Scud

Well, to close out my potential trade... I rode the 1000 Supersport this morning and quite like it - both looks and performance. I find it attractive in person - better than the photos. Although this particular example had some nice features, there was too much wrong and it would become a big project for me to get it to the condition I would want it. So it won't be coming home. Besides that, I really want an ADV bike anyway.

All in good fun. You can help me ride 'em too - if you get bored of winter and feel like traveling. And Pierre Terblanche. He gets criticized for some designs... but he also gave Ducati the MH900E, the Sport Classics (including the gorgeous Paul Smart version) and the Hypermotard.

Glad you are still digging the 2-stroke. And yes, there are many good used bikes available for low prices. But this thread started off looking at V11 Sport Rivals. I wouldn't have the Ducati instead of a V11, only next to a V11. But I can think of some local roads where I would prefer a Duck over a Goose.

Glad you're OK. It's rare that we have a cause to celebrate the slow-moving traffic in LA. Have you been messing with the adjuster screw on the brake lever - the one that pushes into the master cylinder? If you've removed too much freeplay by turning the screw in, it can stop fluid from returning. I did this on my clutch and had exactly the same symptoms at the lever - but the clutch just slips when that happens so it is only annoying, not dangerous like the brakes. At a minimum, you should flush the front brake system. It might be time to rebuild the calipers or master cylinder too. Sometimes a brake line can deteriorate on the inside. You might also check if the rotors are warped. If you want to be super-sure, you can rebuild or replace everything in the front brake system pretty affordably (most expensive is new rotors if needed).

Well, Brer Rabbit, I'd hate to have to throw you into the briar patch. Translation: Thanks, I will gladly send the preselector to you.

Hmm... the Ducati 1000 Supersport is a polarizing motorcycle. Lucky Phil has a yellow one and likes it. It think it's a good looking bike, but not as good looking as several others. I bought a Sport 1000 when they came out. I enjoyed it for a while, but they are way overpriced and collectible now. It had the same motor (1000DS) as the Supersport and it was plenty fast for my riding style. It was miserable as a commuter but close to perfect in the mountains. I assume the 1000 Supersport would be an even worse commuter, and potentially even more fun in the mountains. I wasn't out shopping for a Ducati; this just surfaced as a potentially interesting trade when somebody asked if I would sell my LeMans. I was thinking I might like to try riding the track and this could be a good bike to do it on - and still be useable on the street.

OK, I'll hold... and I'll try to get a more precise measurement of spring travel. It's hard to see the exact angles of the springs when they are installed, so I assumed a right angle for the short arm. As I calculated on the last page, a little less than 2.5 coils translates into more pressure (which I've been calling preload, even though that's probably not the right term). Using the variables you provided, I can find the degrees of travel with the thinner wire to produce the same pressure as the original spring (in the at-rest position). That works out to an 886.5 degree coil (just 13.5 degrees less than 2.5 coils). What's that funny quote about being a member of Moto Guzzi's post-production R&D program?

Got it - went back to edit the instruction above.

I'm going to send a new spring for reference. Are you suggesting something different than the original for that end? If so, can you describe it more clearly?

Yeah, they'll make one or two springs, for about the same price as 50. Gotta pay for set-up. I'll call the guy again tomorrow and share our final specs: Make it like the sample (including same inside diameter of coil), but with the following differences: Use .071" piano wire (I'll ask what the "spec" is) Make the coil 895 degrees, instead of 540 90-degree bend on short arm should have bend radius of 2x wire diameter I can have them all shipped to me, and then send you a bunch of springs along with the preselector, which you can torture. Edit - to include point # 3 per Chuck

I think I have a spare rear master cylinder with the switch. If you post a more complete list I will go check my stash.

Sounds worth trying. I don't think that the lever needs much pressure at all to be pushed back into position. I'd be willing to invest $300 from my Play-Pal account on 50 springs. Fine-tuning idea follows: I estimated travel for downshifts at 38 degrees. The extra coil gives us 48 degrees range - but carries the potential risk of a too-weak spring. What if we use half of the 10-degree excess available travel for preload? 2.5 coils is 900 degrees. Therefore, 895 degrees would be 2.48 coils. I reckon that would give 5 x 1.8 inch/lbs as pre-load to compensate for the weaker, thinner wire. Does that make sense - or is that too small of a difference to mean anything? The at-rest spring would appear a little more open - the opposite of the fatigued spring in your earlier picture, which is 12 degrees closed. If I understand this correctly, these are the pressures applied by the two springs when installed: Stock (1.5 coils): 2.9 in/lb x 22 degrees = 63.8 in/lb Thinner (2.5 coils): 1.8 in/lb x 22 degrees = 39.6 in/lb We could get to 48.6 in/lb with 895 degrees of coil (5 degrees extra preload), or to 57.6 in/lb with 890 degrees (10 degrees extra preload) Gosh, this is more analysis than I signed up for... but I want a spring that won't break.

