pete roper

Yup, that is itching at the back of my mind too. But if the probe is reading lean in the midrange where it obviously is lean why would it give a false reading right at the top? I would of thought with the throughput of gas being higher a bung reading is LESS likely at the top but I'm happy to be convinced otherwise. Pete

It's the baffling in the muffler itself that is important. Pipe length and diameter, (And any taper in the overall design.) that will control the accoustic tuning of the pipe. What I'm convinced is neccesary is actually nothing more than a glorified 'Blockage' to slow down the egress of the spent gasses. "But surely," people will say "You want the gasses out?" and yes, you do but also remember that as they exit the system they are cooling rapidly and conracting so a longer time within the pipe means less volume of gas to flow. Running substantial overlap on the cams with a very narrow included valve angle means that there is a LOT of opportunity for new mixture to exit the exhaust valves on overlap and that is exactly what it will do if it is encouraged to do so. Because the speed of sound is a constant you can only rely on the percussive wave moving back from the end of the exhaust to work to this end over a quite narrow rev range. So trying to use what many describe as 'Back Pressure' but I preffer to think of as a restriction, within the entirety of the exhaust system from valve head to the end of the muffler will have a far greater ability to discourage the expulsion of fresh charge than relying on accoustics alone. Because of the amounts of gas being expelled at different RPM and loadings the restriction within the pipe will also vary due to the density of the gasses being expelled varied by heat.While I'm not certain I would think that this would mean that you could expect a more usefull result over a wider range than you would get relying on percussive tuning alone. I may be completely wrong. But working on those principles the results I'm seeing make sense, to me at least. It is my belief that the engine is timed and it's ability to breathe is designed to work with a restrictive exhaust because that is what is demanded by modern emissions legislation covering both noise and pollutants. While I'm sure you can build a map to make the engine produce bulk power up top I'm convinced that to completely release its full 'Potential' it would need not only a new map but completely new valve timing to make it behave like an 'Old School' hot-rod. I'm sure that someone will, eventually, go down that path and hopefully the results will be spectacular and please them. My aim in everything I do is to maximise the, if you like, 'Base' potential of the machine by exploiting its strengths and minimising its weaknesses WITHOUT embarking on a remanufacturing programme that could cost tens of thousands of dollars. I also think that in this day and age there is no reason for loud, open, antisocial pipes. Especially if we live, as most of us do, in fairly urbanized environments where our actions impact on our neigbors. You can have a bike that sounds GREAT to you, the rider, without having to deafen everybody in the next suburb and if, as in the case with this engine as it is timed now, making more noise also makes it LESS efficient?? Well, if you *have* to go down that path you're a wanker. Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of a well tuned 'Old School' motor but if I had to live with it every time I rode or, worse still, if I had some numb-nuts over the road who several times a day pulled his incredibly noisy and poorly-performing shitheap out and blasted off up the street making enough noise to wake the dead I too, like Mr & Mrs Average, would get the shits. While I'd just go over the road at 4.00AM and do the 'Dog Turd in a Burning Paper Bag' trick to the idiot in question Mr. & Mrs Average will simply vote for politicians who will enact ever more draconian legislation targeting internal combustion vehicles. None of us need that! Also there is more of a challenge in getting the best out of something that has been deliberately engineered in a counter-intuitive way. Every time you have a win it's like you can give yourself an elephant stamp because you've 'Beaten the System'. I know it's puerile but I still enjoy doing that Pete

Get a proper dB killer built for your pipe and I betcha after you've uploaded the #68 map made sure the TPS is set correctly, ballanced the TB's and re-set the factory parameters the thing'll run like a champ. The biggest issue with yours currently is that the pipe isn't restrictive enough. I'm convinced that the restriction in the pipe is not only beneficial but neccessary as if it isn't there a goodly chunk of the fresh charge escapes into the pipe, it's another contributory factor to the awful fuel consumption you get with an open, un-baffled pipe. The camming is specifically designed to work with restrictions in the exhaust pipe, even if you stick a PCV/AT on it I'll bet you a bus load of Brazilian swimsuit models it'll still run better with a quieter, more restrictive exhaust. There you go! Aquartet of slappery swimsuit models. One of 'em's bound to be a Brazilian Pete

No, at full throttle the fueling is crap. At partial throttle and in the midrange it actually feels pretty good but I'll need to actually do some testing on that. On the road in any of the *Normal* riding areas it's very good though and now at low RPM, light throttle there is none of the horrid chattering and banging in the driveline there was before it'll just cruie on a whiff of throttle and pull from there with no problems which is really nice!!!! Pete

