The Verdict Is In: Sasquatch Exists, Oil Filters Spin Off, And I'm

[Tom M]

BIG DADDY recommends hose clamps on your oil filter too.

 

http://www.motoguzzishop.com/Big_Daddy/Big..._oil_change.htm

[badmotogoozer]

It's OK to be envious Ratcho. Not everyone can be single and happy. Some have even (choke!) married ONE woman! Poor bastards...

 

There is actually one I'm fighting off with a stick. She's like a bloody zombie! Seems to think I'd make a great father for her brats.

 

Most just go away when I tell them bus fare's on the dresser.

 

Rj

[grossohc]

BIG DADDY recommends hose clamps on your oil filter too.

 

http://www.motoguzzishop.com/Big_Daddy/Big..._oil_change.htm

Cheers for that Tom, my daughter is now insisting she helps me the next time i do anything on the bike

gary

[Guest ratchethack]

Charming, indeed! Say Ryan, y'er clearly an experienced Man o' the World. There may be many cows and pigs in her dowry or not, but I don't think this one's a Zombie. Now this is just a guess Ryan, but I'd wager she's likely got some serious low self-esteem issues -- Just y'er type. What d'you figure bus fare'd amount to from Vancouver BC to the confluence of the Lungwebungu River in the upper reaches of the Zambezi in north-western Zambia?

[badmotogoozer]

I'd hit it. There's something to be said for a speachless woman.

 

Well, I'm bored. This slumber party is one tickle attack away from a pillow fight.

 

Rj

[Guest ratchethack]

Well, I'm bored. This slumber party is one tickle attack away from a pillow fight.

 

Rj

Oh Jeez, I'm SO SORRY, Ryan!

 

I reckon this cozy little time we've had together hasn't been very entertaining after all, has it?

 

Here's the deal.

 

Y'see, I'd begun to get a read lately that you'd been following my posts with y'er trademark very occasional, yet Out o' The Clear Blue Sky, drive-by, "ready.....fire....AIM!", shoot-off-y'er-mouth posts, because you really just lack attention , and you'll take it any way you can get it. D'ya think any o' y'er bus fare b****es might agree?

 

I wouldn't have even noticed, except it occurred to me once, and then many times after that, that you generally weren't actually interested in the topics being discussed at all. NOR did you seem to be nearly as "interested" in anyone else , and all o' this just seemed, well ....er, somewhat odd. . . Best keep an eye peeled kinda thing.....

 

I've just been trying to accomodate you here with the attention you seem to be crying out for, Ryan!

 

Y'see (Part II) You remind me a lot of Bobby, Ryan. Bobby was this kid from down the street when I was in grade-school. I always felt a little sorry f'er the kid.

 

This was before the Quacks came up with hundreds of psycho-babble words for diseases that no one ever had any symptoms of before, but Bobby was probably one o' those "ADD kids". Maybe it was more'n that. Neighborhood screw-up, vandalized property, always flunking out of school, poured gasoline on a neighbor's cat and set it on fire, always in trouble, took lunch money from the little kids, detention, juvie hall, -- I bet you know the drill, don't you Ryan?

 

Anyway, it seems that Bobby was always seeking attention of any kind and by any means, because his parents ignored the kid. Now the SECOND time Bobby set fire to their garage and actually burned it down, his old man evidently gave Bobby a brand new perspective on the meaning of ATTENTION with a leather belt that Bobby never forgot.

 

It seems that by the next summer, Bobby'd learned exactly wot it took to get the attention he evidently craved. This time he burned down their house. Then they moved away and Bobby went to military school and I never heard wot happened to Bobby after that.

 

Sound at all familiar, Ryan?

 

Enquiring minds just gotta know!

[badmotogoozer]

So your real name is Bobby then? You're not the only sleuth on the forum!

 

My psychiatrist says the only thing wrong with me is that my inner child needs to start picking up after my inner puppy.

 

Rj

[al_roethlisberger]

 

[snip]

 

Me, I'll spend my $2 on a hose clamp. Might even be able to get two.

 

Rj

 

 

I can't sit through all 8 pages of this thread right now, but a quick question:

 

Where do you put the hose clamp as a safety? Can someone post a drawing or photo of one installed, and show where the clamp would "hit" to keep the filter from spinning?

 

I don't have my bike in this city right now, so can't go look

 

Al

 

 

 

EDIT: oops, found the post just a few before, and this link:

 

http://www.motoguzzishop.com/Big_Daddy/Big..._oil_change.htm

 

[Guest Gary Cheek]

Al,

There was an excellent photo posted by Greg on this site a few months ago. It should show up with a search.Should be pretty obvious once you get the sump off.

[Ryland3210]

John, if y'er still following this (my apologies again f'er all the unwarranted sturm und drang -- I reckon I had a real pantload goin' there. . . ) I'd be interested in your feedback on this.

 

Looks to me like the gasket groove is designed to deform the gasket so that at correct compression, the gasket extrudes inward against oil line pressure. Seems like a reasonable design approach to me.

 

Your take?

 

Based on the numbers given:

Gasket thickness 0.208, width 0.155

Groove outside wall depth 0.155, inside wall depth 0.130, here's what I come up with:

 

It would take .85 turns for the outer lip of the can to bottom out, at 74.5% squeeze. However, that would require the gasket to extrude 0.33 inches through the narrow gap of 0.025 between the inner lip and the block. This is not realistic to expect from the gasket material. What is likely to happen, is that the gasket extrudes partly towards the inside and somewhat less towards the outside as it is compressed. I would expect the torque required to pinch the outer extruded portion hard enough to push it back towards the inside to be extremely high. Furthermore, for that to happen, to reach .85 turns, 25.5% of the gasket cross section has to be extruded towards the inside-again would require extreme torque.

