My Tenni, she pings

[Garsdad]

I have set my valves, set my TPS, balanced and syncronized my throttle bodies, and the Tenni, she pings. Not trusting myself, I took her to Cascade Moto, and Kelly checked her over- everything is perfect, and still she pings.

 

Not the usual "pull the throttle to the stops from idle and of course she pings" stuff, but easing into the throttle at 4500rpm in 2nd gear and she pings kind of thing. Runing to redline in third, and she is pinging all the way kind of thing. Yes, I run premium fuel, although in winter it is "oxygenated" it happens in the summer, too. I thought lower temps might help, but the cold, dense air seems to exagerate the lean condition and make it worse.

 

It was a California bike and there is no "gain" adjustment on my FI so I can't just richen up the fuel and hope.

 

Which brings me to my point:

 

I have no plans to modify the Tenni at this time. Keeping everything stock, what is the best way to richen up the mix a bit? Power Commander? Creedon Chip? Yak Fat?

 

I am assuming that the CA status is what makes it so damn lean, and the CARB "thou shalt not make thy bike run well" edict is why I have no gain adjustment... is there a way around that?

 

Oh, and I am a cheap bastard, so the less $$$ the beter.

[Guest ratchethack]

It was a California bike and there is no "gain" adjustment on my FI so I can't just richen up the fuel and hope.

Garsdad, if there's a FI "gain" adjustment, it's something I don't know about. Mine's not a CA bike, and I certainly don't have it -- unless y'er referring to TPS setting?

Keeping everything stock, what is the best way to richen up the mix a bit? Power Commander? Creedon Chip? Yak Fat?

. . .

Oh, and I am a cheap bastard, so the less $$$ the beter.

IMHO best get fuel quality and its whys & wherefores on the table, 'cause you ain't gonna fight ping and at least gain the upper hand without gettin' real chummy with it. . . 'specially if y'er a cheap bastard.

 

Being a Fellow West Coaster, you no doubt suffer from nearly the same, if not the same "contaminated" fuel as we do here in CA? This lovely swill is of course brought to us by our friendly Eco-Nazi's at the EPA and dozens of other "helpful" regulatory institutions, sub-branches, and offshoots of both The Fed and The State. Of course, under the laughable fraud of "saving the environment", our friendly corrupt legislators have well noticed that dumbed-down voters incapable of analytical thinking, along with any reguations that might actually have some chance of being beneficial, will fall for an increasing pile o' questionable-to-horrendously detrimental regulations, as long as the propaganda machines are well-stoked and a "consensus" is well established in the media. Let's face it. The Sheeple will pretty much swallow anything lately -- INCLUDING regulations mandating performance-killing, pollution-increasing, cost-increasing, corn grower subsidy-producing, ping-producing ethanol and other crap INTO our fuel, while regulating all the performance-enhancing, cost-lowering, corn grower subsidy-eliminating, pollution-decreasing, ping-eliminating additives OUT. . . Remember the wonderful, reformulated MTBE "green gas" fiasco? But my apologies. I digress, and you don't wanna get me started hijacking y'er thread. . . .

 

Now this is slightly confusing because you want to keep everything stock. Yet you asked about PC III or Creedon chip?? To me, this is not stock? A PC III or alternative ain't y'er cheapest of cheap bastard approaches -- at least up-front. Long-term is another matter altogether! IMHO either would certainly be preferrable to not installing one or the other, and have a far greater expectation of success in reducing ping, as well as providing many other advantages -- particularly long-term. But a long-term approach may or may not be a cheap bastard's preferred cup o' tea. . . .

 

Like many others, I have a PC III and still have some ping, a great deal less than I had before installing it, and what ping I have remaining is not much, it only shows up in hot weather. The sad truth is that there's only so much you can do with our crap fuel to decrease ping when y'er limited by a wonky cylinder head shape. Of course every bike is different, but I reckon most of us V-11 riders here in CA are on the ragged edge of ping (at least in hot weather) with the higest octane pump gas we can find.