The dyno print-outs were done for retards who need to know how fast their bikes are. Next time I'll be booking some time to experiment with other areas besides full noise. At the moment it feels like its fuelling very well at mid-RPM/ partial throttle but I need more time to investigate. When I get the PCV and AT fited to my US bike I'll be able to do some meore serious playing but without cam changes I'd think 110 to 115 should be easily achievable. It's not what I'm really interested in though, what I really want is correct fuelling in the midrange to boost torque there as that is what is useful on a ROAD bike. Especially one as heavy and which has as long a wheelbase as a Griso. Pete

Off to the Dyno this morning. Note that it makes more power with the dB killer in than it does with it out, even though its still very rich up the top end. this was with very minor mods, (Termi pipe, drilled airbox and #68 factory map upload.) There will be more to come with a PCV/Autotune but it furels up very nicely in the midrange on part throttle and that is where most of us do our riding. I plan to book some more time when Bett isn't pushed for time and see if I can get more AFR info at partial throttle and different loadings. Pete

First let me put a few disclaimers into this message. Most of the experimentation has been carried out on one bike, mine and some of my observations are subjective and based on my own prejudices, likes and dislikes. I am NOT claiming that this is any sort of 'Definitive Guide' simply that the laws of physics and engineering will tend to agree with my observations and finding. Secondly this is not a guide on how to radically improve the fuelling or performance of your bike. It is simply the results of a series of experiments I've carried out over the last year and a half on my bike and a couple of others belonging to customers. If you wish to radically alter the performance of your machine you will need to have some means of re-mapping the ECU. There are several options available and Todd Eagan's PCV-Autotune package certainly seems to be the most highly developed and dedicated currently available. Many people though can't or are unwilling or unable to justify the expense of such a unit and what I am trying to do here is to just offer some advice on how to get the best from your 'stock' machine with nothing more than basic modifications such as an aftermarket pipe and alterations to the airbox. When they are delivered from the factory I have generally found that the set-up of things like the TB ballance and TPS setting are pretty good which is different to the older pushrod CARC bikes with the W5AM controller which all seemed to come with the TPS set at 3.5 degrees or thereabouts rather than 4.6. Whether this was intentional or not I have no idea but the 8V seems to generally be set up accurately. That having been said it is important that before you embark on ANY changes you should ensure that the bike is correctly tuned and serviced. While this may seem obvious to most I know from bitter experience that many shops, either through laziness or ignorance simply don't perform the alloted tasks in the service schedule beyond changing the oil and perhaps the oil filter at the first service. If the bike ISN'T tuned and serviced fully nothing that is changed is going to be of much help. It will still be a munter and I'm sorry, that isn't the bike's fault! The very best first step you can take with an 8V Griso is to ensure it has the latest map upgrade from the factory in it. I believe the code for this is GRS8V068, I think the original was GRS8V054. Why the obtuse numbering? Don't ask me! This in itself makes a substantial difference to the running of the bike usually elliminating the rough running on a light throttle which I think is what people reffer to as 'surging' but since I've never experienced what I'd call 'Surging' I can't be sure. What in fact is happening is that at certain revs and light throttle openings the mixture goes critically lean so the cylinders don't fire every stroke. This uneven running results in a jerkiness and alot of lash in the driveline causing clattering and banging that anybody with 1/4 of a brain will realize can't be good for the bits that are bashing against each other. The good news is that if everything else is right on a stock bike the new bike not only deals with this very effectively but it also elliminates the power 'Step' at about 4,750-5,000RPM. This was the first thing that a customer I loaded it up on the other day said, the delivery was now linear with no pronounced dips or steps in the rev range. After this the next step in most peoples' 'to Do' list is a new pipe to get rid of the very bulky and heavy original and this, more than anything else, is a very important choice if you wish to get the best from your machine. To start off with I'll upset all the 'Loud Pipes Save Lives' brigade by telling you that if you put on anything remotely 'Open' or 'Un-baffled' it is going to run like a hairy goat. Even with the 068 map in an open pipe will simply lean the mixture out to a point where the engine looses its smoothness and begins to feel 'Harsh' and vibratory. To digress for a moment it is worth giving a short and simple explanation of why this is so critical. An engine is simply a self propelling air pump. Air is pushed into the cylinder where it is heated by burning fuel with the oxygen in the air. The heat expands the gas in the cylinder and