm kit altogether. It's not worth the worry. The adventure me -thankfully- went with the later RAM single. And I think it fits closer to intended oem spec for the purest in me. It's too bad this assembly was not used throughout the spine line.
I can tell you that the RAM single plate assembly has been around since the 1980's. It was a fairly popular mod back in the day. It had a couple of problems. One was the fact that people used to buy the 'Race' version which had a sintered bronze friction material. Now this was all well and good in that it had good take-up and feel but it also wore very fast! Like in a road bike being ridden in a 'Sportsman's-like' manner you'd get 2,000 miles out of a plate if you were lucky! You cold also get an organic plate but it wasn't called 'Race' so knobs didn't buy it but it lasted ages and was a happy thing. I honestly can't remember whether those early flywheels were steel or aluminium? They were light though.
I have no idea what the story was with the Scura etc. flywheels and clutch but they were built by RAM. My WAG is that Guzzi went to them and said they wanted some clutches but specified their own materials and thought they were being very clever by specifying aluminium for the flywheel and it turned out to be another of those 'Big wooly ears' bits of engineering that the in-house engineers used to throw out from time to time. Anywhichway it was a shitfight and remains so to this day!
Lightening the flywheel used to be one of the 'Holy Grails' back in the Tonti days. Anyone who was building a hot-rod wanted the lightest set up they could find. I did it myself! In the end my 891 short stroke thing I built used the twin plater but with an alloy flywheel and very seriously lightened ring gear. It probably want quite as light as a RAM unit but it was extremely durable.
After that project though I learnt to appreciate the wonders of a heavier flywheel in most road going situations. In fact in my old SP which had a mildly warmed over 950 Mid-valve motor in it I actually used an Eldorado flywheel, the heaviest one Guzzi ever made! It was a hoot to ride! Even my current *Fast* 8V Griso has a Cali 14 clutch in it that is heavier than the earlier 1200 clutch assemblies. It's a better bike for it.
If I had a V11 with a single plater I'd just go twin plate with an alloy flywheel again. It worked well.
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With the engine off have a bit of a fish about through the slot at the bottom of the bell housing with a magnet on a stick. You could have a poke about through the starter portal too. If the anti rattle springs jump ship they soon get smashed up and you usually get bits of them in the bottom of the bell housing. There also tends to be 'Pock marking' of the alloy on both the back of the crankcase and front of the gearbox caused by the bits of frag being flung around vigorously by the spinning flywheel.
Victor Mattei from VA somewhere is doing a clutch and engine swap on his Stelvio right now and documenting it on ADV. lots of pics of the engine coming out and the damage in his clutch. Starts about here.....
https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/moto-guzzi-stelvio-merged-threadfest.113158/page-3283
I've had a fair bit of input encouraging him and supplied the clutch so I have a dog in this particular fight!
Oh, and blowing up that picture of the starter motor mounting hole as far as I can does seem to show some minor 'Pock marking' in the alloy of the case so it may well be that you've had a clutch explody failure.
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There was a bad batch of clutch plates in 2012 and I've heard of a 2013 bike having the problem too so let's not rule out the clutch entirely. I'll come back to that though.
Firstly, all the CARC bikes and to a lesser extent the V11's are murder on their clutch fluid. It's for this reason that we change it at every 10,000km service or yearly, whichever comes first. If your fluid hasn't been changed regularly it may just be that the bore and seals of your master cylinder are rooted. If it's just the seals it can be rebuilt but if the bore is damaged it will need sleeving and finding somewhere to do that nowadays is getting hard, at least it is here. If that isn't a possibility new M/C's are still available but they're spendy! An alternative, more expensive but with the benefit of a lighter pull, is to go to a 16mm radial master. You'll probably need to change the hose to the slave though.
Another, much cheaper, possibility is that the actuating plunger on the clutch lever has come loose and backed off. How much travel is there in the lever before you feel the piston in the master cylinder start to move? If you look at the lever you will see there is a barrel with a plunger coming out of it that actually goes into the back of the master cylinder to press on and operate the piston. That plunger is threaded and screwed into the little barrel in the lever and is usually loctited in place but it's real locating mechanism is a tiny 1.5mm hex grub screw threaded into the underside of the barrel that locks it in place.
Now it's not uncommon for the grub screw to loosen or fail to properly locate the plunger so, if the Loctite fails, the plunger can move in the threads in the barrel and usually it winds out, away from the piston. When this happens more and more of the travel of the lever is used taking up the *Space* between the plunger and the piston before the piston itself starts moving, pressurising the line and lifting the clutch. When it winds out far enough there is no longer sufficient lift for the clutch to engage so the bike will 'Creep' in gear when halted and gear changing becomes difficult.
