Forward foot position

[John in Leeds]

Nice work on the controls. If in the end you do not build more copies, there is another option fro those wanting controls moved forward and down. That is the Motobits foot controls. That's what I use.

 

 

I think the attractive element here Greg is the extra room, probably twice as much as anything else available (correct me if I'm wrong). There is only one small concern for me: does the much increased length (5 inches) of control levers make a real difference to the feel of the rear brake (could give much more power) and is gear selection less precise? The positioning seems absolutely ideal for the leg.

[Ryland3210]

I think the attractive element here Greg is the extra room, probably twice as much as anything else available (correct me if I'm wrong). There is only one small concern for me: does the much increased length (5 inches) of control levers make a real difference to the feel of the rear brake (could give much more power) and is gear selection less precise? The positioning seems absolutely ideal for the leg.

 

It's actually 5.5 inches.

 

There is no difference to the feel of either the brake or gear selection because the ratios were kept the same.

 

In the case of the brake lever, the distance from the pivot point to the brake cylinder actuating rod was increased by the same percentage as the distance from the pivot point to the foot pad. This can be seen in the assembly pictures. In the case of the gear selector, the original steel stamping actuating the gear selector actuating rod is replaced with one that increases the distance from the pivot point by the same percentage as the distance from the pivot point to the foot pad.

[John in Leeds]

It's actually 5.5 inches.

 

There is no difference to the feel of either the brake or gear selection because the ratios were kept the same.

 

In the case of the brake lever, the distance from the pivot point to the brake cylinder actuating rod was increased by the same percentage as the distance from the pivot point to the foot pad. This can be seen in the assembly pictures. In the case of the gear selector, the original steel stamping actuating the gear selector actuating rod is replaced with one that increases the distance from the pivot point by the same percentage as the distance from the pivot point to the foot pad.

 

 

It just gets better - I should have guessed from the quality of the finish that you wouldn't have missed out on the basic principles. TOP

[Ryland3210]

I think the attractive element here Greg is the extra room, probably twice as much as anything else available (correct me if I'm wrong). There is only one small concern for me: does the much increased length (5 inches) of control levers make a real difference to the feel of the rear brake (could give much more power) and is gear selection less precise? The positioning seems absolutely ideal for the leg.

 

Before I decided to do this project, I had purchased a set of Centauro controls. It looked like an improvement, but one of the parts was backordered. Weeks went by. I was disappointed in the poor quality of the die casting and amazed to see voids, a sure sign of running the die too cold, cold metal, or fill time too long. This had been somewhat masked by heavy sand blasting. The heavy forged steel footpeg brackets weren't in keeping with the lightweight design of the rest of the bike either. I could see some logic to this, since they relied on the step on the "pork chop" to prevent rotation. That also limited how long the bracket could be made without risking shearing off the step if one stood on the pegs. On my design, two screws to fasten the brackets eliminate that concern, and allow the use of high strength lightweight aluminium.

 

All this, and the fact that the improvement in foot position was only marginal to me, motivated me to try and optimize leg position with a clean sheet of paper design.

[kjrowe]

Nice work!

how do you mamage to get so many ugly pics

[Guest ratchethack]

Looking for the best of two worlds, I designed and built a set of peg brackets, brake and shift levers to move my foot position forward and slightly down.

John, this looks like beautiful work, well thought out and extremely well executed. I have an appreciation for wot must've been involved here and my hat's off to you!

 

I suspect this may be just the ticket for you and many others seeking improved riding comfort.

 

When it comes to ergo's, we're all different, eh? Nothing like a tailored suit vs. "off the rack".

 

Some do fine with cruiser ergo's. For me, a cruiser riding position is a torture rack. To each his own.

 

I hope you don't mind a different point of view here? Some may or may not find value in it??

