OT Honda Engineering

[Lex]

This isn't Guzzi related but if anybody thinks Hondas all have brilient engineering shouldn get a copy of this month's Motorcyle Consumer News. An artical on the Goldwing forks reads like "how not to make a front end" story.

 

A set of forks does three things; the springs suport the bike, the dampers control the springs and the fork needs to conect the riders hands to the front wheel to provide good steering. The Goldwing does all three badly and adds a poorly concived anti-dive system and under designed steering head bearings to the mix. My "German Goldwing" (K1200LT) had poorly set up shocks at both ends but it seems it was a masterpiece compared to the GL1800. Even the Marzzocchis on my Sport sounds pretty good next to this mess.

 

If you can't get a copy of MCN you can check out this vidio on the Traxion Dinamics web site. This is, obviosly, and ad for Traxxion Dynamics but it does a great job of going over the problems. Traxxion Dynamics GL1800 Seminar I warn you this is long, about 50 minutes, but pretty informative.

 

Lex

[dlaing]

Wow! 0.7 Kg/mm fork springs!!!!

Bike only sag at 60%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If anyone has trouble with the link above, go to

http://www.traxxion.com/cruisers/gold_wing_home.htm

and then click on the link to GL1800 Suspension 101

[mike wilson]

Cycle magazine was at a track, where the latest spunkbubble (or is it crotchrocket? this modern terminology confuses me) was being showcased by factory test riders before the journos got a go.

 

One of the staff writers, sensing the opportunity to get a bit of background noise, asked one of the riders how many development miles this completely new model had done. After thinking, the test rider said "At least 20,000miles". And was then promptly hustled off by managers. That figure probably says a lot more about "modern" (it was about 20 years ago) riders than modern machines but I have had a healthy disrespect for Japanese engineering since.

[Alex-Corsa]

Have read about front end suspencion problems in Motorrad , concerning theHonda Paneuropean model.

[Guest ratchethack]

Wow! 0.7 Kg/mm fork springs!!!!

Bike only sag at 60%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YEEEEEEEEFFFFFFTTTTTT!!!!!

 

.7 kg/mm fork springs on a massive, cargo-carrying behemoth Luxo-barge like a Lead Wing?!?!

 

More evidence that even Honda, like so many other OEMs, believes they sell more motorcycles when they install spring rates NOT FOR THE ROAD -- even for an "average weight" rider -- but so idiot tire-kickers on the showroom floor get that nice, "pillow-soft" feel in their pasty-white, flabby butts when they sit on it!!!

 

Even more frightening than this -- Honda has likely read their target market EXACTLY RIGHT!

 

Ya gotta give the Goobers wot they want -- and the Goobers who're buying 'em evidently "think" they want 'em ULTRA-SOFT!!!

[jrt]

The other side of this coin is a big thumbs up for MCN. And for Traxxion dynamics (good publicity for them). I like MCN because they they don't shy away from writing about complete screw-ups, and also because they have the nuts to go after MSF*. Dunno what to make of the argument, but at least they're arguing.

 

*The gist of it is that MSF (Motorcycle Safety Foundation) is practicing monopolistic business practices and MCN doesn't like that at all.

[Guest ratchethack]

Lex, you've got me thinkin', and that's always dangerous.

 

The above is more than I ever knew about Lead Wings. Somethin' smells real bad here.

 

The more I think about this the more frightening it becomes. This just DOES NOT add up.

 

Let me see if I've got this straight.

 

GIVEN:

 

*GL 1800 Lead Wing, 900 lbs.

*Two-up, loaded for touring, 1400 lbs.

*.7 kg./mm fork springs.

*60% unladen sag.

 

Extrapolating from the above, we may easily assume:

 

*75-80% laden sag, one-up.

*85-90% laden sag, two-up.

*90-95% laden sag, two-up, fully loaded for touring.

**The above is just the fork. The shock may be reasonably assumed to approach or exceed 100% laden sag, two-up, fully loaded for touring.

 

Available suspension travel (in compression direction) two-up, fully loaded for touring: Slim and ZIP, with emphasis on ZIP.

 

Assume common reality of a large segment of this riding demographic: 100% blind, hands-off ignorance of suspension setup. "Suspension?! It's exactly the way it came from the dealer, and I trust my dealer!"

 

CONSIDER: Laws of Newtonian Physics -- or if you prefer (as I often do ), Roadrunner and Coyote Physics (same principles, dramatically exaggerated)

 

Now roll the above monstrosity down the road the way most people would presume it was intended to be rolled down the road.

 

Wot would be REASONABLE to expect would happen when:

 

*Encountering large holes and bumps at speed.

*Encountering large holes and bumps at maximum lean angles at speed.

*Encountering large holes and bumps at maxumum lean angles fully loaded for touring at speed.