this forces the piston down the bore turning the heat into mechanical work. To do this optimally the amount of air and fuel combined, the air/fuel ratio or AFR has to be at a certain proportion one to the other and this is governed by a number of factors that we don't need to delve in to but if it is wrong, or the further it is from correct the greater the chance of mechanical damage and the less useable energy is produced that can be turned into mechanical work. There are times when a poorly tuned engine will make MORE heat, the problem is that the heat won't be useable to turn into work. Before the days of computer controlled fuel injection fuel delivery was by carburetor and if changes were made to how an engine breathed it was fairly easy for your average 'everyman' to swap components in a carb and get the machine to produce the correct AFR, the controlling factors were manifold depression and gas velocity with atmospheric pressure as a constant. It was very much a two dimensional image, rather like a graph. With the advent of EFI many other factors could be taken into acount, hence the number of sensors feeding data to the ECU and the fuel delivery along with spark advance are all combined with several other factor to produce a far more three dimensional model of how the fuel is delivered. Hence it's description as a 'Map' because one of the commonest ways to show diagaramatically what is happening with the signals from the ECU is by means of a three dimensional relief image that looks for all the world like a relief map of a block of land. The thing is that to alter the parameters of the map, (Which in most ECU's is encrypted by the programmer.) one needs the tooling to break into what is loaded in there and alter it. Not many of us have the equipment, skills or knowledge to do it. I don't for one. I'm sure its an open book to some but lets be realistic. Most of us haven't got a clue! That is the reason why full tuning options, especially for small volume machines like Guzzis, are going to be expensive and it is also why I'm trying to explain how to get the best out of what we are stuck with with the factory map. **************************************************************************************************************************** While far from perfect if we accept that what we have is what we've got what we have to do is try and make any modifications we do either use the map to our advantage or, as a minimum, not do anything that will make things worse anywhere. The first thing I found was that when I fitted an open, unbaffled pipe the already lean nature of the map was exacerbated to the point where the bike not only behaved like a pig anywhere below 3,500 RPM, 8-stroking and clattering as well as backfiring, (Popping.) on the over-run to such a degree that it was actually tiring to ride, especially in traffic. Loading up the second, now superceeded, map from Guzzi helped a bit and at least made riding the bike fun again but it was still plagued by lean-ness and a general malaise of lean-ness exemplified by a harsh, vibratory feel to the whole machine, (You'll find me harking back to this description a lot!). Fitting a Fat-Duc O2 sensor fooler certainly helped this in the closed loop area of the map where it was most apparent but it wasn't without it's downside. At certain points the mixture would go critically rich and throw up the 'Service' icon on the dash. It didn't effect the running but it was a serious pain in the bum. The plugs never showed any signs of excessive lean-ness or richness but it was obviously going far enough outside the parrameters that the ECU would accept as 'Normal', at least the progarmme doesn't seem to have a 'Limp' home' mode when this happens as performance didn't seem unduly effected. More on the Fat-Duc later. Eventually I couldn't stand it any more. Much though I loved the look of the pipe the fact was it simply didn't work. I toyed with the idea of making a *proper* dB killer for it but at the end of the day I found out that I was owed some dosh by Moto International so I got them to send me the 'Factory' Termi pipe and slipped that on. Not being able to get the dB killer out of the Termi due to the loving attentions of the TSA at LA airport, (The pipe was bought over from the USA for me by a friend who was coming to borrow the Griso.) who had managed to dent and bend it a bit I ran it with it in and the difference was immediately noticeable and a huge improvement in terms of vibration dimunition and smoother running in the closed loop area. Shortly after my mate had returned I downloaded the latest upgrades from the factory to my axone and discovered that there was yet another map upgrade, the 068 map, available so I uploaded that and I have to say that obviously someone at the factory had finally taken the time to do what should of been done in the first place because the new map, combined with the restricted pipe transformed the way the bike behaved. Gone was the stuttery, 8 strokey ,gearbox-chattering, final drive hammering behavior at low load/rpm, gone was the step in the power delivery in the midrange, it was now pretty much seamless from 2,500 all the way through to the 'Going too fast' area! Knowing at this point that it was seemingly fuelling well everywhere I decided to tackle the one problem I knew it was hampered by severe richness at the top end. This is an almost universal feature of all motorbike and car maps and is probably a result