 

I've given riding ergo's lots of careful thought due to a fairly serious lower back injury (skiing) and significantly hammered knees, achilles tendons, and hip joints (decades of distance running), both of which I was eventually forced to give up due to permanent, semi-serious damage. Just f'er a little perspective, I'm no stranger to lumbar supports, back slings, traction, hot and cold treatments, orthopedic surgeon's offices, chiropractors, sports trainers, rehab., etc., -- nor am I a stranger to the House o' Pain (the likes o' which no kind of prescription pain killer can touch at triple and quad dosages).

 

Thankfully, I'm perfectly comfortable on the Guzzi. This even makes sense to my Chiro.

 

I've sought after "correct" bike ergo's to the point that both my big single trailie and Guzzi are more comfortable on the road for me now than driving a car. It's been my experience that there are trade-off considerations when making changes to every point of contact with the machine. Many riders appear to be unaware of these trade-offs when seeking relief of an immediate point of pain or irritation after a relatively short "trial period".

 

When you move pegs forward, it's important to keep in mind that a couple o' things happen:

 

1. You lose the stock weight balance distribution between bars, seat and pegs. One o' the casualties here is the instant ease of unweighting the seat afforded by the stock peg location. IMHO it makes it more of an effort and less natural and less comfortable to get up forward over the front wheel in the twisties for improved balance and neutral handling. For me these would be significant drawbacks, not just on winding mountain roads, but in traffic and on the slab. YMMV.

 

2. There's more weight on the tailbone and spine. For those who suffer from "ass-bite" syndrome, where the seat tends to grow teeth after a few hours, this can become more significant after moving pegs forward, making a custom seat necessary where it wasn't prior to peg relocation. In my case, my lower back would complain early and often (and has on other bikes with pegs farther forward). For those who already have a custom seat that suits them better than stock, moving pegs forward may make that custom seat more susceptible to a return of "ass-bite". YMMV.

 

When I took delivery of my Guzzi, I'd carefully evaluated ergo's and my buying decision was weighted heavily on wot I already knew from past moto experience I needed as far as ergo's. Despite this, my first few hours on the road were UNCOMFORTABLE -- as I'd previously anticipated might be the case to some degree -- in the knees and wrists. Not wanting to jump to conclusions, and based on past experience, I put more miles on the bike, then more, and even more. What happened was that I began to condition my beat-up bones to the ergo's of the bike. It got better and better, to the point where eventually there was NO discomfort or tension at all, regardless of time in the saddle with all stock gear -- seat, bars, and pegs. I've always ridden with balls of my feet on the pegs. Grippy rubber hose on the Guzzi pegs made for superior traction. I wouldn't know how to improve on ergo comfort from here, but again, and as always, YMMV.

 

Not everyone has the same range of motion, or is capable of "conditioning" themselves. Did I mention YMMV.

 

Just throwing out a few "pro's & con's" kinda thoughts in case anyone's interested.

[Guest SantaFeRider]

I would be interested in a set for a V-11 Le Mans if it comes at around $ 300

[Guest SantaFeRider]

Nice work on the controls. If in the end you do not build more copies, there is another option fro those wanting controls moved forward and down. That is the Motobits foot controls. That's what I use.

 

 

Greg, I was under the impression the Motobits moved the controls down and back.

 

What is the range difference in those you have?

 

Price?

 

Thanks.

[badmotogoozer]

Ratch - couple points...

 

Check his pics - you'll see his body is actually now allowed to sit farther forward. I had this same problem - long legs and pegs up and back forced me farther back on the seat. Moving my pegs down and forward actually allowed me to get weight over the front wheel easier. It also allowed me to get my weight off the seat easier as my knees were no longer bent past 90deg.

 

Having that extra room also allows more room to fidgit about - made long rides much better.

 

For a tall person I think this will be an excellent mod!

 

I've been thinking about doing a similar thing for the passenger pegs. But since I no longer have a pillion passenger it has become very low priority!