 

What is likely in this case is that torque increases very rapidly as soon as the gasket makes contact with the block, and the installer quits at somewhere near 0.7 turns. If the installer attempts to get to 3/4 turns, I would not be surprised to see signs of permanent compression of the gasket when the filter is removed.

 

A better design would use a 0.225 thick gasket, keep the groove depth at 0.155, and widen the groove to 0.225. That provides for 69% squeeze, with the gasket just filling the groove as the can contacts the block. One would feel a linear progression of torque until the can bottomed out at 1-1/8 turns, making it easy to tighten properly. If one instead stopped at 3/4 or 1 turn, at least at that point the gasket would still be in elastic compression, preserving the maximum spring like resiliency.

 

As an alternative to achieve the same results, if the groove is left as is, the gasket ID could be increased so its width is 0.107. The problem with this alternative is that the high ratio of gasket thickness to width invites the possibility of the gasket buckling as it is compressed. Therefore, there is no good solution by simply changing the gasket. The groove is simply too narrow to permit the best combination of squeeze percentage and eliminate extrusion.

[Guest ratchethack]

John, many thanks again. I b'lieve I understood 99.998% of that last post! (+/- .002%)

 

It looks to me like your last take on this for the ST 3614 is consistent with the factory sticker, which has a 3/4 turn sign on it.

 

One question that I've had is the shape of the mating surface of the oil pressure relief valve assembly where the gasket seals. Have you assumed this to be flat? I've had it out on my bench, but I can't remember wot it looks like. Do you know that it IS in fact flat, or is there a possibility that it may have a groove of its own, a raised contact area, or some combination thereof?

[Ryland3210]

John, many thanks again. I b'lieve I understood 99.998% of that last post! (+/- .002%)

 

It looks to me like your last take on this for the ST 3614 is consistent with the factory sticker, which has a 3/4 turn sign on it.

 

One question that I've had is the shape of the mating surface of the oil pressure relief valve assembly where the gasket seals. Have you assumed this to be flat? I've had it out on my bench, but I can't remember wot it looks like. Do you know that it IS in fact flat, or is there a possibility that it may have a groove of its own, a raised contact area, or some combination thereof?

 

First, though I haven't actually looked inside this particular filter, generally the pressure relief valve can be found at the end of the central passage (filter flow outlet) farthest from the mating surface of the filter. It's generally spring loaded, which can be seen by looking down the tube. The anti-drainback diaphragm type valve is generally just under the inlet ports. Usually this is just a piece of rubber.

 

I don't assume the filter base assembly is flat, but generally the mating surface on the block is undercut around the male 3/4-16 pipe for attaching the filter and there are ample threads provided, such that there is no possibility of the filter base contacting before the walls of the gasket groove bottom out on the mating surface.

[Guest ratchethack]

John, more semantic stuff. The Guzzi manuals refer to the casting that the oil filter threads onto as the oil pressure relief valve assembly. That's wot I was referring to. It's not actually "the block". But I think I understand the point you're making. Dammit, I wonder if I've got a photo of it somewhere??

[dlaing]

Based on the numbers given:

Gasket thickness 0.208, width 0.155

Groove outside wall depth 0.155, inside wall depth 0.130, here's what I come up with:

 

It would take .85 turns for the outer lip of the can to bottom out, at 74.5% squeeze. However, that would require the gasket to extrude 0.33 inches through the narrow gap of 0.025 between the inner lip and the block. This is not realistic to expect from the gasket material. What is likely to happen, is ...snip

Based on my numbers given:

Gasket thickness 0.1875, width 0.150

Groove outside wall depth 0.1475, inside wall depth 0.130, groove width 0.155 here's what I come up with:

 

It would take .64 turns for the outer lip of the can to bottom out at 78.7% squeeze.

So, less gasket would be pressured to extrude, dude But still not realistic to expect from the gasket material. What is likely to happen, if there is not much air in the gasket, is that the extrusion will pinch. Also, possibly the inner ring of groove will pull tighter than the outer ring, closing off the extrusion even more.

I think it would take excessive torque to get metal to metal contact, but so far the math suggests we get metal to metal contact at 3/4 turn, which is also the recommendation on my filter's sticker (note: sticker must always removed before installation)

....But, one thing that we failed to note is that the groove is not flat but rounded and it pushes the gasket out of the bottom of the groove.

The gasket thickness .1875 minus the groove depth .1475 is .0400", but my measurements of the gasket above the groove outer rim indicate kind of vague measurements between .060 and .065" resulting in less squeeze and more turn 0.96 to 1.04, which would at .0625" perfectly match an engineered one full turn.

Because they specified 3/4 turn, there is no metal contact. So the gasket is smartly extruding ~.025" into the curve in the bottom of the groove and towards the inner ring of the groove .005.

Not as bad a design as I had thought after my first and second measurements

Still I am not convinced that 3/4 turn will provide total security.

Perhaps 7/8 turn would ensure it won't come loose.

I am curious what the torque numbers are at every degree eighth turn.

I guess it would vary, mostly dependent on how oxidized the gasket is????

[g.forrest]

does anyone know what this thread is abought..F.I.I.K