 

Didn't I read somewhere recently about a sizeable spate of cracked Lead Wing frames?

 

Now who'd have imagined how THAT could happen?!?!

 

How is it possible that many hundreds of Lead Wing riders aren't killed outright?

 

In today's litigious climate, where large, important-looking buildings swell with halls of lawyers feeding at the trough of judicial activism and tort law/insurance fraud -- Where's the pursuit of Honda with it's ever-so DEEP POCKETS?? Who's being bought & paid for here, the Honda lobby in Washington DC, and exactly who's doin' wot to whom?! Is the MSF acting as bagman for Honda? Is this yet another symptom of our malignant trade imbalance with Japan? I thought Lead Wings were built in Mexico?

 

Where's our resident Forum legal team on this one, please?

 

So many questions, and of course, enquiring minds just gotta know.

[mznyc]

Well at least it's not an exploding clutch!

Upgrading suspensions for almost every motorcycle made in the last 30 years is almost like a right of passage for most bikers.Changing springs re-valving,changing fluid wt,level are all common upgrades regardless of make or model.Ive seen people change RC45 suspensions as well as SV 650's.Dosen't mean they're crap bikes or poorly engineered ,just owners tweaking them for their needs.

I agree 1 inch of remaining travel is unacceptable on the Gold Wing.But as someone who has owned 8 Hondas,with 100's of thousands of miles on them I NEVER had any major problems.Change the oil,basic maintenance,and RIDE.Honda has very few recalls and they make many models, not a few.Thats a great track record,(they also have great record on the track),that almost any company including Guzzi would envy.

Take a close look at a Honda.Look at the beautiful welds on the frame,the un-exposed to the elements wiring,work the high quality switchgear and you will see why Honda is the benchmark that manufacturers strive to be.Are they bland to some,yes.Is their engineering sub quality to anyone,NO!!

One of the reasons this great forum exists and thrives because of problems us owners have to resolve ourselves,and also the lack of support from Guzzi .Go to a Honda forum and the bulk of their threads are,what type of tires should I use,seat choices,where do i put my Sirius Radio mount?How many of us have had our bikes laid up for long periods because of poorly engineered parts,lack of dealer/Guzzi support or unavailability parts.Few of us only have our Guzzi as our everyday ride to-work-bike because of their er,ah,..character.I'm not saying their unreliable ,they're just not boring like those ,start every day in any conditions,Hondas.

If this rare ,under- engineered spring in the Gold Wing gives us the bullet to take Honda off it's high perch ,it's a blank!

I love my Guzzi!Even though it hasn't run in a month,and still have to replace the clutch before it blows up.The one that Guzzi has yet to acknowledge till someone gets hurt.Oh well at least I still have the ST1100 in the garage so I can get to work.....

[Guest ratchethack]

Some good points made, mznyc. Speaking f'er myself, it's been a long time since I owned a Honda, and I wouldn't pretend to have much of a perspective from an owner's point of view lately, since that was decades ago. But from my point of view, I certainly cannot disagree with anything you've said, nor does it appear to me that you've been at all misleading. So how do you reconcile the claims above and on Max's Web site?

Upgrading suspensions for almost every motorcycle made in the last 30 years is almost like a right of passage for most bikers.

I don't know if I'd agree with "most" bikers. Suspension setup has been a mandatory top priority item on every bike I've owned for 40 years (including the 2 I have now that's 12), but I've observed quite the opposite as a general trend hereabouts over the last several years, as well as on other Forums and on the road. Hence my concerns and my post above. Getting it as wrong as it would appear (above) with "hands off" reliance on the dealer when there's typically as much as 1400 lbs. so horribly under-suspended, and the stakes would appear to be pretty high. . . .

 

Wot of the stack o' stuff above and the unavoidable conclusion? Somethin's WAY outta whack here.

 

Has someone made improper claims or d'you think I've made incorrect assumptions in my last post?

 

Has Mad Max McAllister at Traxxion Dynamics overstated the case as sales hype in wot (if not largely based in reality) would be subjectively considered an exceptionally brazen manner?

 

If so, wouldn't you think he'd be exposed here for libel and/or fraud?

 

If he's overstated his case -- where has he done so?

[badmotogoozer]

 

In today's litigious climate, where large, important-looking buildings swell with halls of lawyers feeding at the trough of judicial activism and tort law/insurance fraud -- Where's the pursuit of Honda with it's ever-so DEEP POCKETS?? Who's being bought & paid for here, the Honda lobby in Washington DC, and exactly who's doin' wot to whom?! Is the MSF acting as bagman for Honda? Is this yet another symptom of our malignant trade imbalance with Japan? I thought Lead Wings were built in Mexico? <_>

 

 

Well done Ratchet! You've somehow extrapolated yet another massive conspiracy theory from someone pointing out that Goldwangs are undersprung (just like our Goosies).