of the litigious societies we live in. By richening them up unduly at the top end the can calim in any court that they have limited the engine's power because they could of made it make more! Daft but true! So it was out with the hole-saw and I very un-scientifically started cutting holes in the airbox lid. I continued to do so until it felt 'Right' and took the snorkel off the back of the box for good measure. In tat itteration it stillv fueled up well in the closed loop area and throughout the midrange regardless of throttle opening and would now pull to the rev limiter in top on the flat! Neither I or the Griso are lightweights! I was happy and it stayed there for several months. Last week for the first time I had a bog-stock 8V in for a head swap under warranty. It had never been serviced properly so i did that too and uploaded the 068 map. It ran very nicely so I decided it was about time I pulled off the Fat Duc to see if it was needed with the Termi. The straightforward answer is no. It made no difference. In fact it may even of run a bit better without it so it won't be going back on. Spurred on by this I decided to finally tackle the dB killer in the Termi. Not because I wanted more noise, I hate loud pipes, but just to see what would happen and how it would behave. getting it out was a pain and I had to damage the cat to do it which was a pain but i didn't harm it severely, just a 10mm hole for the long punch to go through to get to the back of the dB killer. Immediately the harshness, the popping on the over-run and a host of other silly little glitches showed up again. Nothing serious or un-nerving but irritating because I knew exactly how good it could be. Because I'd damaged the dB killer getting it out and I've given oit to a welder mate to 'remanufacture' I decided to see if restricting the intake side would have any effect so it was off with the drilled airbox lid and back on with the full lid and snorkel. Result? In open loop it was very nice. In closed loop it would sometimes hesitate when the throttle was cracked open and the popping on the over-run was still there. As soon as I get the repaired dB killer back it'll be going in and staying in. I'll see how she goes with the stock airbox lid but I reckon it's best itteration so far has been 068 map, restrictive pipe with dB killer in, no Fat Duc and drilled airbox lid. By far the most critical factor in ALL of the experiments has been the pipe fitted. As soon as the exhaust is un-baffled the mixture gores critically lean in most of the range and it is readily apparent by the way the bike feels and behaves. So there you have it. By all means you can fit an open pipe, if you enjoy being deafened, but your 'Stock-ish' bike will run like a pig. at the end of the day you CAN have a pipe as open as you like, but you WILL need to stump up for an expensive map modifier to make it work. A catalytic converter in the pipe will act as a baffle of sorts but it is obvious from me experience with mine that the cat alone is not baffling enough, to get the best of the stock maps to work to the best of its ability you NEED more restriction to the flow of gas through the engine and the critical point on an otherwise stock bike would seem to be the exhaust pipe. I have the full PCV/Autotune option but because I misunderstood how it worked I did't get the ECU re-flash so it wouldn't work on my Oz bike. What I'm going to do with it is take it over to the US and put it on and tune it with Todd's assistance on my US 8V. I have few doubts that with the full package it will run better than my Oz bike does but as I said at the beginning, this is not about striving for perfection, its about getting the best you can with what we have. So in summary. The GRS8V068 map is a must. An open pipe is a disaster. when choosing make sure that the pipe you purchase has a decent and fairly restrictive dB killer or your fuelling will go up the shit. Also your neigbors won't hate you as much! A Catalyser in and of itself isn't vital but since it keeps the nasties out of the air AND is beneficial to the running of the bike, why not? A Fat Duc seems to make no difference once the 068 map is in and not having it in line means you don't get the annoying 'Service' icon coming on intermittently. Drilling the airbox gives slight benefits, especially at the top end where you would expect it to but it increases noise for the pilot, (Although the induction honk is, if ear plugs are worn, pleasant rather than tiring and deafening.) but doing so is not something I would describe as a 'Must Do'. The nice thing is the factory airbox lids are dirt cheap. Buy one and experiment. if you don't like it? Slap the full lid and snorkel back on. The main bike used for these experiments was mine but i have also seen other bikes one stock, one with an Ago pipe with cat in but no dB killer and one with a truly horrid Staintune on it with a dB killer. The Ago equipped bike with the killer out behaved very, very similarly to my Termi equipped bike with the killer out and the stock lid on the airbox. The Staintune with the killer in made the Griso sound like an asthmatic, farting tortoise and its performance was roughly similar..The owner took mine for a flog and said that the Staintune would be on fleabay the next day and the stocker back on until he decided what else to buy! Just my experience, not gospel on tablets of stone but I hope it will help other owners in their decision making. Pete

