I was life threatened the other day.

[Alex-Corsa]

For anyone who is not concerned with accuracy we have this instead!

You don't have to be acurate sometimes, just fix it and move on.

[dhansen]

I saw a video on the relatively new H&K MP7 yesterday. Where the MP5 is known as a "comfortable" weapon in close quarter situations, it's limited by the 9x19 mm cartridge and can't penetrate body armor. The MP7 cuts thru standard body armor like a hot knife thru butter.

 

The MP7 is chambered for the new 4.6x30mm cartridge, developed jointly by H&K and Royal Ordnance Radway Green.

 

From Guns Magazine , Feb, 2003 by Charles Q. Cutshaw:

A key element of the MP7's design is the 4.6x30mm nontoxic cartridge. The bullet is of solid steel, copper plated and weighs 24.7 grains (l.6g). It leaves the muzzle at 2,379 fps (725 mps), with muzzle energy of 312 ft-lb. (420 joules). In contrast, the standard NATO 9xl9mm cartridge has a muzzle velocity of 1,299fps (396 mps) and a muzzle energy of 430 ft-lb. (583 joules).

 

I had a Remington M700 chambered for the little .17Rem Cartridge. It was a hoot to play with. Big bang, but absolutely no recoil and accurate as could be. I don't remember the ballistics but it was impressive for such a little thing.

 

We normally fired that MP5 off my friends deck at a gong set up across the pond. There was a certain time in the afternoon when the sun would reflect off the base of the bullets on the way to the gong. Just like a tracer. You could follow it all the way to the target.

[DeBenGuzzi]

Grenades are things of beauty. Never before have I been so impressed with the sheer power of a baseball sized device. Have ear plugs... as the detonation is deafening. I've had the pleasure of using some pretty neat stuff but my favorite is still the MK19. Something about fully automatic and 40mm grenades in the same package just produces a warm, fuzzy feeling inside. Especially if you've got an itch to destroy something.

 

I'm almost more of a fan of the small arms though, I'm accurate enough (pie plate) at 50 feet with my .45 and 9mm but with the M4 being primary the pistols usually get used last ditch to fight one's way to a rifle.

umm, what exactly is it that you do again?

 

I'm guessing military, they have wifi out on the front lines there now?

 

I would hope to never get so close and as for grenades I'd primarily use them to "check out" suspect houses for insurgents

[mike wilson]

The 4.6mm bullet has a high ballistic coefficient, and is fired at a higher velocity than the 9mm, which gives it a flatter trajectory and greater range.

 

Until recently (about 10 years ago, ahem) there was a place in the UK where you could stand about 100yards away from tanks firing on the ranges at Lulworth. It was fascinating to see the difference in trajectory between the smaller, lighter guns and the big stuff. The former had trajectories like a lobbed grenade.

 

Even better fun was to stand behind the crowd and watch every one of them leave the ground each time the big tanks fired.

 

I first found the place when I was riding past and thought my engine had expired in grand fashion.

[Beuphonium]

Yes... military. US Marines, actually. Though there is internet connectivity "in country", it's not quite the front lines; thankfully I'm stateside (for now). I expect that to change in the next couple months, the way things are going. Exactly where I'll be sent though, I don't yet know. Such is life.

 

And you're quite right... I would not like to be standing within about 75 feet of an M67 grenade when it goes off. It will kill just about anything inside of 15 feet, and inside of 75 will do some serious damage. Best thing to do is toss them into a room to clear it, but for that purpose, they work VERY well.

[ferguzzi]

"Grenades are a thing of beauty".

I'm a little lost for words.

The crass stupidity/naiivity of this forum with regard to weapons is really starting to piss me off.

As an ex army marksman, I'm fairly well aware of what most of the above weapons were designed for. They're not toys. If you think they are, then you've probably not seen the result of their main purpose up close.

i.e. to Kill people.

I use this website as a way of learning about my lovely motorcycle, getting a little humour, hearing opinions and listening to intelligent comments from people all over the world who generally,it seems, have cohesive and sometime controversial things to say about the most widespread of topics.

But I draw the line about how beautiful a granade is. I don't care how useful one is in combat, so is a cluster bomb dropped from a tornado, but I'm not going to sing it's praises because I've seen what it does to flesh.