 

By first-hand observation, "race gas" works fine to eliminate ping, but it's simply not a good alternative for most people on the road. I have a Pal who had to use it in lieu of CA pump gas just so's he could ride his high-compression piston-equipped 2000 Sport. After wrestling with horrendous ping and all the painful and expensive alternatives to get it to run on pump gas for a year, he got discouraged and finally sold the bike.

 

One approach would be to decrease compression ratio with thicker head gaskets, which are available. This would certainly qualify as one "cheap bastard" option with a very high probability of reducing or eliminating ping, with the trade-off being a decrease in torque and power across the powerband.

 

Going over-rich will NOT solve a ping problem, but correcting an over-lean situation can help a great deal, and in some cases eliminate it, depending on how over-lean it might've been to begin with -- and I'm here to tell you that many bikes, including Guzzi's, roll out of CA dealerships set up WAY over-lean. I assume you set the TPS to 150 mV with throttle linkage disconnected and idle adjustment screw backed full off with throttle plate seated fully home? Keeping in mind that TPS readings will always tend to vary slightly +/- 10 mV or so, I use the voltage reading/degree of throttle opening targets as "guides" only, navigating by the logic that though the theoretical ideal 14.7/1 A/F is a constant, due to production variances, the "sweet spot" as measured by mV at the TPS will be different for every bike, somewhere within a range around the specified target numbers. You can raise the 150 mV setting slightly and see if this decreases ping. This will increase the pulse width of the signal to the injectors at all RPMs and decrease an over-lean condition by richening up the A/F at all throttle angles.

 

Now this is just me, but I would take my reading with throttle linkage connected at idle, and if the reading is lower than 475-500 mV, I'd increase it gradually by adjusting the TPS, testing it several times on the road for any decrease in ping, take several plug readings, and NOT set it higher than 500-525 mV.

 

NOTE: With PC III installed, our Intrepid Dynojet Rep, Todd Eagan of GuzziTech and International Guzzi fame, including Norge Road Test fame recommends setting TPS at 500-525 mV at idle, throttle linkage connected. (BTW - Todd installed my #003 map drectly from the "library" on his laptop. Todd's "library" of maps for the V-11 was at one time more extensive than Dynojet's -- probably still is.) In this range, I find no perceptible change in ping, and plugs consistently read a nice, even tan color with a bit of a soot shadow on the exhaust side o' the head -- just as I'd expect when the A/F is correct.

 

Hope this helps.

[gh67]

Garsand, sorry to hear about the pinging issue....it can definitely be an annoying problem. Did the shop check the timing? That would be the first thing I checked given that it pings throughout the power curve. Most of the pinging problems you'll read about on forum occur when we're in the passing lane hitting the throttle...not the cruising around town problem you have. A good Guzzi shop should have the Axeone tool that lets them plug into your ECU and adjust the timing and fuel delivery....or reset it to OEM specs all together if needed.

 

Yes, you could buy a PCIII and get a custom map (which would probably be necessary given the extent of your problems)......but this would only be a bandaide fix to a real problem.

 

As far as I know there is no CA specific ECU....mine is also a CA bike and it is my understanding that all are 50 state bikes. And yes...the fuel here is horrible too....I believe oxygenated all the time.

 

good luck

[Guest ratchethack]

Did the shop check the timing? That would be the first thing I checked given that it pings throughout the power curve.

There's no provision for timing adjustment on stock bikes except via programming. Dlaing has posted that he's used Tuneboy to alter timing, but for reasons that remain incomprehensible to me, and if I understood his last post on this correctly (I'm not entirely certain that I did ), like me, he's using a "library map" in his PC III without any timing or map changes -- and also without any ping?

[guzziownr]

My '04 Naked is all stock --Except for the Power Commander.

 

Wanna borrow it for testing purposes?