No controller in dash, no fittings in loom. If using the Oxfords it is worth fitting them in a switched circuit as leaving them on by mistake will drain the battery to the point where the ECU recognises insufficient voltage and the bike won't start. They you're stuck! Pete

See what I mean? It's not just me. Queer as chocolate the lot of 'em!! Pete

Well I believe that they are a bunch of tiny willied dribbling vegetables, backward looking, ignorant, socially inadequate and quite possibly borderline educationally sub-normal. At least the ones who would be attracted by such an advert would be. HD probably make quite good bikes if that sort of bike is what you want but all this gasconading piffle is the living end. I mean *really*? And doesn't all that funny clothing strike you as just a little bit, well, y'know, Gay? Not that there's anything wrong with poofters two of my neigbors are chutney ferrets and a nicer pair of blokes you couldn't hope to meet. It just tends to 'Dress on the wrong side' if you're playing the Macho/Hetero thing. What would I know? I ride a Green Griso??? :-). Pete

No dealer in Chat. It's a long story filled with crookery. I just got lucky. Pete

Yup, your logic is impecable, doesn't mean they are right, but what woiuld I know, I'm just some bloke on the innerneck.... Pete

Another thing. reading this topic made me go and look at the parts site for the MGS-01 for the first time, (Yes, I know I'm weird but it has never really interested me a great deal.) What IS intersting though is they have deleted the dummy shaft completely and the belt sprocket shaft is a stubby little thing supported front and rear by roller bearings. Interestingly the Nuovo 8V also uses roller bearings to support the dummy shaft, strong as buggery! With the MGS I wonder if it was to allow more clearance for the rods? Would make sense. MGS-01 primary timing system. Nuovo 8V system Pete

We have a winner! If one wants 125RWHP it's very easy. Buy a GSXR, any one as long as its over 600cc. If you want a great Guzzi the last thing to spend the money on is the motor. Pete

If your importer says 10/40 semi synth is fine then maybe it is. The factory spec is a 10/60 full ester synth. When I see what the oil has to put up with, (Exhaust gasses exiting the port will be in excess of 1000*C if memory serves me right.) I'm not going to experiment. I'll stick with a full ester synth 10/70 that meets or exceeds the factory spec because I know that one of its most important characteristics is its ability to resist heat induced breakdown that occurs in mineral oils when they are over-taxed. Pete

OK, so I've got a warranty job coming in . A bloke with an 8V Griso with a pinhole pourosity in the head casting so it's a new head for him. This actually arrived within a fortnight, I was very impressed. while I had a new, clean, head in my grubby little mits I tought it would be a good time to have a squizz at it and find out what's what. Now we know from the publicity blurb that the engine is Air/Oil cooled and has two oil pumps, one for lubrication and one for cooling. Certainly when the motor is running large amounts of oil gush out of the camboxes and rockers and flow down overe the head to cool it. Run an 8V with the rocker cover off and you'll be drenched in oil in seconds! Having the head off the bike and clean though allows you to see some other much more important things. As you can see there is a gallery drilled through the casing by the exhaust valves. There is another one that comes in from the port side of the valves as well. Here you can see the two plugged drillings in the casting for the lower gallery in the bottom LH corner of the pic. You can see here the boss the gallery is drilled through in the casting. Looking at the underside, (Combustion side.) of the head you can see on the exhaust side, (Bottom of the picture.) the two drillings, presumably one a delivery and one a return, in the head. They are the two smaller holes adjacent to the stud holes. The longer slots are part of the oil return for the lubricant that gets flung around and pumped out of the cam boxes/rocker gear above the head. Another pic looking at the exhaust port showing the second drilling for the cooling oil feed. Looking at the valley side of the head you can see the lubrication oil feed. That is the hole at the front of the head in line with the exhaust stud. This feeds oil into the upper forward stud hole. bottom right in this pic, where it is fed up the stud and into the cam bearings in the cam box. as you can see from the pic that stud is doweled to the barrel to ensure that there is room for the oil to flow up to the bearings through the stud hole when the stud is centralised by the cam box casting. The important thing here though is that the exhaust valve seats and the head immediately surrounding them is being cooled by a high volume of oil that will be being pumped through the galleries surrounding the seats. The temperatures in tat area are going to be the highest in the motor and using an inferior oil is going to lead to all sorts of horrible varnishes and deposits building up in those, quite small, galleries. when the factory recommends a very expensive, high quality full ester synthetic for the 8V it's not so much for the tappets, (Although protection there is a bonus.) it is because of the oil's ability not to degrade at much higher temperatures than a 'Free Grandfather Clock with Every 4 Quarts' mineral oil from Wallyworld. Ignore the spec at your peril, and yes, any half way decent mechanic will be able to see the deposits and know what they are if the galleries do clog up and you drop the head off a valve. (BFG. This is particularly relevant to you as the 'tard who has been working on your bike has been swearing by Yak Fat. I'd drop it out yesterday, if not sooner, and put something better in!!!!) If I got one in with that sort of problem I'd be sending an oil sample off for analysis and if it wasn't the 'Good Oil'? Bye-Bye warranty! Pete