These kind of comments, in my opinion, don't have a place on a forum like this, although I'm sure there are ones where they are approprate, I'm just not going to read them.

I find such comments highly offensive, and I'm not the only one.

This is a motorcycle forum. Not a weapons forum. Why don't some of you indulge us peacenik pinkos and take the gun conversations elsewhere.

Otherwise I'll have to stop using this website, and I don't think that's fair, because I take a lot of enjoyment from my motorcyle, and those who feel the same way.

Fergal.

[DeBenGuzzi]

"Grenades are a thing of beauty".

I'm a little lost for words.

The crass stupidity/naiivity of this forum with regard to weapons is really starting to piss me off.

As an ex army marksman, I'm fairly well aware of what most of the above weapons were designed for. They're not toys. If you think they are, then you've probably not seen the result of their main purpose up close.

i.e. to Kill people.

I use this website as a way of learning about my lovely motorcycle, getting a little humour, hearing opinions and listening to intelligent comments from people all over the world who generally,it seems, have cohesive and sometime controversial things to say about the most widespread of topics.

But I draw the line about how beautiful a granade is. I don't care how useful one is in combat, so is a cluster bomb dropped from a tornado, but I'm not going to sing it's praises because I've seen what it does to flesh.

These kind of comments, in my opinion, don't have a place on a forum like this, although I'm sure there are ones where they are approprate, I'm just not going to read them.

I find such comments highly offensive, and I'm not the only one.

This is a motorcycle forum. Not a weapons forum. Why don't some of you indulge us peacenik pinkos and take the gun conversations elsewhere.

Otherwise I'll have to stop using this website, and I don't think that's fair, because I take a lot of enjoyment from my motorcyle, and those who feel the same way.

Fergal.

I see your point fer, but this is the banter section for random remarks and is actually WAYYYYY more tame than some other sites I've seen. No one can ever please everyone the best thing to do is to not read into anything you don't agree with and you'll be much happier in life and on the net.

 

no matter where I am I tend to talk about a lot of different things. I.E. at the boat show but talking about my motorcycle or at the softball game talking about hunting the idea is we can't only talk about motorcycles 24/7 365, if we did then I'D LEAVE.

 

 

I should add, if everyone agreed all the time, then that wouldn't be very much fun either.

[Alex-Corsa]

And something you might like to read.

knive laws in the states

Some other laws in the European countries here..Sorry only in German

Laws are made with the stupid assesment that all people are the same ,no we're not , some are evil and some are devine., and on his subject they fail IMO.

Having something like a knfe or a anything that can be concidered as a weapon, doesn't have to do as much with it ,but with the moral of the person that is having it.Evil people can harm others with anything, it can even be a pen or a rock, while one who has the right moral & inegrity to use something like this can save lives.

Who's going to be the judge of that? well there is a way, always ,even in the so called controled societies we "claim" to have, that's even easier(though they don't do it.). And criminality could fail dramaticlly afterwards.One can start with the key word education....and go on.

IMO "our modern" societies have a moral problem , something that "modern" science (phycology or whatever relative)never took into concideration..

[Beuphonium]

I do not wish to incite an argument, but in my particular case I do not believe crass stupidity/naivety with regard to these things is the case, nor is blood lust. Referring to grenades as things of beauty is my engineering degree speaking. I refer only to the idea that such a small device can harness such power. I clearly remember during combat training walking away from the range with a newfound respect for them, and while seeing their effects on range targets is one thing (such as the dumpster I hit with the mk19) the effect on human lives is always devastating and tragic.

 

Honestly, the mechanical precision is what brought me to like my firearm, and my motorcycle as well. The same way my rifle is able to fire, unlock, extract, eject, cock, feed, chamber, and lock to me is analogous to the way the crankshaft on my Guzzi can turn at more than 8000 times per minute, valves opening and closing and pistons pumping in such a manner that everything works together.

 

I will say that 99% of the shooting I do is on a range, at a paper target. I will also say that it brings no pleasure to even think of using my weapon to harm an individual. The nature of my military service however, obligates me to be proficient using the weapons systems, and (worse) willing to pull the trigger when the time comes. The decision is not an easy one.

