Re-seal the 6 speed

[Guest ratchethack]

. . . now I am going to edit my original post to reflect that a special tool is needed to take the second rear cover off. (Just incase they don't read through the thread before starting this project!)

Good thought, Steve. My bad on the mistaken "no special tools" recommendation early in this thread. I was going on a combination of semi-first-hand and second-hand info, believed wot I posted, and truly had no intent, nor expectation of deception!!

 

I've likewise edited my post.

 

Thankfully this Forum has (again) set me straight!

[raz]

Anyone know of a source for stainless steel fasteners for the re-assembly?

 

There were too many fasteners assembled without anti-seize coating that many of the allen-sockets were damaged.

I just bought some from http://www.stagonset.co.uk/ (someone here mentioned them I think). I'm quite happy with their services.

 

Quoted from their site: "Small quantities are our speciality and there is no minimum order"

[FuelCooler]

Good thought, Steve. My bad on the mistaken "no special tools" recommendation early in this thread. I was going on a combination of semi-first-hand and second-hand info, believed wot I posted, and truly had no intent, nor expectation of deception!!

 

I've likewise edited my post.

 

Thankfully this Forum has (again) set me straight!

 

Mr. Roper stated he hadn't been all the way in one yet, and you didn't claim you had for that matter, Ratchethack! Even if one of you had been in one and forgot, I have no hard feelings. You, Pete, BrianG and many others here are light years ahead of me in knowledge and experience. I appreciate all your help and support.

 

Next, on to the forks..........

You have any ideas about them, Ratchethack? Something about springs I think? Oil height?

 

Thanks guys,

Steve

[Guest ratchethack]

Next, on to the forks..........

You have any ideas about them, Ratchethack? Something about springs I think? Oil height?

Well, Steve, I've got a few ideas, yes. You may've seen a few o' my posts on this? Pete just sent me a PM this morning on this. Seems a bloke in OZ was setting up a Rosso Mandello with Marz 040 USD fork, and had 3 different suggested refill volumes in front of 'im. My suggestion was 100 mm AIR GAP, forget volume altogether, and 125/150 synth. CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID.

 

So wot 'r y'er objectives with springs? If I can help, I'll do my humble best.

[BrianG]

Excellent BrianG.

I was waiting until one of us got the thing apart, so now I am going to edit my original post to reflect that a special tool is needed to take the second rear cover off. (Just incase they don't read through the thread before starting this project!)

 

I will mock up a stand like yours as well, but I still have 10 days until my tools get here.

Go YamaBond!

Where did you get your output shaft seal? Bearing house or MG?

 

 

Careful with that edit!!

 

The tool is to release the input shaft from the CASE..... not from the transmission cover!

 

All of the shafts remain captured in the "transmission cover" and should NOT be removed for purposes of re-sealing the transmission. It is not necessary. There are no seals or gaskets that need attention in the "transmission cover".

 

FYI there are 4 of those "ring-nuts" at that "transmission cover", one securing each of the 4 shafts. There are 3 sizes of "ring-nuts" in total so the tool I used is only one of 3 needed to totally liberate the shafts.

 

I got the output shaft from the dealer along with the gaskets. I am looking for the input shaft seal at the local bearing dealer.

[Guest ratchethack]

Careful with that edit!!

 

The tool is to release the input shaft from the CASE..... not from the transmission cover!

 

All of the shafts remain captured in the "transmission cover" and should NOT be removed for purposes of re-sealing the transmission. It is not necessary. There are no seals or gaskets that need attention in the "transmission cover".

Hey Brian. Does this mean that I thought I was wrong, but I was wrong??

[FuelCooler]

 

The tool is to release the input shaft from the CASE..... not from the transmission cover!

 

All of the shafts remain captured in the "transmission cover" and should NOT be removed for purposes of re-sealing the transmission. It is not necessary. There are no seals or gaskets that need attention in the "transmission cover".

 

.

 

Thats exactly what I meant about the disassembly.

I will update my edit for clarity with your quote, thanks again BrianG.