If you can get four DECENT forged pistons custom built for $600 I'd love to know where! Anything you're going to work hard to 9,000 RPM, (Have you worked out the MEPS?) I wouldn't want cast slugs in. Pete

Yup, if you want to rebuild it as regularly as you do a race bike. I imagine the oil pump is the same as the Centauro or Daytona, ie gear driven with an alloy gear. this can cause problems because the pumps aren't made very well and the centre to centre distances of the shaft aren't always accurate so sometimes the gears break up. What I do know is my little hot-rod revved to 10 and it ate big end bearings like it was going out of fashion! If I rode it hard I could kill a set in hours! Remember the MGS IS a race bike. Read the service schedule and you'll see that you are expected to throw away important things like rods quite regularly, big end shells in race situations would be expected to be binned after every meeting. I know people say "It wouldn't need that if it was on the road" and that is likely partially true but it is still BUILT as a race bike with all of the caveats that involves. why do you think there is NO warranty on an MGS-01? Pete

Nope. Different deck height. pete

Just ride it *normally*, don't lug it, don't thrash it. Find a nice steep hill and accelerate up it HARD in 3rd or 4th a couple of times in one gear higher than you usually would, (ie, big throttle from about 3,000RPM. Do that a couple of times to seat the rings and you're set. I find the 8V's close up their valve clearances radically in the first couple of thousand KM's but it would appear that the factory realized they would and have set the clearances wide to compensate but I always set them to spec and tell customers who are competent to check 'em and adjust at 800Km. Be aware that some Stelvios have had a problem with the front axle clamp breaking. The pinch bolts should only be done up with an inch poung torque wrench and Guzzi have been arguing the toss if the front wheel is removed by anyone other than an 'Orforized Sevice Agent'. Me? I think it's a Marzocchi casting/machining problem. Just be aware. Apart from that? as an ABS model it should have the latest map in it but check at 1st service. Get the suspension sorted to your liking and ride the piss out of it. Pete

To be honest I don't think the 'C' kit is worth the time, effort or bother. Most of the people I know who have changed on way or the other actually preffer the standard 'A' cams. If you want to mess about with the fueling I have a PCIII for a Hi-Cam that I aquired by a long and circuitous route that I won't bore you with. For reasons I also won't bore you with I'm selling it and donating the money to 'Medicienes sans frontiers' for the Haiti appeal. So far nobody has put their hand up so if you're interested make me an offer. It's brand new, still in the box and cost me about $3-400. I think the Hi-Cam PCIII is model specific so it won't work on the pushrod models, (I'm not sure of that though.) and they don't make 'em any more. pete

Biggest issue you're likely to have if you try to take it to 9,000 is that the oil pump will cavitate and you'll end up running big ends if you do it regularly. If you are looking for maximum grunt rather than outright HP which on any Guzzi is always the msot sensible way to go I'd think camming it up is the way to go, see if you can get a set of 'C' kit cams from somewhere then jump for a Tuneboy or some other suitably fully manipulatable ECU controller. IMHO Carillos are over-rated but if you're going for 9,000 aftermarket rods of some sort are worth it. If you do go for 'rillos I suggest that you check them for out of round on the big ends before you install. I've seen quite a few sets now that were out by up to a thou which is a bit sad really given their reputation. Nice people to dealw ith though. Pete

Ok Shit-fer-brains so you don't want my Axone then? Pete

Well there's this one And this one And then there's this one None of which are very arty Pete

I won't go into details but I've ended up with one of these which is of no use to me. I made my peace with the bloke who I ended up buying it for today. Life's too short to bear a grudge but I don't need it. Long and short of it is that it cost me somewhere between $300-400, I honestly can't remember now but if anybody wants it? Make me an offer and the money will be donated to Doctors Without Borders' for ther Haiti appeal. Never opened, still in the box. I'll take whatever anyone wants to offer. Pete