If that is the problem the cure is simple. Remove the lever, loosen the grub screw in the barrel, (Use a VERY good Allen key or you'll round out the hex in the screw.) then wind the plunger out of the barrel a bit. The aim is to have only the tiniest bit of clearance 0.25-0.75mm or 10 to 25 thou between the end of the plunger and the piston of the master cylinder while the lever is at rest but the piston has to be able to fully return to the end of its travel to open the priming port to the reservoir. If it can't then the system becomes 'Closed' and as the fluid expands as it heats up it has no way to return to the reservoir so it starts lifting the clutch leading to slippage under load. It takes a bit of faffing about and trial and error but once you've got the length right the clutch should both work without dragging and not slip under load when hot. Once it's working OK nip up the grub screw to prevent the plunger from moving again. Although the plunger does have a slot for a flat bladed screwdriver in the back to allow adjustment it is usually full of Loctite so what I tend to do is simply hold the plunger in soft jaws in a vice and turn it by using the clutch lever as a lever to turn the barrel on it. If it's very tight? Heat the barrel to soften the Loctite with a propane torch, (Carefully obviously!).
Of course if none of these things help then yes, you will have to go in and investigate the clutch. The *Usual* failure on the bad batch of plates is that the cush/anti rattle springs in the centre of the plate destroy their seats in the hub and eventually make a break for freedom. When this happens though the result is usually catastrophic and very, very noisy! What happens and what you have to do about it was well documented on Wildguzzi a few years ago in a thread titled 'Horrors in my bellhousing' by a bloke called Sean in British Columbia. Lots of pics to help too.
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I can give you advice and what will probably be a cheap fix for this, if you're lucky. If you're not so lucky I can give you a 'Cheaper than clutch replacement' fix. Gimme a few hours though because I'm on holidays at the beach and I need to go to bed and sleep first.
pete
PS. What year model Stelvio?
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Good price. I wouldn't use the Surflex friction plates though and you'd need to swap the input shaft hub n the gearbox to fit it but still a much safer bet than a single plate unit with the fracture prone flywheel.
Oh, and the other friction plate is there, it's just behind/under the intermediate plate. You can see it's splines.
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25 minutes ago, cash1000 said:
Vince had no problem dismantling the gearbox
Unfortunalty he found a bearing had failed
Concern is has debris from bearing damaged other bearings
Need to decide whether I get Vince to rebuild gearbox or find a 2nd hand box
Odd failure. I'd replace the bearing and see what happens. Make sure everything is cleaned out thoroughly and check the other bearings in the box.
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14 hours ago, docc said:
Same here, "Pete Roper cannot receive messages."
Perhaps your inbox has reached capacity, Pete? Time to delete off the older ones?
Sorry, yes. My fault. I've emptied my mailbox
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That was one of Mark at Guzzi Classics little jokes.
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39 minutes ago, cash1000 said:
Hi Pete Roper
How do I contact you?
Your profile is set to not receive personnel messages
Really? That's weird. I get PM'd all the time.
No matter email me at.
motomoda
dot
roper
@
gmail
dot
com
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Once you have this thing on the floor or bench. Make sure it's the box by turning both the input and output shafts, in all gears.
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With the driveshaft? It is aligned correctly isn't it? While a misaligned driveshaft itself won't cause the wheel to lock the forces imposed by the trunnions not being correctly aligned is certainly enough to bust stuff up.
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Pop it in a box and send it to us if it is the gearbox. It shouldn't cost a huge amount and we have all the necessary tools.
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26 minutes ago, audiomick said:
Hi Pete.
I'm not in any way questioning your knowledge and experience. From what I've read here, both seem to be plentiful.
But I can't follow the logic. Cash wrote
If the flywheel is buggering up the works, but the box was really in neutral, shouldn't he have been able to turn the output shaft?
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing after my first post. It's all a bit moot though. The box is going to have to come out anyway so if when it's pulled out both clutch and flywheel are good then it's essentially got to be internal to the box doesn't it?
Perhaps the nuts on the end of the shafts have loosened/spun off? That was the issue with the last V11 box I was buggering about with.
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Independent Guzzi Mechanic - Northeast/Mid-Atlantic Area of the USA
in 24/7 V11
Posted
The problem I see with the box out of Germany is that it's another one from the same, failure prone, run isn't it? That would seem like playing Russian roulette with two of the chambers loaded rather than one! You surely don't want to be back at square one in a few months if the second box shits itself!
As to the factory assembling the gearboxes so they'll be better than one built by a skilled mechanic? Are you mad? The factory uses the cheapest labour possible and assembly is rote learnt without a lot of knowledge or understanding. There is a lot of 'Monkey see, monkey do' on an assembly room floor believe me!
The other problem will be finding a second hand box. I was looking a few weeks ago for a fellow mechanic in Victoria and V11 gearboxes seem to be like rocking horse shit! Finding one that is fresh and unproblematic could well be a real issue.
If it were mine I'd be stripping it and inspecting for further damage before making the final decision. As long as the pinions are ok and the shafts are straight I'd be rebuilding it. It's not a big job.