 

 

Well, Steve, I've got a few ideas, yes. You may've seen a few o' my posts on this? Pete just sent me a PM this morning on this. Seems a bloke in OZ was setting up a Rosso Mandello with Marz 040 USD fork, and had 3 different suggested refill volumes in front of 'im. My suggestion was 100 mm AIR GAP, forget volume altogether, and 125/150 synth. CARTRIDGE FORK FLUID.

 

So wot 'r y'er objectives with springs? If I can help, I'll do my humble best.

 

 

I will hi-jack my own thread for a post or two!

Here is what I have feel wise:

Bike squats and weaves a bit while turning under hard acceleration (especialy high speed).

Rear feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesnt feel like it bottoms.

Front feels vague during all phases of the turn (turn-in to exit).

Front also feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesn't bottom.

Bike gives a decent freeway ride.

 

Here is the set-up:

Spring rates are unknown but the rear appears to be stock white Sachs.

Last fork / shock service unknown. Suspension fluid type / quantity unknown.

185 lbs geared-up rider and 1/2 tank of fuel.

Rear sag - 6mm bike only

-34mm laden

Front sag -25mm bike only

-35mm laden

Rear Rebound -13 clicks out

Rear Compression -23 clicks out

 

Front Rebound - 9 clicks out

Front Compression - 12 clicks out

 

Forks through upper clamp 10mm.

Bitubo damper set minimum.

 

I want to change both fork and shock fluid before I condemn the chassis.

I am 100% an air gap method guy.

To be honest I havent done much but back the compression out for better compliance but I feel it is low speed compression damping (fork and shock) / combined with a bit too much rear sag that are causing my issues.

[Guest ratchethack]

Here is what I have feel wise:

Bike squats and weaves a bit while turning under hard acceleration (especialy high speed).

Rear feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesnt feel like it bottoms.

Front feels vague during all phases of the turn (turn-in to exit).

Front also feels harsh over sharp bumps but doesn't bottom.

Bike gives a decent freeway ride.

 

Here is the set-up:

Spring rates are unknown but the rear appears to be stock white Sachs.

Last fork / shock service unknown. Suspension fluid type / quantity unknown.

185 lbs geared-up rider and 1/2 tank of fuel.

Rear sag - 6mm bike only

-34mm laden

Front sag -25mm bike only

-35mm laden

Rear Rebound -13 clicks out

Rear Compression -23 clicks out

 

Front Rebound - 9 clicks out

Front Compression - 12 clicks out

 

Forks through upper clamp 10mm.

Bitubo damper set minimum.

 

I want to change both fork and shock fluid before I condemn the chassis.

I am 100% an air gap method guy.

To be honest I havent done much but back the compression out for better compliance but I feel it is low speed compression damping (fork and shock) / combined with a bit too much rear sag that are causing my issues.

Steve, assuming sags were measured correctly, IMHO f'er starters, it looks to me like a CLASSIC case of rear spring far too low rate for your riding weight, preloaded too far in a futile attempt to compensate. It also looks like the spring rate in the forks may be a little stiff, but in combo with that rear shock spring, I'd expect some histrionics like wot you describle because of the delta between stiff fork springs and soft shock spring.

 

IMHO you can damp the living daylights out o' this in both directions at both ends without taking the edge off the fundamental problem.

 

More'n likely, y'er riding on substantially reduced rear suspension travel as a result of overly-preloaded spring. I had exactly the same symptoms at the back end and did the same as you did until I replaced my shock.

 

My approach would be to upgrade the shock spring and/or if it makes sense, do the shock at the same time and leave the fork alone until you get the rear end dialed in.

 

Looks like you had the right idea with raising the fork tubes by 10 mm in an attempt to compensate for rear squat. A proper rate shock spring would make it a Brand New World, IMHO.

 

In case you haven't seen these, I've found 'em to be superb guides:

 

http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html

 

http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

Hope this helps!

[FuelCooler]

Steve, assuming sags were measured correctly, IMHO f'er starters, it looks to me like a CLASSIC case of rear spring far too low rate for your riding weight, preloaded too far in a futile attempt to compensate. It also looks like the spring rate in the forks may be a little stiff, but in combo with that rear shock spring, I'd expect some histrionics like wot you describle because of the delta between stiff fork springs and soft shock spring.