 

cheers,

 

Rj

[John in Leeds]

 

I'll work up what it would cost to make up some sets of parts. A lot depends on how many I am asked to make up. I'll absorb the CNC programing and R&D costs, but there is still the pattern and tooling cost for the shift lever. Designing the shift lever was quite difficult and required a little trial and error. I made mine the laborious way with no pattern or tooling costs, but for any quantity, investment casting followed by heat treating and finishing would make more sense.

 

I'll keep checking this thread to see how much interest there is, and meanwhile figure out the costs versus quantity.

 

 

I've been chewing this over and realise that the cost of this work is going to be fairly high, non the less I would like a set as they will really make my riding much more enjoyable and extend my possible miles per day. This Bike is likely to stay with me a long time so I don't mind paying significant money for what is a considerable improvement. Looking forward to taking delivery if you take it on.

[Ryland3210]

I still haven't got all my production costs figured out, but hope to next week. It's tough to come in at a reasonable price, even with me absorbing the prototype cost. I'm 90% sure I'll go for it. If I get 10 or more interested, that will push me over the edge. There would have to be a volume many several times that to get to the $300 price point from what I already know.

 

Thanks much for the complements.

[Ryland3210]

Hi Ratchethack,

 

Good to hear from you. I'm not in full accord on some of your analysis, so please see my responses below.

 

 

 

 

John, this looks like beautiful work, well thought out and extremely well executed. I have an appreciation for wot must've been involved here and my hat's off to you!

 

I suspect this may be just the ticket for you and many others seeking improved riding comfort.

 

 

When you move pegs forward, it's important to keep in mind that a couple o' things happen:

 

1. You lose the stock weight balance distribution between bars, seat and pegs. One o' the casualties here is the instant ease of unweighting the seat afforded by the stock peg location. IMHO it makes it more of an effort and less natural and less comfortable to get up forward over the front wheel in the twisties for improved balance and neutral handling. For me these would be significant drawbacks, not just on winding mountain roads, but in traffic and on the slab. YMMV.

 

Response: It seems to me that moving the lower legs forward moves the center of gravity forward. There is a slight change as a result. I'm not sure I understand how the stock peg location makes it instantly easy to unweight the seat. I find it much easier to push down on my feet when they aren't tucked under my rear end. For example, it is far easier for me to stand up now if I want to stretch out my knees.

 

2. There's more weight on the tailbone and spine. For those who suffer from "ass-bite" syndrome, where the seat tends to grow teeth after a few hours, this can become more significant after moving pegs forward, making a custom seat necessary where it wasn't prior to peg relocation. In my case, my lower back would complain early and often (and has on other bikes with pegs farther forward). For those who already have a custom seat that suits them better than stock, moving pegs forward may make that custom seat more susceptible to a return of "ass-bite". YMMV.

 

Response: I find there is less weight on the tailbone and spine. You and I have the opposite experience here. Further, I find that it also requires less pressure on the arms to hold up the upper body, which adds to the comfort of my ride.

 

When I took delivery of my Guzzi, I'd carefully evaluated ergo's and my buying decision was weighted heavily on wot I already knew from past moto experience I needed as far as ergo's. Despite this, my first few hours on the road were UNCOMFORTABLE -- as I'd previously anticipated might be the case to some degree -- in the knees and wrists. Not wanting to jump to conclusions, and based on past experience, I put more miles on the bike, then more, and even more. What happened was that I began to condition my beat-up bones to the ergo's of the bike. It got better and better, to the point where eventually there was NO discomfort or tension at all, regardless of time in the saddle with all stock gear -- seat, bars, and pegs. I've always ridden with balls of my feet on the pegs. Grippy rubber hose on the Guzzi pegs made for superior traction. I wouldn't know how to improve on ergo comfort from here, but again, and as always, YMMV.

 

Response: Frankly, my goal was to get immediate gratification in the form of comfort. I had fond memories of riding the Norton with my butt well back on the seat, and knees bent at 90 degrees for thirty years. When I got on the Guzzi, I knew what to do.