Those Termis look exactly like the Moto Guzzi Kit Racing Titanium exhaust - even the hangers and rubber straps look the same. Same brakes as V11 too (but 100 pounds less bike to stop).

I've confirmed the boss size on mine. My experience opening transmissions is limited to the V11. Here's a link to parts diagram of a Griso transmission. Totally different. http://www.harpermoto.com/parts-by-motorcycle/2000-up-moto-guzzi-motorcycles/griso-v-ie-1100-2005-2008/gear-box-selector-en-griso-ie-1100.html

So... what about the 2004/2005 Ducati 1000 Supersport? I am contemplating a trade of my red LeMans for this bike: It's an air-cooled V-Twin that makes only about 85 HP. Styling and suspension obviously more race-oriented than the V11 LeMans. But it's one of the last air-cooled, dry-clutch Ducatis. Sort of the end of an era like the V11 is to Moto Guzzi. This bike would have been in showrooms at the same time as the very last V11s and I think priced similarly at the time. They can be had for about the same (or less) than an Ohlins-equipped V11.

Thanks Chuck - that's how my pre-emptive replacements looked too. It seems that one potential solution is to stay with the existing thickness, but manufacture it so it looks like that - slightly more than 1.5 coils. That would keep the downshift travel under the limit you calculated. If the current downshift travel is 38, and the maximum safe travel is 30.48, increasing the coil length by 12 degrees would cut the downshift travel to 26 degrees. The fatigued springs work perfectly, until they break. There are no symptoms or advance warning. Another is to use thinner wire and add a coil - but maybe we could add 7/8ths of a coil or something like that. My thinking is that if the thinner wire is weaker (and less likely to break) that it will also allow more travel. Using some more travel in the at-rest position would increase the tension - possibly close to what the current spring does, or at least what a fatigued spring does. I can measure that space tonight, but in effect we already have a measurement. It is exactly 3 times the thickness of the spring. The third wire (in pic above) goes in like a tight feeler gauge. And this is kind of fun. But it would not be any fun at all if this was not a spare tranny and I was anxious to get a bike back on the road.

I can fit another spring in there, but it is tight. It binds when I move the arm. The spring wire would have to be a lot thinner to allow 2.5 coils and still move freely. So the question is... how much pressure is needed and could a thinner spring do it? What did you think of my idea to extend the coil by 10 (or even 15) degrees? As a point of comparison, the good springs I have removed had fatigue beyond that point anyway and they were still working.

It's hard to get a good measurement with the spring installed, but I estimate that the spring is at 22 degrees at rest when installed. Springs on the towel approximate the installed position. It relaxes slightly on an upshift: This looks like the spring might need to travel 38 degrees for a downshift. So... I'm no engineer, but what if the 90-degree tab was a little further along the bend. The current active coil is 1.5 turns, or 540 degrees. If we put the 90 degree bend at 550, that gives us 1.53 active coils. But more importantly, it cuts 10 degrees off the installed position, which would bring the downshift travel within spec.

Post #85 in this Wild Guzzi conversation. http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=93144.60 Maybe somebody can copy the picture. The showbike paint is a pretty faithful reproduction of that one.

I dig the throwback coloring - just like I dig the red, white, and blue Africa Twin. My concern with any ADV bike is that I know I will try to jump logs and climb rocky single track. I want the big wheels. But this would seem to be a perfect all-road machine and probably suitable for mild technical terrain. A long tour with some 4WD road exploration... I could get down with that. Maybe put a winch on the front...

The spring has 1.5 active coils. A thinner spring might be part of the solution. And extra coil would take us to 2.5. I'll take a bunch of measurements tonight. I fit a much thicker wire (the one I made out of solder) - so maybe a thinner wire with an extra coil would fit? A thinner spring brings a concern about it being able to hold the arm in place. From what I can see, the arm does not require a lot of tension to be held in place. Braking will flop it forward and sometimes land it in the right position. That's how I was able to get a few shifts on the way home after my recent spring-break (it sounds like more fun if you call it Spring Break). But when I found 3rd I was close to home so then I left it in 3rd. I also noticed that when I pre-emptively replaced the spring on the Scura that the original was significantly weaker than the replacement, which broke shortly thereafter. I put the original, weaker spring back in and it's been fine since - but maybe that's because there's a spare under the seat.

Thanks Chuck. I can measure the rotation tonight. Let's see... when did I last use a protractor for anything? Do I have one? Can I find it?

Great idea! After all, we know Guzzis are all about lightness. So I see this is partly in jest... but the guy did mention "exotic materials." I said "I'm not that worried about cost, what would it take to make it out of some exotic material?" Then he said that the exotic materials only have benefits in much thicker springs than the one we need. In his opinion, piano wire is the best available material.

No need. I have a few.

Do you have a spring on hand that you could measure and use their online calculator? If not, I could post some measurements. I think that with your experience you might make a better decision than I would. I'm kind of limited to: "Here's a spring. Can you make me one just it, but better?"