 

My approach would be to upgrade the shock spring and/or shock at the same time and leave the fork alone until you get the rear end dialed in.

 

Looks like you had the right idea with raising the fork tubes by 10 mm in an attempt to compensate for rear squat. A proper rate shock spring would make it a Brand New World, IMHO.

 

In case you haven't seen these, I've found 'em to be superb guides:

 

http://www.strappe.com/suspension.html

 

http://www.racetech.com/articles/SuspensionAndSprings.htm

 

 

 

http://www.peterverdonedesigns.com/oilheight.htm

 

Hope this helps!

Thanks Ratchet,

Yeah, anymore preload in the rear and I will lose the bike only sag.

FWIW it was 20 deg. F when I did the sag. The fork numbers look strange to me (25 / 35) too close?

 

Racetech method for measuring sag, BTW.

 

Have you got your Wilbers shock dialed in yet? I am soooo close to going that way as well.

[Guest ratchethack]

Thanks Ratchet,

Yeah, anymore preload in the rear and I will lose the bike only sag.

FWIW it was 20 deg. F when I did the sag. The fork numbers look strange to me (25 / 35) too close?

 

Racetech method for measuring sag, BTW.

 

Have you got your Wilbers shock dialed in yet? I am soooo close to going that way as well.

Sag shouldn't be affected by low temps. I'd watch for stiction error, and measure accordingly, though.

 

NOTE: A 95 N/mm spring should be about right, IMHO. That's wot I have and it's a tad high for my weight (somewhere in the toward-sporting range), same as the Wilbers progressive fork springs.

 

Well, I've got the Wibers shock preloaded and locked down and am entirely satisfied. Klaus at Wilbers USA is no souch and has been quite responsive WRT Q's after the fact. He custom built it and set 'er up EXACTLY to my specs. I've just begun to twiddle with high and low speed comp damping, but that's just fine-tuning, and that'll never end. . . Couldn't be too much happier -- that is, unless they provided a Fraulein mit der rücksprache, Ja?

[dlaing]

I agree completely with Ratchet

The vagueness in the front will probably be improved by a heavier spring on the rear.

Hypercoils are less than $70 US.

A new shock would be an even better solution if you can afford it.

I finally bit the bullet and ordered a Penske 2 way today

I hope I don't regret not getting a 3 way damping adjuster shock. But I could not justify the price for my budget.

Still I suspect your fluid level in the forks may be too high and your spring rate not enough....but it is just a gut feeling based on the sag numbers, vagueness, and no bottoming.

How close to bottoming the front are you if you put the brakes on in a road dip or over a speed bump?

If it does not bottom, the fluid level could be restricting your travel. If it bottoms, your front may be fine, as those are not bad sag numbers.

I would be sure to measure your fork fluid level before changing out the oil.

Balancing the front to rear is important, and you will get great benefits just by getting the right spring weight at the rear.

[Guest ratchethack]

I agree completely with Ratchet

I wish you wouldn't do that, Dave. It makes me nervous.

 

Just kidding, Dave!

[dlaing]

I wish you wouldn't do that, Dave. It makes me nervous.

 

Just kidding, Dave!

It scares me, too.

[BrianG]

OK you pirates! At least we have the suspension specs in one place here!

 

I found a great place for nuts and bolts for the restoration of this thing. I managed to rip up a lot of socket-head (Allen key) fasteners in this adventure because Luigi forgot the anti-seize! There is nobody in Canada that can source the metric sizes and varities of heads that the Guzzi uses.

 

I found this place in the USA http://www.boltdepot.com and they have all of the sizes and varieties that the bike requires, in steel or stainless, and in unit or bulk quantities!!

 

Ya, I'm going glitzy with all stainless steel fasteners, just to go with the new powder coating of the porkchops and frame bits.

[FuelCooler]

OK you pirates! At least we have the suspension specs in one place here!

 

Ratchethack, dlaing and others,

Do you want to start a new thread (I know this stuff has been covered before) or can you suggest an existing one to attach it to?

I would like to continue with the fork /shock topic but we will bog down this gearbox thread if we don't do something quick!

 

My gearbox fasteners looked new and came out easy. Although, too new compared to the other fasteners on the bike . Thanks for the link BrianG. That looks like a great source.