 

Not everyone has the same range of motion, or is capable of "conditioning" themselves. Did I mention YMMV.

 

Just throwing out a few "pro's & con's" kinda thoughts in case anyone's interested.

[Guest SantaFeRider]

I still haven't got all my production costs figured out, but hope to next week. It's tough to come in at a reasonable price, even with me absorbing the prototype cost. I'm 90% sure I'll go for it. If I get 10 or more interested, that will push me over the edge. There would have to be a volume many several times that to get to the $300 price point from what I already know.

 

Thanks much for the complements.

 

I would go up to $ 400

 

after I saw your pictures, I realized that moving the pegs forward and not down (as I tought before) is the solution. The Le Mans V-11 seat is fairly wide, and the reach to the clip-ons quite stretched, even for a guy with long arms like I am. I sat on the bike and in trying to reach the bars, I realized the the weight shifts from my butt to my crotch, pulling the femur heads away from the hip sockets and causing me pain and discomfort. However, if I seat on my butt propping my feet forward 5 inches it's a different proposition.

 

I think you hit the solution to the V-11+old geezer rider quite well

[kevdog3019]

As stock, the Lemans does tend to thrust my pelvis forward into the tank as well since the legs are back behind me. I have gone so far as put a towel at the front of the seat to raise it up and not cause this "sliding" forward. Without proper riding pants to buffer the crotch, it's just too uncomfortable. Getting the legs out in front more allows you to sit back more away from the tank. It equates to a more balanced body weight. This does seem to be the answer. Maybe a seat that doesn't slope forward would also help. How's the Rich Maund (sp?) seat for this? I like the look of the stock seat. Do his look much different?

[Ryland3210]

It's taken a while to figure out costs on this project. Sorry for the delay.

 

I will absorb the thousands I've spent to make a set of strong, functional, and good looking parts. I'm very happy with the results.

 

This control relocation kit moves the footpeg positions 140 mm forward and slightly downward, to the standard height of the Centauro model. It substantially reduces the amount of knee flexing without any significant difference in cornering angle. Rider comfort is increased. The original stroke and pressure required for braking and shifting are preserved. Shift and brake lever positions are adjustable for rider preference in the same manner as the original. All parts are designed for high strength to weight ratio and long term life.

 

All necessary installation parts and fasteners are provided, including:

Right Footpeg Bracket

Two M10 mounting screws, one M10 elastic stop nut, one 20 X 6.5mm spacer

Brake Lever

One special pivot screw, pivot bushing, two spacers, two M6 screws.

Left Footpeg Bracket

Two M10 mounting screws, two aluminum bracket spacers, one M10 elastic stop nut

Shift Lever

Bell Crank

Transmission connecting rod

 

Fasteners and connecting rod are stainless steel. Aluminum parts are machined billet, except for the Shift Lever, which is a high strength machined aluminum casting.

No special tools are required.

 

The two footpeg brackets, brake lever, and bell crank are machined billet aluminum. (6061-T6 high strength)

 

There are two practical ways to make the rather complex shift lever. If we go with investment casting, the surface finish will be like the footpegs and like the picture of the shift lever I've supplied. If we go with sand casting, the finish will be like the cylinder barrels. In either case, there will be machined surfaces with a polished surface finish where necessary.

 

I need feedback at this point. What it comes down to is $402 for the complete set with the sand cast shift lever and $511 for the complete set with the investment cast finish. There's a big difference in tooling cost.

 

Let's make it:

 

$398 sand cast, $495 investment cast for the complete sets.

 

I've priced it tight and paid some pretty big bills to get this far, so I don't expect to reduce prices in the future. If someone wants to buy 10 or more sets, I might be able to shave something off.

 

Guys, please let me know what you prefer. I need enough orders to return the investment in tooling expense, and have to decide which way to go. If there is enough demand, it might be possible to go both ways.