 

Which brings us to the point of this entire thread. What happens when an individual is required by a situation to defend their life? The best way out of that situation is not to get into it, but when you're there, preparedness may be the difference between life and death, if not for yourself, then for someone you care about.

 

 

On a lighter note, my .45 is a M1911A1, with a few tweaks. I have always liked the design, and find it to be comfortable to shoot.

[dhansen]

Honestly, the mechanical precision is what brought me to like my firearm, and my motorcycle as well. The same way my rifle is able to fire, unlock, extract, eject, cock, feed, chamber, and lock to me is analogous to the way the crankshaft on my Guzzi can turn at more than 8000 times per minute, valves opening and closing and pistons pumping in such a manner that everything works together.

Exactly beuph. It is mechanical art in a form I find very appealing. Doesn't matter what kind of machine it is I've always been facinated by mechanical genious and even mechanical idiocy on occasion.

 

I hope you manage to keep out of harms way.

[ferguzzi]

I understand the point about mechanical efficiency of any kind, and a person's admiration for it, I just think a grenade is pushing it a bit far. Atom bombs are amazing pieces of kit, but I'd find it disconcerting to read here how wonderful they are.

I've flown airliners now for almost 20 years, and a constant question in one of those silly pschosymetric tests we constantly get asked is" what would you prefer, a well oiled gun, or a well written poem?". Now, not to sound like a homicidal twit with a facination for weapons(because people like their pilots boringly sane), you might reply the poem. But I, and most of my colleagues would be lying because it's in our nature to enjoy something mechanical that works well, like a guzzi(?!), it doesn't matter what it's purpose. And of course it's the correct answer.

This is a long way from boasting about your 9mm penile extension that is just the thing to survive suburban Iowa, or wherevever. This is infantile, I find it offensive, and like I said, I'm not the only one. I know there are more "Out there" websites then this, but I don't choose to visit them, so I don't like it when it visits this particular inner sanctum of mine.

And yes, this is a wide and varied website, which I love, but no we don't talk about everything, and there are reasons for this.

If I started talking about how how cute my twelve year old nephew looked having his bath today, I'd be taken apart in no time, and for good reason. It's in bad taste, and has no place on this website. Neither do assault rifles.

A little less extreme, but if I started talking about how much I enjoy sucking c**k, How long before the complaints rained in? I know Jaap is dutch, but I don't think even he'd be that tolerant.

And yet it's not illegal, people do it all the time, and we even have a thread on boobies here, but oddly enough there's been nary a complaint about that.

The point is , it would be offensive to a lot of people, so it's one of those things that isn't mentioned at any length on this website. So, in my opinion, should be weapons of warfare.

The facination with knives I don't really care about. I don't understand it, but it's not exactly in the same league as discussing the kill rate of a steyr aug.

This thread started with Alex in a really crap situation with his neighbours. We've gone way off topic.

Lastly, with regard to Beauphonium upcoming trip back to Irakistan, any of the USMC guys I've had the fortune to work with have been intelligent level headed people who took their jobs seriously, and I'm sure Beau's no exception.

Make sure you get home safe to your family, and your guzzi, and if it means using every single weapon at your disposal to do so, there are few people better trained than you to do just that.

[Alex-Corsa]

The facination with knives I don't really care about. I don't understand it, but it's not exactly in the same league as discussing the kill rate of a steyr aug.

This thread started with Alex in a really crap situation with his neighbours. We've gone way off topic.

So I think too about the thread getting out of topic(though I don't mind).I think this is a basic resul on this forum.. . i.e.you can start a topic about tyres and end up on global warming or something, Perhaps some people don't have the full conciouness of what they talk about, I would take it mostly as a genneral bla,bla, talk than a serious talk. You know ,some stuff you hear you don't have to take seriously.

Unfortunatelly there are so many PC games introducing so much violence to the kids (this doen't reffer to people here) ,and everyone then can think of a grenade or a rifle as a game , but it isn't.That is more worrying to me, the new generation.Most people grow up to think that war or conflict or whatever is a game , but it isn't.