 

Who else is out to get us??? Please, enquiring minds NEED to KNOW!

 

You've got Dave pegged for the purple planet, but for the life o' me, I can't figure out which one you're on. Keep it coming!

 

Rj

[Guest ratchethack]

Keep it coming!

Well now! It's another familiar "drive by"! I'd been missing them for so long now. . . Upholding y'er tradition of maligning points of view without offering anything (anything at all) of value y'erself, again, eh, Ryan? This is a track record of distinction, my friend. We've seen nary the likes of it on this Forum in many years -- scratch that -- EVER! Why mess with perfection?

[pete roper]

 

Wot would be REASONABLE to expect would happen when:

 

*Encountering large holes and bumps at speed.

*Encountering large holes and bumps at maximum lean angles at speed.

*Encountering large holes and bumps at maxumum lean angles fully loaded for touring at speed.

 

 

This is where your logic falls flat. None of the above scenarios are EVER going to happen as Lead Wing owners are;

 

a.) Not Human.

b.) Don't *ride* a motorbike, they travel on a two wheeled car. So they try not to lean, ever.

c.) Even when 'Touring' they only use a fraction of the machine's theoretical 'Performance' and their progress down the road can only be detected using time-lapse photography. For most of them the idea of a 'Tour' is a 30Km trip to the outskirts of town, prefferably by a six lane highway where they can, along with their buddies, act as a kind of rolling chicane and raise the blood pressure of everyone within a 15 mile radius!

 

Pete

[Lex]

All,

 

First, let me be clear I have no experience with the GL1800. I do, however, have a great deal of respect for MCN. I have no personal experience with Traxxion Dynamics but everyone I know who has dealt has come back with very positive reports.

 

That said, I'll point out a few things that might make some of this make more sense. The MCN article goes into more detail on some points. First, there is another inch of suspension travel in the GL1800 front end, it is just very stiff due to the anti-bottoming system. Also, don't forget the GLs use big, soft front tires. The tire is the original suspension system.

 

Are the claims in the Traxxion Dynamics video true? Basically, I believe they are. Is the speaker in the video sighting worst case to make his product look like a necessity rather than a luxury? Probably.

 

Even if you view the article and the video with a large grain of salt this is a terrible piece of engineering. One interesting point from the article, the fork bushings (the ones that wear out quickly) are the same (Showa) part number in the GL fork and older GSXR600 Suzukis. A bike that weight just under 900 ponds (without rider, passenger or luggage) and a bike the runs a bit over 400 pounds without rider. A bike that commonly runs 100,000 miles Vs. a bike that will be on the scrap heap in 10,000 to 20,000. Sound like good engineering to you?

 

JMHO,

 

Lex

[badmotogoozer]

Why mess with perfection?

 

Why indeed! As long as we have that straight!

 

Nothing else of value in that post!

 

Rj

[Guest ratchethack]

This is where your logic falls flat. None of the above scenarios are EVER going to happen as Lead Wing owners are;

 

a.) Not Human.

b.) Don't *ride* a motorbike, they travel on a two wheeled car. So they try not to lean, ever.

c.) Even when 'Touring' they only use a fraction of the machine's theoretical 'Performance' and their progress down the road can only be detected using time-lapse photography. For most of them the idea of a 'Tour' is a 30Km trip to the outskirts of town, prefferably by a six lane highway where they can, along with their buddies, act as a kind of rolling chicane and raise the blood pressure of everyone within a 15 mile radius!

 

Pete

You must be right, Pete. I'd befuddled meself with the silly notion that most of the LeadHeads might actually approach riding the way human motorbike riders with more 'serious' inclinations toward big mileage riding would. While I'm sure that there are a few of 'em, this is clearly more of a fiction these days than a general rule. Wot was I thinking?

 

Best reformulate my entire perspective and consider them 2-wheeled Winnebago's -- if f'er no other reason than for my own protection on the road when overtaking from behind.

 

I've come upon many a Lead Wing "rolling chicane" here in So CA. They're like flotillas o' road dirigibles, with the Papas at the helm and the Mamas out back in their rolling La-Z-Boy armchairs, decked out in puffy, matching Hondaline suits, nursing obligatory caffè e latte's in cupholders with straws. I always wonder when I see this how far they expect to get on their long-range land yachts before they have to pee. Maybe some have the appropriate gender dual sewer plumbing installed in their Hondaline suits plugged into the cap'n's chair and La-Z-Boy pillion?

 

NOTE TO SELF: Another reason not to get caught behind a Lead Wing chicane on a long, twisty mountain ascent, lest be on the receiving end of a rolling "flush".