 

Since it is mapped for a stock bike all you would have to do is plug it in and stash it under the seat.

 

If you like it, buy one from Todd and send mine back.

 

It is very cold in NYC and My bike is going to be sitting for a while yet.

 

Dave in NYC

 

Find the Power commander in this picture:

 

[Garsdad]

My '04 Naked is all stock --Except for the Power Commander.

 

Wanna borrow it for testing purposes?

 

Since it is mapped for a stock bike all you would have to do is plug it in and stash it under the seat.

 

If you like it, buy one from Todd and send mine back.

 

It is very cold in NYC and My bike is going to be sitting for a while yet.

 

Dave in NYC

 

Find the Power commander in this picture:

 

 

 

Thank you for your generous offer- I may take you up on that if I can't get this dialed in without it.

 

The 16M has a screw that you can use to richen up your mixture across the board. Our 15M bikes don't have this; you have to use the shop computer. This begs the question- is there a cable and software so I could use my laptop to fine-tune the 15M?

 

Ryan

[docc]

Ryan,

 

There are a handful of protocols for setting the TPS. Some work better than others. Check out this from Jeff in Ohio.

 

Certainly the easiest, cheapest way to flow a little more fuel at any given rpm is to move the TPS to the high end of its range.

 

I find my Guzzi runs the best when the rider behind me complains of his eyes watering.

[Guest ratchethack]

Did the shop check the timing? That would be the first thing I checked given that it pings throughout the power curve.

Timing is of course an important consideration here, and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. No offense meant, either, gh67.

 

Since I have ZERO experience with dealerships with tune-ups, I wouldn't know wot to expect. Come to think of it, who ever knows exactly wot you've got when you get it back from behind closed doors?!

 

This is just me, but the idea of not knowing what has or hasn't been done, how well or how poorly, let alone the reason (or lack thereof) behind it, and being in a position of continual doubt would be my main reason to do everything I can possibly do 100% myself, as I've always done.

 

But I doubt a dealership would be likely to fiddle with timing under the circumstances, in favor of keeping all such standard settings consistent with Guzzi specifications.

 

D'you think they'd have 'accidentally' -- or otherwise -- advanced the timing? Wot're the probabilities? This'd certainly cause it to ping. Couldn't hurt to do wotever it takes to find out f'er sure.

[dlaing]

There's no provision for timing adjustment on stock bikes except via programming. Dlaing has posted that he's used Tuneboy to alter timing, but for reasons that remain incomprehensible to me, and if I understood his last post on this correctly (I'm not entirely certain that I did ), like me, he's using a "library map" in his PC III without any timing or map changes -- and also without any ping?

When I ran with an open airbox lid, my bike was prone to pinging, but was fixable by adjusting the timing and fueling with TuneBoy.

Tuneboy, Axeone and Techno Research's Direct Link software can all adjust timing maps and other maps.

As far as I know, there is no Creedon Chip for our bike.

When I put the airbox lid back on and ran the "interpreted" PCIII map, the pinging went away, as did some of the power and fuel efficiency.

I can run it on 89 octane without pinging, but 87 octane will make it ping. I usually run 91 Octane.

I bought a WBO2 sensor and logger to tune it better, but am procastinating.

[stormsedge]

Find the Power commander in this picture:

 

---looks like the pigtail runs into the rubber padding wire tied at the rear of your underseat frame.

 

 

 

Gars--I recommend a Power Commander...allows you some lattitude in adjustment that the factory didn't. k

[dlaing]

Right now there is a NEW PCIII USB in Classifieds for $240US, which is about $100 off retail.

 

TuneBoy is probably about $300 to $500 Australian.

They don't post the price because they have not finished the product.

The map editor works fine, but they don't have a working diagnostic software yet.

You can email them for a discounted price for not being ready. The price should not be over $400 Austrailian unless the diagnostic software is ready.

 

TechnoResearch divides their product into two software packages also.