My main point was to show that bad or dangerous situations can happen all the time , quite fast.The point is that even when having the advantage (skils, & weapons if you call it,)you'll need temperament. Actually the best thing to do is to get away from it peacefully if you can, and that can be done when having awareness of situation but with the right temper to act wiselly..The ancient Spartans used to say that bravery and smartness go hand in hand.

We live in strange times and we have to be carefull.

[Martin Barrett]

Arrgh Moderating hat called for and I've had too many tonight. Hope this comes out as I intend.

 

Alex has outlined a set of circumstances, and how he has felt about that. You have to make some allowances as English isn't probably his first language and we have difficulty some time putting down succinctly and clearly what we exactly mean. But he has introduced the compatibility of irk some neighbours and his interest in knives.

 

Now we are all individuals, and our positions on any subject are made up of our upbringing and our exposure to events that directly effect that. Your truth may be different to mine but we must respect each others as a valid point of view.

 

As a UK resident involved in law enforcement in "middle England" I have an abhorrence against the prospect of citizens arming them selves even in self defence. Unfortunately I don't know enough about Greek culture to know how relevant my experience and views are to Alex's circumstances. So therefore I've contributed give my experience and feelings about knives but haven't tried to be judgemental.

 

The topic has as usual run slightly wide of line, and were now dealing with firearms and grenades. Again the possession and usage is out side of my culture and experience, despite having some cadet and military experience.

 

I have some first hand experience of violent and traumatic death, I've had one person die on me, and I'm still not sure that my efforts to save him may have actually killed him. Apart from a brief spell in the RAF my professional life has included the principle role "protection of life"

 

I have some qualms about celebrating something that's principle aim is the taking of life and even more so

something that is indiscriminate.

 

Ferg has expressed good counter points, and his views should be respected.

 

One of the good things of this board is that it brings together a whole range of people who have one common interest. I enjoy this diversity and really enjoy your road trip experiences and pictures, and it is interesting on seeing individual views on topics.

 

I have the advantage of meeting Ferg at the Erin back in 05 and he seems a really good guy. So even if you dislike the prospect of being told what to do. Perhaps if you view it as doing a Guzzi brother a favour and move this topic back on topic to deal with anti social neighbours and perhaps the advisability of self defense esp with knives. I'd hate to have to break out the moderating bat for I believe we can learn a lot by listening to each other, but we need to respect each other and understand that others views may not be the same as ours, and not do do anything to offend. We could always open up a separate thread for the " blood thirsty and insensitive" to deal with these issues so that sensitive souls can avoid them* but I'm not sure that's the answer - comments please ( I'll open a new thread)

 

Play nice.

 

 

 

* that's everyone offended, so that's okay.

 

EDIT _ Thank you Alex - you've got your reply in whilst I was typing this out

[dhansen]

And yes, this is a wide and varied website, which I love, but no we don't talk about everything, and there are reasons for this.

I respect your opinion ferg and there are limits to the depths we sometimes plunge. Jaap does a pretty darn good job keeping things civil when we get carried away.

 

I don't think anyone here celebrates the carnage that could be realized with any of these weapons. For me though I must admit the rush I get from blasting away at a gong or an old squash floating in the pond with a .458 Winmag or a full-auto M16 is much like the shot of adrenline I get blasting along on the V11.

 

Is there a difference between the lethality of a 9mm handgun (or grenade for that matter) and riding a 500 pound motorcycle in an irresponsible manner?

 

I just don't see the harm in some of us sharing our entusiasm over the responsible use of whatever "toys" we may choose even if in reality the nature of the toy is not the most PC.

 

Noboby forces us to read every thread in the forum...................

[todd haven]

Ok,

If I posted a thread about tires, or oil, or Allah forbid , Global Warming,

and it turned to techniques for soaking corks, or what have you,

being that I have no interest in soaking the cork of any other male, I might just decide not to open that thread, even if it went to several pages.

 

I see the gun twist the same way.

If you are turned off by an activity, howza bout not looking at it?

 

Not as if the BOTM has big pic of a gun, or a wet cork even

 

C'mon.

"I don't like this topic, so no one else can discuss it??"

Sounds rather Puritanical. For a European.

 

We have TV stations here that play nothing but Spanish broadcasting.

It doesn't interest me, and disturbs me on some level.

So, I just pass em by. Is that so difficult?