Direct Link is for mapping and they have another software for diagnostics.

To me, the mapping software is more important than the diagnostic, but having the diagnostic could give piece of mind when you have a pinging problem like yours that could be caused by a bad sensor or ECU error.

 

The Axeone is out of your price range, and is probably no better than having the two TechnoResearch software packages.

 

FIM is another alternative. But expensive for what you get.

 

Techlusion is another alternative. Cheap, but you can't map with it. It gives you three broad brushes for painting it richer. Kinda like painting the Mona Lisa with only three colors and a mop rather than a paint brush.

 

Cliff Jeffries' tuneable MY15 ECU is about the ultimate alternative.

 

Also somebody in Europe makes an ECU that fits inside a tachometer!!!! Cool, but a little more expensive.

[dlaing]

PS

Just to make sure....

you did set the valves to 0.15mm intake and 0.20mm exhaust or looser, right?

Also , TPS is 150 mV +/- 5 mV when the ignition is on, throttle linkage detached and right throttle is completely closed, set screws backed out and cold start throttle advance detached. With everything reattached, at idle the TPS should be about 500-525mV.

Idle should be set to 1050 +/- 50RPM

[docc]

Also, realize the tach is probably reading a bit higher than actual. Mine is 300 rpm off. No big deal at 4500 but setting the idle to 1050 was idling me at 750. Much happier showing 1300 at idle on the tach.

 

I tried running my TPS low in the range ( 500mV) to save fuel. It didn't save fuel and ran worse. She's really a lot happier at 525mV.

[RacerX]

Garsdad, I generally stray away from this topic on this board, but here go... a pinging Tenni this time of year in Oregon? Surely something is awry (all Guzzis are 50-state compliant, no "Cal only" bikes any more). As stated above, the TPS is "adjustable" and raising the "degree" or voltage can generally help. However, timing is the real issue here.

 

Also stated, Will C. only made "EPROM/chips" for the 1.6M, yours is a 1.5M with a non-removable chip/flash memory.

 

As the "Guzzi Technical Advisor" to Dynojet, I have been working directly with them since '01, and have had great success' with the PCIII. This March will mark the 6th year anniversary of personal hard/flawless PCIII use (both serial and usb versions) on my '00 120k+ mile 'Mad Max' Jack-All. That being said, the PCIII is fuel only adjustable, and I frustratingly have to say that even though they (Dynojet) have made several attempts at a plug-in Timing Module for the PCIII, they hit some major roadblocks, and don't seem much interested in continuing to persue it at this time. Same with a PCIIIusb for the Breva/Griso 11. If you do purchase one, and it is properly mapped, I know you will be very happy with the results, even if a "band aid" as others want to call it. I cannot match most online prices, but purchasing one through me assures lifetime technical support, and access to my hundreds of maps. I no longer give out maps to those purchasing elsewhere online.

 

Now, there are a couple software options, touched on above also...

I am now officially a TechnoResearch dealer, and am in possesion of all of their newest software and (partnered) FI module (RapidBike). They do offer it to fit the V11S line, though it does not offer ignition adjustment yet either. They tell me they are currently working on ignition adjustment for all Guzzi models.

Which brings me to TR's "Direct-Link" software and ECU "key." I will be testing/developing maps shortly, which when I am satisfied, I will begin offering a ECU "swap and/or reflash" service in which corrected/reflashed ECUs (timing and fuel corrections) will ship out for @$200 (which includes the key for that ECU). Software to allow additional access to you will be an additional @$100. Please contact me direct for more info, or I'll be posting on the GuzziTech.com webboard when ready.

 

I am currently in possesion of the RB unit for the Griso and Breva, and will be dyno testing/developing this week for my new proto-meg slip-on exhaust; MG-Griso.com webboard (towards the bottom, video/sound on the next page).

 

Contact me direct, or post on either webboard for more info. on any of the above.

 

Off to the dyno I go.